Liberals On Abortion

[Dana7360]

Oh, boy, another round of Number-pointed Crazy from the Mail Order Bride From Hell.

Okay, one more time. You guys get your ban on abortion, how are you going to enforce it?

Are you going to lock up women for getting abortions? Because honestly, I don't see anything less than that as being a deterrent, now that we have DIY abortion pills.

Add to that the fact that if they get what they want and the Supreme Court over rules Roe V Wade it sends the issue back to the states.

There will always be at least one state that keeps abortion legal and safe.

That state is mine.

The people of my state voted on it in the early 90s. The ballot initiative issue was whether to keep abortion safe and legal in my state no matter what any judge or congress does. The initiative passed with a good margin. I voted with the majority.

There are organizations in America that we women started and fund privately. We have organizations that do nothing but fund abortions. They also provide funds for transportation and lodging. We women have done this quietly. We stopped depending on our society to support reproductive freedom so we have taken matters in our own hands and have been doing it for decades. I personally have been donating to those organizations since the 80s.

So all a person has to do is travel to another state to get their legal abortion.

Then there's the Ireland solution. Coastal states can have medical ships that go out to international waters to perform perfectly legal abortions.

These far right wing radical extremists might be able to make abortion illegal in their states but they can't do that to all the states and women won't stop having abortions.

 

[rightwinger]

Oh, boy, another round of Number-pointed Crazy from the Mail Order Bride From Hell.

Okay, one more time. You guys get your ban on abortion, how are you going to enforce it?

Are you going to lock up women for getting abortions? Because honestly, I don't see anything less than that as being a deterrent, now that we have DIY abortion pills.

Add to that the fact that if they get what they want and the Supreme Court over rules Roe V Wade it sends the issue back to the states.

There will always be at least one state that keeps abortion legal and safe.

That state is mine.

The people of my state voted on it in the early 90s. The ballot initiative issue was whether to keep abortion safe and legal in my state no matter what any judge or congress does. The initiative passed with a good margin. I voted with the majority.

There are organizations in America that we women started and fund privately. We have organizations that do nothing but fund abortions. They also provide funds for transportation and lodging. We women have done this quietly. We stopped depending on our society to support reproductive freedom so we have taken matters in our own hands and have been doing it for decades. I personally have been donating to those organizations since the 80s.

So all a person has to do is travel to another state to get their legal abortion.

Then there's the Ireland solution. Coastal states can have medical ships that go out to international waters to perform perfectly legal abortions.

These far right wing radical extremists might be able to make abortion illegal in their states but they can't do that to all the states and women won't stop having abortions.

Abortion cruise?

 

[The Purge]

 

[jknowgood]

Too bad for you that abortion isn't murder.

Too bad you weren't aborted.

You have no more point to make so you resort to petty insults. Your concession is duly noted.

Actually everyone of you running around celebrating the more babies murdered the better. Should've been aborted themselves. You don't deserve to enjoy a life.

Nobody is celebrating that kind of thing, you're delusional.

Explain lighting up the new world trade center, celebrating the passing of infanticide.

 

[otto105]

I mean real Liberals, those with integrity and a reputable view of the world, not the mind numbed variety that adhere to the Democrats no matter how insane their current agenda is.




1.Perhaps you’ve noticed that today the strongest Liberals/Democrats are those with the least ability to analyze what they are supporting. As a result, just as Orwell predicted in 1984, they can’t keep straight whether they are at war with Eastasia, or Eurasia. They need not keep track, they simply agree that the enemy at the moment is whoever the leadership says it is.
And today it is the unborn.

Hence, the Liberals were against gay marriage before they were for it. They opposed socialism before they were for it. And they opposed nuclear weapons for Iran before they were in favor of it.
So, no big deal to want to exterminate the defenseless.....

They are clueless to 180° turns by the party. Morons simply march lock-step via the party’s orders.





I came across an interesting real-Liberal essay opposing abortion, and it is instructive to peruse.


2.“Abortion: The Left has betrayed the sanctity of life From The Progressive magazine. Abortion: The Left has betrayed the sanctity of life
Consistency demands concern for the unborn

The abortion issue, more than most, illustrates the occasional tendency of the Left to become so enthusiastic over what is called a "reform" that it forgets to think the issue through. It is ironic that so many on the Left have done on abortion what the conservatives and Cold War liberals did on Vietnam: They marched off in the wrong direction, to fight the wrong war, against the wrong people.

3. Some of us … are now active in the right-to-life movement. We do not enjoy opposing our old friends on the abortion issue, but we feel that we have no choice. We are moved by what pro-life feminists call the "consistency thing" -- the belief that respect for human life demands opposition to abortion, capital punishment, euthanasia, and war. We don't think we have either the luxury or the right to choose some types of killing and say that they are all right, while others are not. A human life is a human life; and if equality means anything, it means that society may not value some human lives over others.




4. Until the last decade, people on the Left and Right generally agreed on one rule: We all protected the young. This was not merely agreement on an ethical question: It was also an expression of instinct, so deep and ancient that it scarcely required explanation. Protection of the young included protection of the unborn, for abortion was forbidden by state laws throughout the United States. Those laws reflected an ethical consensus, not based solely on religious tradition but also on scientific evidence that human life begins at conception. The prohibition of abortion in the ancient Hippocratic Oath is well known.

5. …it is important to ask why the Left in the United States generally accepted legalized abortion. One factor was the popular civil libertarian rationale for freedom of choice in abortion. Many feminists presented it as a right of women to control their own bodies. When the objection was raised that abortion ruins another person's body, they respond that a) it is not a body, just a "blob of protoplasm" (thereby displaying ignorance of biology); or b) it is not really a "person" until it is born.

When it was suggested that this is a wholly arbitrary decision, unsupported by any biology evidence, they said, "Well, that's your point of view. This is a matter of individual conscience, and in a pluralistic society people must be free to follow their consciences."




Thinking Liberals, largely an oxymoron today, continue embracing rectitude over party loyalty.

Yet the American people support keeping Roe V Wade the law of the land by 67%

 

[PoliticalChic]

So 'you guys' means both Liberals and conservatives?


Excellent.....that leaves you with brainless, rabid, and insane savages.

No, actually, it leaves me with sensible people that don't want government up their who-has....

Still waiting for you to tell me how you are going to enforce these laws...

You don't know how laws are enforced?

You're lying again.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Did you write this?

" Right-to-Lifers that claim there is no 'tissue', only baby."

I did. Do you really need a link to prove that some Right-to-Lifers claim that 'personhood' begins at conception?

Anything to make you happy:

“Personhood” laws seek to classify fertilized eggs, zygotes, embryos, and fetuses as “persons,” and to grant them full legal protection under the U.S. Constitution, including the right to life from the moment of conception.

I see I've forced you to insert "some."


Excellent.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Their not trying to ban abortions, just after the heart starts to beat. You still have two months to kill you baby.

It's not a baby until after it's born.

You should be able to terminate a fetus at any time as long as you and your doctor think it's prudent.

It is more than interesting that Democrats use the same policy for infanticide that they did for slavery:

a. If the person was in Mississippi, he was a slave; in Connecticut, the very same person would be free

b. baby in the birth canal can be slaughtered in the most brutal manner; a few centimeters later, and, as the Democrat Governor of Virginia states, it could be decided by the mother.




American's most prodigious serial killer, Kermit Gosnell, is in jail for life.....but what he is guilty of is now permitted by the Democrats of New York.

 

[Taz]

Too bad for you that abortion isn't murder.

Too bad you weren't aborted.

You have no more point to make so you resort to petty insults. Your concession is duly noted.

Actually everyone of you running around celebrating the more babies murdered the better. Should've been aborted themselves. You don't deserve to enjoy a life.

Nobody is celebrating that kind of thing, you're delusional.

Explain lighting up the new world trade center, celebrating the passing of infanticide.

Explain wtf you're talking about first.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I mean real Liberals, those with integrity and a reputable view of the world, not the mind numbed variety that adhere to the Democrats no matter how insane their current agenda is.




1.Perhaps you’ve noticed that today the strongest Liberals/Democrats are those with the least ability to analyze what they are supporting. As a result, just as Orwell predicted in 1984, they can’t keep straight whether they are at war with Eastasia, or Eurasia. They need not keep track, they simply agree that the enemy at the moment is whoever the leadership says it is.
And today it is the unborn.

Hence, the Liberals were against gay marriage before they were for it. They opposed socialism before they were for it. And they opposed nuclear weapons for Iran before they were in favor of it.
So, no big deal to want to exterminate the defenseless.....

They are clueless to 180° turns by the party. Morons simply march lock-step via the party’s orders.





I came across an interesting real-Liberal essay opposing abortion, and it is instructive to peruse.


2.“Abortion: The Left has betrayed the sanctity of life From The Progressive magazine. Abortion: The Left has betrayed the sanctity of life
Consistency demands concern for the unborn

The abortion issue, more than most, illustrates the occasional tendency of the Left to become so enthusiastic over what is called a "reform" that it forgets to think the issue through. It is ironic that so many on the Left have done on abortion what the conservatives and Cold War liberals did on Vietnam: They marched off in the wrong direction, to fight the wrong war, against the wrong people.

3. Some of us … are now active in the right-to-life movement. We do not enjoy opposing our old friends on the abortion issue, but we feel that we have no choice. We are moved by what pro-life feminists call the "consistency thing" -- the belief that respect for human life demands opposition to abortion, capital punishment, euthanasia, and war. We don't think we have either the luxury or the right to choose some types of killing and say that they are all right, while others are not. A human life is a human life; and if equality means anything, it means that society may not value some human lives over others.




4. Until the last decade, people on the Left and Right generally agreed on one rule: We all protected the young. This was not merely agreement on an ethical question: It was also an expression of instinct, so deep and ancient that it scarcely required explanation. Protection of the young included protection of the unborn, for abortion was forbidden by state laws throughout the United States. Those laws reflected an ethical consensus, not based solely on religious tradition but also on scientific evidence that human life begins at conception. The prohibition of abortion in the ancient Hippocratic Oath is well known.

5. …it is important to ask why the Left in the United States generally accepted legalized abortion. One factor was the popular civil libertarian rationale for freedom of choice in abortion. Many feminists presented it as a right of women to control their own bodies. When the objection was raised that abortion ruins another person's body, they respond that a) it is not a body, just a "blob of protoplasm" (thereby displaying ignorance of biology); or b) it is not really a "person" until it is born.

When it was suggested that this is a wholly arbitrary decision, unsupported by any biology evidence, they said, "Well, that's your point of view. This is a matter of individual conscience, and in a pluralistic society people must be free to follow their consciences."




Thinking Liberals, largely an oxymoron today, continue embracing rectitude over party loyalty.

Dear PoliticalChic
Your title was about 2-ABORTION
so I will address that.

Roe V Wade and liberals aren't addressing right to life.
They are addressing DUE PROCESS issues.

The problems are
1. writing/enforcing laws that don't violate DUE PROCESS
2. protecting that Constitutional principle EQUALLY as "right to life"
or BELIEFS in both free choice, right to life, and due process

It's not only about right to life but protecting people's
beliefs and rights regarding ALL these issues EQUALLY.

The Constitution is supposed to defend against ANY belief
or group being imposed or established through Govt.

It's not either/or, but ALL THE ABOVE.

So the solution would be how do we craft legislation
that protects ALL these beliefs/rights EQUALLY
1. Beliefs in and Right to Life
2. Beliefs in and Due Process
3. Beliefs in and Freedom of Choice

How do we protect ALL THREE without denying or discriminating
against any one of these? (SEE 9th Amendment against
disparaging any other rights by enumerating some above others)

The title presaged a real Liberal's view of abortion.

You will see that clearly in the OP.

How about you address what she says.

 

[Taz]

Their not trying to ban abortions, just after the heart starts to beat. You still have two months to kill you baby.

It's not a baby until after it's born.

You should be able to terminate a fetus at any time as long as you and your doctor think it's prudent.

It is more than interesting that Democrats use the same policy for infanticide that they did for slavery:

a. If the person was in Mississippi, he was a slave; in Connecticut, the very same person would be free

b. baby in the birth canal can be slaughtered in the most brutal manner; a few centimeters later, and, as the Democrat Governor of Virginia states, it could be decided by the mother.




American's most prodigious serial killer, Kermit Gosnell, is in jail for life.....but what he is guilty of is now permitted by the Democrats of New York.

Since you hate the US so much, can I crowdfund you one way ticket back home to NK?

 

[Flash]

If you don't like it, don't do it. Like gay marriage, if you're against it, don't marry a gay person.

Fine....let's apply that to other forms of murder. If I decide to throw a cement block off a freeway overpass and it comes through your windshield, it's not my fault you came along when you did. If you don't like it, stay off the freeways.

Too bad for you that abortion isn't murder.

Oh it is. Legalized murder. Kind of like the legalized murder the Nazis did.

 

[alang1216]

Did you write this?

" Right-to-Lifers that claim there is no 'tissue', only baby."

I did. Do you really need a link to prove that some Right-to-Lifers claim that 'personhood' begins at conception?

Anything to make you happy:

“Personhood” laws seek to classify fertilized eggs, zygotes, embryos, and fetuses as “persons,” and to grant them full legal protection under the U.S. Constitution, including the right to life from the moment of conception.

I see I've forced you to insert "some."


Excellent.

What is your first language? It's obviously not English.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Liberals on abortion: "Safe, legal and rare"

That's it. It is that simple.

Still waiting for one of you leftist lackwits to explain to me why it should be "rare".

 

[Taz]

If you don't like it, don't do it. Like gay marriage, if you're against it, don't marry a gay person.

Fine....let's apply that to other forms of murder. If I decide to throw a cement block off a freeway overpass and it comes through your windshield, it's not my fault you came along when you did. If you don't like it, stay off the freeways.

Too bad for you that abortion isn't murder.

Oh it is. Legalized murder. Kind of like the legalized murder the Nazis did.

I invoke Godwin's Law. See ya.

 

[Taz]

Did you write this?

" Right-to-Lifers that claim there is no 'tissue', only baby."

I did. Do you really need a link to prove that some Right-to-Lifers claim that 'personhood' begins at conception?

Anything to make you happy:

“Personhood” laws seek to classify fertilized eggs, zygotes, embryos, and fetuses as “persons,” and to grant them full legal protection under the U.S. Constitution, including the right to life from the moment of conception.

I see I've forced you to insert "some."


Excellent.

What is your first language? It's obviously not English.

It's Korean. The Northern dialect.

 

[SAYIT]

Add to that the fact that if they get what they want and the Supreme Court over rules Roe V Wade it sends the issue back to the states. There will always be at least one state that keeps abortion legal and safe. That state is mine...

BOOM!!! And isn't that the best and most constitutional way to deal with most if not all domestic issues? Shouldn't state laws serve the needs and reflect the values of their citizens rather than one-size-fits-all WashDC edicts? What works for NY should not be imposed upon New Mexico just because they both start with "New."
People will live where the laws, society, and lifestyle best suit them without big, greasy, central gov't interference.

 

[Dana7360]

Oh, boy, another round of Number-pointed Crazy from the Mail Order Bride From Hell.

Okay, one more time. You guys get your ban on abortion, how are you going to enforce it?

Are you going to lock up women for getting abortions? Because honestly, I don't see anything less than that as being a deterrent, now that we have DIY abortion pills.

Add to that the fact that if they get what they want and the Supreme Court over rules Roe V Wade it sends the issue back to the states.

There will always be at least one state that keeps abortion legal and safe.

That state is mine.

The people of my state voted on it in the early 90s. The ballot initiative issue was whether to keep abortion safe and legal in my state no matter what any judge or congress does. The initiative passed with a good margin. I voted with the majority.

There are organizations in America that we women started and fund privately. We have organizations that do nothing but fund abortions. They also provide funds for transportation and lodging. We women have done this quietly. We stopped depending on our society to support reproductive freedom so we have taken matters in our own hands and have been doing it for decades. I personally have been donating to those organizations since the 80s.

So all a person has to do is travel to another state to get their legal abortion.

Then there's the Ireland solution. Coastal states can have medical ships that go out to international waters to perform perfectly legal abortions.

These far right wing radical extremists might be able to make abortion illegal in their states but they can't do that to all the states and women won't stop having abortions.

Abortion cruise?

Abortion was illegal in Ireland for a very long time.

During that time women died needlessly. Even women who were there on vacation from other nations.

The women in Ireland took matters in their own hands. They started a medical ship that took women out to international waters to have totally legal abortions. It went on for decades.

The far right wing radical extremists can pass all the anti women and anti reproductive freedom laws they want. It will never stop abortion.

All they're doing is causing women to die needlessly and ruining countless lives.

 

[Cecilie1200]

One: It is "wrong" to kill babies. Even Leftists mainly agree with this.

Two: There is nothing wrong with removing "tissue" from the body of the person who wants it removed.

Three: At some point in time between ejaculation and live birth, the product of that copulation ceases being "tissue" and becomes a legal person, for Constitutional purposes.

Four: The position staked out by Justice Blackmun in Roe v. Wade (1973) was that the conversion from Tissue to Baby occurred at the time when the baby became arguably viable: that is, able to survive outside the womb. This was based on his reading of the medical science at the time of the decision. There have been new developments in neonatal care, and one could argue that viability now occurs prior to six months, but that is not relevant to this discussion.

Most of the people howling that they NEVER want Roe v. Wade overturned - that it is a "Super Precedent" - completely reject Justice Blackmun's line of demarkation, and insist that the Tissue/Baby line is drawn AT BIRTH. So they really don't want Roe v. Wade to be the law of the land; they want their own twisted version of RvW to prevail.

Five: Roe v. Wade is completely made-up law, based on a completely made-up Constitutional "right": the Right of Privacy. It is nowhere in the Constitution, and it is, legally speaking, an abomination, because it defies definition. A "right" that is based on a Constitutional Amendment that protects us from eavesdropping and unreasonable searches is trotted out to overturn sodomy laws? To void thousands of years of marriage laws? And then to prevent States from prohibiting abortions which, parenthetically, are forbidden by the Oath of Hippocrates? Good God, is there any better example of a Supreme Court run amok?

In a rational world (where no Leftists reside), one could have a rational argument about where the aforesaid line of Tissue/Baby demarkation should be drawn. At one extreme, there is a tenable argument that once the DNA of the person is established (i.e., at conception), it is a baby. At the other extreme, one could argue for the moment when that baby takes its first breath outside the womb. All sorts of considerations could be brought to bear, but two things are manifest: The Line should be between those two figurative goal posts, and the line should be drawn, not by a court of life-appointed jurists, but by the Peoples' representatives in either Congress or the State Legislatures.

Six: A couple of developments have raised this issue to a higher profile than usual: The conservative shift in the USSC (possibly shifting even a little bit further if the infamous RBG does the Right Thing in a timely manner), and the passage of a couple of state laws that, in effect draw the Tissue/Baby line much earlier than States have dared to draw it since the publication of RvW.

But the Left refuses to have this rational discussion. It insists that the WOMAN (don't you dare call her a "mother") has an absolute right to "remove the tissue" up to and even after the moment of live birth, according to her absolute discretion. Further, THEY DENY THE OPPOSING SIDE EVEN THE RIGHT TO RAISE POINTS IN SUPPORT OF THEIR POSITION. If they take any position other than the Leftist position, they are horrible bigots, misogynists, haters, deniers, and whatever other absurd insults they can gin up.

And note that in this, as in every other "discussion," they present no arguments on their own behalf. It is merely, "If you disagree with us, you are a [choose your ad hominem insult]!"

Leftists are scum.

"One: It is "wrong" to kill babies. Even Leftists mainly agree with this."


I believe this summarizes the OP.

Apparently, they are edging their way out into the glaring spotlight of "Maybe it's okay to kill people if I personally want to do so".

"We’re facing a really terrifying attack on abortion – in the U.S., where I live in Northern Ireland, and elsewhere. In the past, the strategies that our side has tended to use have included a kind of ceding of ground to our enemies. We tend to say that "Abortion is indeed very bad, but," or we say, "Luckily it’s not killing; luckily it’s just a healthcare, right?" We have very little to lose at the moment when it comes to abortion, and I’m interested in winning radically. I wonder if we could think about defending abortion as a right to stop doing gestational work.

Abortion is, in my opinion, and I recognize how controversial this is, a form of killing. It is a form of killing that we need to be able to defend. I am not interested in where a human life starts to exist. I see the forms of making and unmaking each other as continuous processes. The other end of the spectrum is the process of learning how to die well and hold each other and let each other go at the end of our lives, as well as at the beginning." -- Sophie Lewis, author of "Full Surrogacy Now: Feminism Against Family"

So at least they're starting to be honest about sounding like sociopaths.

 

[sealybobo]

I mean real Liberals, those with integrity and a reputable view of the world, not the mind numbed variety that adhere to the Democrats no matter how insane their current agenda is.




1.Perhaps you’ve noticed that today the strongest Liberals/Democrats are those with the least ability to analyze what they are supporting. As a result, just as Orwell predicted in 1984, they can’t keep straight whether they are at war with Eastasia, or Eurasia. They need not keep track, they simply agree that the enemy at the moment is whoever the leadership says it is.
And today it is the unborn.

Hence, the Liberals were against gay marriage before they were for it. They opposed socialism before they were for it. And they opposed nuclear weapons for Iran before they were in favor of it.
So, no big deal to want to exterminate the defenseless.....

They are clueless to 180° turns by the party. Morons simply march lock-step via the party’s orders.





I came across an interesting real-Liberal essay opposing abortion, and it is instructive to peruse.


2.“Abortion: The Left has betrayed the sanctity of life From The Progressive magazine. Abortion: The Left has betrayed the sanctity of life
Consistency demands concern for the unborn

The abortion issue, more than most, illustrates the occasional tendency of the Left to become so enthusiastic over what is called a "reform" that it forgets to think the issue through. It is ironic that so many on the Left have done on abortion what the conservatives and Cold War liberals did on Vietnam: They marched off in the wrong direction, to fight the wrong war, against the wrong people.

3. Some of us … are now active in the right-to-life movement. We do not enjoy opposing our old friends on the abortion issue, but we feel that we have no choice. We are moved by what pro-life feminists call the "consistency thing" -- the belief that respect for human life demands opposition to abortion, capital punishment, euthanasia, and war. We don't think we have either the luxury or the right to choose some types of killing and say that they are all right, while others are not. A human life is a human life; and if equality means anything, it means that society may not value some human lives over others.




4. Until the last decade, people on the Left and Right generally agreed on one rule: We all protected the young. This was not merely agreement on an ethical question: It was also an expression of instinct, so deep and ancient that it scarcely required explanation. Protection of the young included protection of the unborn, for abortion was forbidden by state laws throughout the United States. Those laws reflected an ethical consensus, not based solely on religious tradition but also on scientific evidence that human life begins at conception. The prohibition of abortion in the ancient Hippocratic Oath is well known.

5. …it is important to ask why the Left in the United States generally accepted legalized abortion. One factor was the popular civil libertarian rationale for freedom of choice in abortion. Many feminists presented it as a right of women to control their own bodies. When the objection was raised that abortion ruins another person's body, they respond that a) it is not a body, just a "blob of protoplasm" (thereby displaying ignorance of biology); or b) it is not really a "person" until it is born.

When it was suggested that this is a wholly arbitrary decision, unsupported by any biology evidence, they said, "Well, that's your point of view. This is a matter of individual conscience, and in a pluralistic society people must be free to follow their consciences."




Thinking Liberals, largely an oxymoron today, continue embracing rectitude over party loyalty.

How about a compromise. We say 27 weeks you say 8. How about we settle on 18 weeks?