Liberals lets get something straight about debt

Discussion in 'Politics' started by JRK, May 18, 2011.

  1. JRK
    Offline

    JRK Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    7,488
    Thanks Received:
    312
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings:
    +312
    You want to add the interest to the debt the president inherited, fine
    You want to add the amount the president added to the debt, fine

    You cannot have it both ways
    This link going around saying Reagan and GWB added 9.2 trillion is a lie
    unless you add the interest add to the debt they inherited
    Reagan 2.1 trillion
    Critics of President Reagan's budget deficits should answer one simple question: Would you trade the collapse of communism, your smaller tax burden, some of your income -- and possibly your job -- in exchange for eliminating that $2.1 trillion in added debt?
    Defending the Reagan Deficits | The Heritage Foundation
    GWB

    http://diplomatdc.wordpress.com/200...e-clinton-surplus-and-tarp-by-gregory-hilton/
    http://blog.heritage.org/2010/02/05/past-deficits-vs-obamas-deficits-in-pictures/

    For eight years many liberals complained about the Bush deficit and praised the Clinton surplus. They had an excellent point, but overlooked many key factors. Bush created a Medicare drug entitle*ment which will cost an estimated $800 billion in its first decade. He increased federal education spending 58% faster than inflation. He was also the first President to spend 3% of GDP on federal anti-poverty programs. For some reason the left wing is no longer talking about the deficit.
    The above graph does include spending on Iraq and Afghanistan during the Bush years. While Bush did fund the wars through emergency supplementals (not the regular budget process), that spending did not simply vanish. It is of course included in the numbers above.
    The Bush deficit declined significantly until early September of 2008 when the global economic crisis began. Bush responded with TARP (the toxic asset recovery program). This was done because $550 billion was pulled out of our financial and investment systems in ONE hour on September 18, 2008. The situation was dire and there was no longer a firewall between the banks and the stock market. There was $40 trillion in outstanding Credit Default Swaps, and most of it turned out to be worthless. That’s more than the GDP of the entire United States for three years.
    The Bush administration worked diligently to keep the American economy going. Many conservatives and libertarians were disappointed by TARP. They believed we should leave the economy alone and it would fix itself. The conservative magazine National Review did not agree and supported TARP as a necessary evil. The House Progressive Caucus was opposed but their prediction that it would fail, has not proven true.
    TARP was necessary to save the economy from collapse. Letting the banks fail was not the right thing to do and it would have led to a Great Depression. TARP and all of the other government efforts in the fall of 2008 did unfreeze the credit markets. Every single credit indicator (LIBOR, TED spread, A2/P2 spread, intra-bank lending, etc) shows that the markets have significantly unfrozen. The major banks have now passed their stress tests, and they are able to raise capital through the public markets. The American economy survived without a depression. There was no wholesale meltdown of the U.S. banking system. The big banks did not fail.
    The taxpayers could still lose $12 to $20 billion on the money given to AIG. That is disappointing, but it is big improvement from a few months ago. AIG received $182 billion from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury.
    Many thought the taxpayers were going to get stuck for over $100 billion, but AIG has been rapidly selling assets and the loss will be far less than what was once believed. The real outrage is that AIG lost $98 billion in 2008 but that did not stop them from paying large bonuses after they received the balout money.
    President Obama went well beyond TARP with his $787 stimulus in February of 2009. The Stimulus bill includes tax cuts but they are not the type that spur the economy. The economic model of the stimulus bill assumes every $1 of government spending increases the economy by $1.60. By that logic, debt-ridden, big-government countries like Italy, France and Germany should be wealthier than America. Not one House Republican voted for the final stimulus package, which is remarkable.
    The moderates did not support it because it was too big, too porky, and hardly stimulative at all. It also wiped out many of Bill Clinton’s excellent welfare reform laws. We did see deficit reduction and economic growth in the late 1990′s.
    Bill Clinton and a Republican Congress worked together. They agreed to restore a lower tax rate on capital gains and virtually eliminate capital gains taxes on owner-occupied housing. The galloping economy then reduced the deficit by a record level.
    Another major factor was the “peace dividend” after the Cold War. Clinton however did not erase the debt. The national debt went up every single year. The Clinton surplus is also debatable. He took a vast amount of money out of Social Security in order to cover his budgets and give the appearance of reducing debt.

    President Bush expanded the federal budget by a historic $700 billion through 2008. President Obama would add another $1 trillion.
    President Bush began a string of expensive finan*cial bailouts. President Obama is accelerating that course.
    President Bush created a Medicare drug entitle*ment that will cost an estimated $800 billion in its first decade. President Obama has proposed a $634 billion down payment on a new govern*ment health care fund.
    President Bush increased federal education spending 58 percent faster than inflation. Presi*dent Obama would double it.
    President Bush became the first President to spend 3 percent of GDP on federal antipoverty programs. President Obama has already in*creased this spending by 20 percent.
    President Bush tilted the income tax burden more toward upper-income taxpayers. President Obama would continue that trend.

    President Bush presided over a $2.5 trillion increase in the public debt through 2008. Setting aside 2009 (for which Presidents Bush and Obama share responsibility for an additional $2.6 trillion in public debt), President Obama’s budget would add $4.9 trillion in public debt from the beginning of 2010 through 2016.
    UPDATE: Many Obama defenders in the comments are claiming that the numbers above do not include spending on Iraq and Afghanistan during the Bush years. They most certainly do. While Bush did fund the wars through emergency supplementals (not the regular budget process), that spending did not simply vanish. It is included in the numbers above. Also, some Obama defenders are claiming the graphic above represents biased Heritage Foundation numbers. While we stand behind the numbers we put out 100%, the numbers, and the graphic itself, above are from the Washington Post. We originally left out the link to WaPo. It has now been added.

    CLARIFICATION: Of course, this Washington Post graphic does not perfectly delineate budget surpluses and deficits by administration. President Bush took office in January 2001, and therefore played a lead role in crafting the FY 2002-2008 budgets. Presidents Bush and Obama share responsibility for the FY 2009 budget deficit that overlaps their administrations, before President Obama assumes full budgetary responsibility beginning in FY 2010. Overall, President Obama’s budget would add twice as much debt as President Bush over the same number of years.

    Now one more thing we can add before we move on
    2009 was suppose to be GWB
    he would not sign it
    But it would nor be fair to Obama if GWB did not take some of it. How much of that number
    is debatable
    That 09 number has some of the failed stimulus and Obama's part of the tarp (GM, GMAC, Chrysler) and it was a budget that the Dems 100% own by legislation and by presidential signature
    This link has real 09 numbers
    http://blog.heritage.org/2010/02/05/past-deficits-vs-obamas-deficits-in-pictures/
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
    Last edited: May 18, 2011
  2. JRK
    Offline

    JRK Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    7,488
    Thanks Received:
    312
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings:
    +312
    I guess that shut them up
    if so it served the purpose
     
  3. NYcarbineer
    Offline

    NYcarbineer Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    95,771
    Thanks Received:
    11,235
    Trophy Points:
    2,060
    Location:
    Finger Lakes, NY
    Ratings:
    +30,112
    You need to learn to be concise.
     
  4. JRK
    Offline

    JRK Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    7,488
    Thanks Received:
    312
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings:
    +312
    not sure what your trying to say
    but I will try
    The liberal spin is that GWB and RR added 8 trillion dollars to the debt
    the truth is they added a little more than 1/2 in 16 years
    2 wars
    6 major storms in Ws term
    9-11
    1 really bad recession and 1 small recession
    Enron
    dot com bubble bursting

    Thats 250-300 billion a year avg which is not good, but its a long way from the spin and one hell of a long way from 1.5 trillion a year
    The spin has interest added, which if we do that BHO has added close to twice as much as stated and Clinton never had (with the GOP congress) any surplus as advertised
     
  5. Mr. Shaman
    Offline

    Mr. Shaman Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    23,892
    Thanks Received:
    817
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings:
    +819
    Not a prob!!

    Swallow your pride...

    ....and...

    The ball's ALWAYS been in....
    Republicans' COURT!!!!

    [​IMG]

     
  6. NYcarbineer
    Offline

    NYcarbineer Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    95,771
    Thanks Received:
    11,235
    Trophy Points:
    2,060
    Location:
    Finger Lakes, NY
    Ratings:
    +30,112
    If you're going to claim extraordinary expenses were caused by extraordinary events, that's a double edged sword, since it argues against the tax cuts that occurred at the same time.
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  7. Bfgrn
    Offline

    Bfgrn Gold Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2009
    Messages:
    16,829
    Thanks Received:
    2,480
    Trophy Points:
    245
    Ratings:
    +3,060
    yes
     
  8. JRK
    Offline

    JRK Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    7,488
    Thanks Received:
    312
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings:
    +312
    I agree
    we can look at the way the conservative dealt with those issues Vs the Liberal and we have all the information we need
    The war in Iraq is over
    in 2003 it was starting with 2 million jobs lost from 01
    tax cuts
    7 million jobs created till 08 with less than 2 trillion in debt

    we have had well over that in 24 months with 6 million jobs lost
     
  9. JRK
    Offline

    JRK Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    7,488
    Thanks Received:
    312
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings:
    +312
    1) how old are you?
    2) could you afford a home with 18% interest?
    3) Do you pay any income tax?
    4) do you feel the 17 million jobs created and the economy in full boom had anything to do with the Govt running in a surplus in the late 90s?
    5) do you feel the 2 million jobs we lost from 01-03 had anything to do with the tax hike Clinton put into place? it was not until 03 GWB tax cuts took place
     
  10. Old Rocks
    Offline

    Old Rocks Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2008
    Messages:
    46,440
    Thanks Received:
    5,409
    Trophy Points:
    1,840
    Location:
    Portland, Ore.
    Ratings:
    +10,294
    Totally wrong. Iraq, a war based on lies, added 3 trillion just by itself. Because all of the bills for that idiocy have not come due yet does not mean that it should not be counted.

    The tax cut at the time we were engaged in two wars represents more trillions the GOP threw away. Tax cuts while we are engaged in military conflicts? How much more imbecilic can you get?

    Enron was also a GOP creation. The people who created it were right there with Cheney setting National Energy Policy. And, boy, did they set it.

    The cumulative affects of the screwups during the Bush years alone added more than the eight trillion you are argueing about. Letting the GOP control finances is like letting a pyromaniac guard an oil refinery.
     

Share This Page