Liberals, riddle me this on healthcare proposal?

[Harry Dresden]

That is President Obama's plan, to give you a choice of what you have or a public plan. He's made that very clear. Those opposed to choice pretend he didn't say that.

no you are wrong,as usual,....those opposed are saying that because the govt is offering ins.that sooner or later the companies that offer the private plans will drop the plans,feeling why should we spend money on this if a system is out there that they can opt into,and the more Companies that do so,the less choice you will have.....Got IT....

But Harry....
The companies that are providing health care as a benefit now are dropping these benefits as we speak because they are too costly for the companies to carry and still be profitable. About a million policies each year so far, being dropped...and as health care becomes more expensive even more businesses are dropping this benefit or reducing the health care coverage to a minimum, and charging the employee more and more for it, in order to afford it....

I think there is going to be a problem with such, one way or the other...there is already a problem NOW with this happening, as said....thus the need for some kind of reform.

care

i agree Care...i was just correcting Junkhead who was saying that the opposers of this plan PRETEND he did not say what he said....thats bull....

 

[Political Junky]

Well, there are MANY Democrats that are upset with Obama's health care reform proposals because IT IS NOT UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE, and it is still done through the private sector, for profit, middle man...the insurance companies...

Obama's health care proposal is not a government run universal health plan, NOT EVEN CLOSE, so why people keep acting like it is, is utterly ridiculous to me...

talk to Bobo and Chrissy....well Bobo anyway Chris will just say the same shit he has said since someone told him about it....

You appear to repeat the same stuff you've been fed by the GOP and the private insurance people. The $millions they spend on propaganda seems to have worked on you.

 

[sealybobo]

Every other Western democracy has a single payer healthcare system, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare. Why? Because they don't have to pay liability lawyers, insurance company overhead, and Big Pharma. A single payer system is more efficient.

.....same old shit.... and .....

But its the truth Harry. Its the facts. If you don't give a fuck, then quit pretending to care. And don't act like you want to fix the problems Chris laid out for you. You don't give a fuck.

So go get surgery (elective of course) and cut out a few rows of ribs so you can tea bag yourself.

 

[Nik]

I think that's going to be the end result of all this. A choice to keep your private coverage and an affordable government run product available as well.

That is President Obama's plan, to give you a choice of what you have or a public plan. He's made that very clear. Those opposed to choice pretend he didn't say that.

no you are wrong,as usual,....those opposed are saying that because the govt is offering ins.that sooner or later the companies that offer the private plans will drop the plans,feeling why should we spend money on this if a system is out there that they can opt into,and the more Companies that do so,the less choice you will have.....Got IT....

Why would they drop the plans if they can get cheaper plans with private insurers?

You do know that the public plan isn't going to be free, right?

 

[Political Junky]

I think that's going to be the end result of all this. A choice to keep your private coverage and an affordable government run product available as well.

That is President Obama's plan, to give you a choice of what you have or a public plan. He's made that very clear. Those opposed to choice pretend he didn't say that.

no you are wrong,as usual,....those opposed are saying that because the govt is offering ins.that sooner or later the companies that offer the private plans will drop the plans,feeling why should we spend money on this if a system is out there that they can opt into,and the more Companies that do so,the less choice you will have.....Got IT....

What happened to free enterprise?
Private companies can't compete? Can't earn their $multi-million salaries?

 

[JimJones]

Can you post anymore rightwing alarmist propaganda? Have you read the actual proposals working their ways through congressional committees? Because if you had, you'd see that there isn't an invasion of privacy anymore than your hospital invades your privacy, and that the government doesn't do anything medical and only sets up the system of finances for those who aren't insured. Give me a break! All this is Lumbaugh-barf that's been swallowed and then re-thrown back up.

Keep on drinking that government Kool-aid brother, bottoms up!

JimJones (me) says drink up !!

 

[jeffrockit]

So you are OK with it getting worse? Gov run anything....The VA, DMV, Education. They are not my idea of well run.

I'm a vet and the VA works really well, actually. The few problems it does have would be taken care of with sufficient funding, but since conservative politicians have historically under-funded the VA and then claimed that it doesn't work well (because they under-funded it) it hasn't gotten the money it needed. Clinton helped improve the VA, and now with Obama the VA is getting more money. The Denver VA is, in fact, moving to a new building that it is under construction currently. The VA in Grand Junction is just as nice as any hospital that I've ever been to, and nicer than many.

The DMV, well, that's state run. And something SHOULD be done about it. Not only do they fuck up, but they're inefficient. But, like I said, that is something the states deal with.

Education is also state run, but it receives extra funding from the FED and has to follow certain guidelines to receive Federal funding. Public schools, except in wealthy counties, typically need more money and since they don't receive money because the public is unwilling to pay more taxes...well, you can see there is a flaw in that system. Complaining about public schools and then not wanting to fund them seems kinda stupid to me.

My father in law and step father are both veterans. They have 6 month waits for anything. I am curious to check stats as to how many positive stories verses negative from vets.

Not true about education as a vast amount of $$ has and is dumped into it. IMO The teacher's unions have helped in the total mismanagement of education budgets. The fact that they are absolutely against vouchers which would create competition and the fact that it is nearly impossible to get rid of bad teachers, makes for a very poor education system.

Adding to all of that, President O'dumbass appoints Arne Duncan,who used to be Chief of Chicago schools, as his Secretary of Education, . One of the worst systems in the country. That appointment should really turn things around.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

My father in law and step father are both veterans. They have 6 month waits for anything. I am curious to check stats as to how many positive stories verses negative from vets.[/quote}

Like I said, if it were better funded.... And to see specialists there is a long wait at the VA. But there's a long wait anywhere to see a specialist.

Not true about education as a vast amount of $$ has and is dumped into it. IMO The teacher's unions have helped in the total mismanagement of education budgets. The fact that they are absolutely against vouchers which would create competition and the fact that it is nearly impossible to get rid of bad teachers, makes for a very poor education system.

Well, I can either trust teachers who are very underpaid or I can trust a government bureaucracy about education. Who am I more likely to trust? The teachers. They sure as hell aren't doing it for the money. And anyone who supports No Child Left Behind either has no idea how it works, or is dogmatic in their political beliefs.

Adding to all of that, President O'dumbass appoints Arne Duncan,who used to be Chief of Chicago schools, as his Secretary of Education, . One of the worst systems in the country. That appointment should really turn things around.

Well, I agree with you on that one. Not necessarily that the Chicago school system is one of the worst in the country because I haven't heard of read anything about it (and Texas has a creationist education secretary and that's got to be very close to WORST in the nation), but it seems a little like political payback to appoint Duncan instead of appointing a better experienced and successful candidate.

 

[immto]

Universal Health Care, the main issue they have in getting it done is the cost. Not anymore. All they need to do is have those bloody rich pay a little more of their fair share. It's almost like those idiots are trying to eliminate as many jobs as they can, kill any chance of a recovery. It's almost sick to accuse those who make $250k rich. I don't know what planet Politicians are living on but a family with an income of $250K probably is not vacationing in the Hampton's and certainly are not cruising the Caribbean in their own private yacht.

This is an attack based on wealth envy pure and simple. The politicians know darn well that they are in power right now in large part due to the votes of those who make much less than $250K. Most people who do not understand the implications this will have on jobs will simply shrug it off since it will not effect them. Those who do understand are simply part of the minority and there fore pose no threat.

We need to start waking people up. We need the small business owners to start sitting down with their employees and going over the numbers with everyone. Everyone who works for a Small Business needs to understand the liabilities and how much their employment costs. Then small business owners need to be blunt with their people and explain how much this tax will effect them. Spell out how many jobs will be cut if this goes forward.

I fear this may be the last chance we have to turn the tide on this one. If you love freedom and think capitalism works I implore you! You need to call your Senators, Urge all you know to call their Senators. Hell Call everyone, Tell Everyone. This and the Climate Change bill have the power to transform the face of our nation as we know it into a place where were the only the truly rich can afford to light their homes and we wait for months to see a doctor.

 

[Old Rocks]

The public healthcare option is a De Facto single payer system. It is designed to push private insurance over the cliff. All the usual lib suspects are on record as having said as much.

You bet. I would like a system like Canada or Taiwan. Time to kick the parasites out of the sytem and get on with a real Health Care System in our nation.

 

[Old Rocks]

I think that's going to be the end result of all this. A choice to keep your private coverage and an affordable government run product available as well.

That is President Obama's plan, to give you a choice of what you have or a public plan. He's made that very clear. Those opposed to choice pretend he didn't say that.

no you are wrong,as usual,....those opposed are saying that because the govt is offering ins.that sooner or later the companies that offer the private plans will drop the plans,feeling why should we spend money on this if a system is out there that they can opt into,and the more Companies that do so,the less choice you will have.....Got IT....

Got it. Then terrible things can happen like in Europe. Things like paying only half of what we pay per capita for our health care. Things like a longer average lifespan and a healthier old age. Things like no one losing their home and going bankrupt because of medical bills. Things like a much lower infant mortality rate because mothers that have a very low income will still get good prenatal care. Such a socialist idea, that.

Here is where you can find out about how the Health Care Systems in Britain, Germany, Switzerland, Japan, and Taiwan really work.

FRONTLINE: sick around the world | PBS

 

[Old Rocks]

Hell, when the insurance companies got hold of my medical records, they no longer wanted me as a client. So no, I'm really not that concerned. Am I concerned about rationing? Of course I am. I've already felt the blunt of rationing with this great private system we have.

So you are OK with it getting worse? Gov run anything....The VA, DMV, Education. They are not my idea of well run.

I hope that you face getting private insurance with a pre-existing condition. Perhaps then you will not be so quick to critisize a health plan that will cover all.

As far as the VA goes, this is my personal experiance. My father, a WW2 vet, entered a VA hospital at 57 with advanced prostate cancer. They opened him up like a fish. And used chemo and radiation afterwards. He died at 89, and worked, hunted deer and elk up to the time he was 83.

 

[Old Rocks]

Can you post anymore rightwing alarmist propaganda? Have you read the actual proposals working their ways through congressional committees? Because if you had, you'd see that there isn't an invasion of privacy anymore than your hospital invades your privacy, and that the government doesn't do anything medical and only sets up the system of finances for those who aren't insured. Give me a break! All this is Lumbaugh-barf that's been swallowed and then re-thrown back up.

As opposed to the lefts alarmist tactics ?

OMGWEREINANECONOMICCRISIS..........we get that piece of dung stimulus bill

OMGWEREINANENVIRONMENTALCRISIS...........we get a bigger piece of dung cap and trade bill

OMGWEHAVEAHEALTHCARECRISIS .........we'll get another piece of dung guvment "healthcare" bill ......

But hey, let's spend all our time demonizing Limbaugh .......

And have your bunch supplied us with, except two failed wars, and an economic debacle.

 

[Bern80]

That is President Obama's plan, to give you a choice of what you have or a public plan. He's made that very clear. Those opposed to choice pretend he didn't say that.

no you are wrong,as usual,....those opposed are saying that because the govt is offering ins.that sooner or later the companies that offer the private plans will drop the plans,feeling why should we spend money on this if a system is out there that they can opt into,and the more Companies that do so,the less choice you will have.....Got IT....

Got it. Then terrible things can happen like in Europe. Things like paying only half of what we pay per capita for our health care. Things like a longer average lifespan and a healthier old age. Things like no one losing their home and going bankrupt because of medical bills. Things like a much lower infant mortality rate because mothers that have a very low income will still get good prenatal care. Such a socialist idea, that.

Here is where you can find out about how the Health Care Systems in Britain, Germany, Switzerland, Japan, and Taiwan really work.

FRONTLINE: sick around the world | PBS

For the I don't know what teenth time now. The 'because it works there (France (which is debateable, as it is absoultely hemorraging money)) it will work here' mantra, may be the single worst argument there is for OUR government running healthcare. It isn't apples to apples Old Rocks for brains.

For starters, they aren't a healthier nation because of their healthcare system. They simply live healthier lives. They aren't addicted to fast food like we are. They have fewer people and more doctors to go around per capita as well.

 

[Political Junky]

no you are wrong,as usual,....those opposed are saying that because the govt is offering ins.that sooner or later the companies that offer the private plans will drop the plans,feeling why should we spend money on this if a system is out there that they can opt into,and the more Companies that do so,the less choice you will have.....Got IT....

Got it. Then terrible things can happen like in Europe. Things like paying only half of what we pay per capita for our health care. Things like a longer average lifespan and a healthier old age. Things like no one losing their home and going bankrupt because of medical bills. Things like a much lower infant mortality rate because mothers that have a very low income will still get good prenatal care. Such a socialist idea, that.

Here is where you can find out about how the Health Care Systems in Britain, Germany, Switzerland, Japan, and Taiwan really work.

FRONTLINE: sick around the world | PBS

For the I don't know what teenth time now. The 'because it works there (France (which is debateable, as it is absoultely hemorraging money)) it will work here' mantra, may be the single worst argument there is for OUR government running healthcare. It isn't apples to apples Old Rocks for brains.

For starters, they aren't a healthier nation because of their healthcare system. They simply live healthier lives. They aren't addicted to fast food like we are. They have fewer people and more doctors to go around per capita as well.

It seems most of your energy, and other conservatives, is spent on attempting to show how others plans don't work, and defending the bloated system we have here now. Our present system guarantees outrageous profits by denying treatment to folks who paid premiums in good faith, or to those who can't afford the inflated rates to begin with.

 

[Bern80]

Got it. Then terrible things can happen like in Europe. Things like paying only half of what we pay per capita for our health care. Things like a longer average lifespan and a healthier old age. Things like no one losing their home and going bankrupt because of medical bills. Things like a much lower infant mortality rate because mothers that have a very low income will still get good prenatal care. Such a socialist idea, that.

Here is where you can find out about how the Health Care Systems in Britain, Germany, Switzerland, Japan, and Taiwan really work.

FRONTLINE: sick around the world | PBS

For the I don't know what teenth time now. The 'because it works there (France (which is debateable, as it is absoultely hemorraging money)) it will work here' mantra, may be the single worst argument there is for OUR government running healthcare. It isn't apples to apples Old Rocks for brains.

For starters, they aren't a healthier nation because of their healthcare system. They simply live healthier lives. They aren't addicted to fast food like we are. They have fewer people and more doctors to go around per capita as well.

It seems most of your energy, and other conservatives, is spent on attempting to show how others plans don't work, and defending the bloated system we have here now. Our present system guarantees outrageous profits by denying treatment to folks who paid premiums in good faith, or to those who can't afford the inflated rates to begin with.

I have never said there arent problems with the system. Simply that to think it's all hunky dory in terms of medical systems in France, England, Canada is dilusional. There are things that can be done to our system to improve, there's another thread here about it, in fact. I simply dont want it to involve another disgustingly huge governemnt expansion nor do I want my healthcare regualted by as inept, wasteful instution as our government. Given there track record and that it's only getting worse, I dont' see those as unreasonable reservations.

 

[Chris]

no you are wrong,as usual,....those opposed are saying that because the govt is offering ins.that sooner or later the companies that offer the private plans will drop the plans,feeling why should we spend money on this if a system is out there that they can opt into,and the more Companies that do so,the less choice you will have.....Got IT....

Got it. Then terrible things can happen like in Europe. Things like paying only half of what we pay per capita for our health care. Things like a longer average lifespan and a healthier old age. Things like no one losing their home and going bankrupt because of medical bills. Things like a much lower infant mortality rate because mothers that have a very low income will still get good prenatal care. Such a socialist idea, that.

Here is where you can find out about how the Health Care Systems in Britain, Germany, Switzerland, Japan, and Taiwan really work.

FRONTLINE: sick around the world | PBS

For the I don't know what teenth time now. The 'because it works there (France (which is debateable, as it is absoultely hemorraging money)) it will work here' mantra, may be the single worst argument there is for OUR government running healthcare. It isn't apples to apples Old Rocks for brains.

For starters, they aren't a healthier nation because of their healthcare system. They simply live healthier lives. They aren't addicted to fast food like we are. They have fewer people and more doctors to go around per capita as well.

Their healthcare system works better.

Admit it.