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deaddude said:Perhaps we should have attacked the Jordanians? No idea where the VX came from. If you can prove that it is from Iraq than I will support the war, in addition to supporting the troops.
I don't mean to call you ignorant. I apologize if I went overboard. I just get frustrated that many of you do overlook the 12 years AND the fact that he was in violation of the CEASE FIRE that ended hostilities in 1991. Also, we couldn't wait longer. You forget, the summer months were coming and there are many other dangers of fighting in the summer other than getting shot or blown up. What would you and your friends have said if we lost a large amount of soldiers due to heat stroke? What would you have said if we waited until the early summer to attack and he did have and use chem and bio weapons? See, in the winter months during the rain and blowing winds, chem and bio weapons will not work very well. But in the early summer when the humidity is just right and the winds are light and the temp is just right, those weapons would have been much more effective. We could not risk that. But if we waited and then didn't go when we did, we would have had to wait until the coming fall or the next winter to launch our offensive and by then, Sadman would have been much further along in his weapons programs. I am convinced he sent the weapons to Syria. I am convinced he had WMD's. No, we didn't find them, but that does not mean he was not working on them. There have even been theories floated that are highly likely that he transferred the weapons programs to Syria where Iraqi military and scientific officals continued to participate in their development. The thing is, Sadman would have then taken them and given them to terrorists. I truly believe that. Also, one last point, I am thoroughly convinced that Sadman had Iraqi commandos play a part in the OK City bombing. I have read numerous books on the subject and it is pretty obvious that their was a John Doe #3 that the Clinton admin instructed the FBI not to follow up on. Those records are now sealed for "national security" reasons. Since McVeigh is dead and Nichols is serving a life sentence, why do those records need to be sealed? What are they hiding?deaddude said:The twelve years you refer to are what I was calling previous attempts, if you want to include them as a whole thats fine. Twelve years it is. My point remains that we could have waited for longer than we did in order to improve our resources which as you say were devastated by Clinton defence cuts. We did not need to rush into the conflict. Iraq was not any kind of immediate threat.
Also if you are going to call me ignorant (which may very well be). Don't just leave your argument at that and not respond. Please enlighten me as to the reasons that my argument does not hold water. You are taking the inspections as a whole and that is valid, I will argue from that point of view from now on.
deaddude said:I had not thought about the weather, that is a good point.
As to the WMD's, after hearing several members of the administration say "we know where these things are" I remain skeptical about "sneak out" theories. If he had the stock piles that Bush spoke of then surely somthing would be left behind. If not then where are those stockpiles? Why aren't the terrorists using them if they have them? The VX gas used in Jordan seems insignifigant when compared to what the Bush admin claimed to have knowledge of.
Hindsight's 20/20 and I'm nearly going blind, from reading your bullshit and wishing you wouldn't whine....nakedemperor said:Yep. Remember Powell's address to the UN and Bush 2003 SOU address? "Thousands" of chemical delivery missles, "hundreds of tons" of Serin, Anthrax, and VX (and other chemicals and bioweapons, see speeches for full list), and nuclear facilities have not only not been found, but no trace of their production since 1991 has been discovered either. Man, that was one incredibly rapid and thorough sneak out job! In fact, the only WMDs found (if you can call them that) were Desert Storm-era canisters of Serin (which Fox News touted heavily, leaving an astouding 65% of their viewers STILL believing WMDs were found); these Serin canisters, while they might not be safe to drink, were not the Serin that was created in '91. Serin's potency becomes almost nil after ~5 years, but this was the GOPs highly touted WMD stockpile. Heh.
deaddude said:The twelve years you refer to are what I was calling previous attempts, if you want to include them as a whole thats fine. Twelve years it is. My point remains that we could have waited for longer than we did in order to improve our resources which as you say were devastated by Clinton defense cuts. We did not need to rush into the conflict. Iraq was not any kind of immediate threat.
Also if you are going to call me ignorant (which may very well be), don't just leave your argument at that and not respond. Please enlighten me as to the reasons that my argument does not hold water. You are taking the inspections as a whole and I see that as valid, I will argue from that point of view from now on.
Gabriella84 said:First of all, did ANYONE the Dems to preface Bush's speech with words of encouragement?
I would love to see a neutral observers get the chance to go to Iraq and interview 100 RANDOM soldiers. No military selection process. No censorship. Totally pick and choose.
Then ask each one:
"Are you happy to be here in Iraq?"
"Do you approve of the way the Bush administration is handling the war?"
"If given a choice, would you choose to complete your stated mission, or would you take the chance to go home next week?"
"Is the situation any better now than when you got here?"
Then broadcast the replies.
you said random--why just ask American combatants?Gabriella84 said:If we can find any insurgents that are American soldiers, sure.
Beefheart said:For every insurgent we kill....two more pop up like mushrooms. The people in the Middle East will never stop fighting Americans.There has never been such a fertile breeding ground for terrorists since Bush invaded Iraq.
Cheney says the insurgents are in the last throes. Rumsfeld says it can take 12 years...while Bush will say anything that Karl Rove tells him to say.
These are sad, desperate times.Don't any of these ambiguities register to the right ? Don't they see that this administration is lying through their teeth and making it up as they go along ?
$8.8 billion is missing in Iraq. There is huge war profiteering going on. How come Bush won't even consider an investigation ?
For every dollar that is lost due to corruption....affects our soldiers..and put them at risk. Soldiers are dying needlessly b/c of this corruption.
While Halliburton is sitting there smiling like a cheshire cat.....$8.8 billion is missing.
How much body and truck armor do you think $8.8 billion can buy ?
Doesn't this register at all to you Bush excuse makers ?
1) I don't buy thatFor every insurgent we kill....two more pop up like mushrooms. The people in the Middle East will never stop fighting Americans.There has never been such a fertile breeding ground for terrorists since Bush invaded Iraq.
They will never answer you on this because they don't have a legitimate answer. If they do answer, they will just insist that although Bush was the last to make the claim and the only one to finally do something about it, the only reason the dems ever believed what they once said is because Bush, when he was (as they like to claim) snort'n coke before he became president lied to them about it and they believed him. Their logic makes no sense. I guess Clinton can make the claim and it is valid, Bush makes the claim and he is lying. They never can square those two points with any of us. They just keep on saying Bush lied and they hope they can wear us down to where we will start believing them.tim_duncan2000 said:For the people who say Bush lied about WMD, did the Democrats also lie when they said that? If not, why not?
freeandfun1 said:They will never answer you on this because they don't have a legitimate answer. If they do answer, they will just insist that although Bush was the last to make the claim and the only one to finally do something about it, the only reason the dems ever believed what they once said is because Bush, when he was (as they like to claim) snort'n coke before he became president lied to them about it and they believed him. Their logic makes no sense. I guess Clinton can make the claim and it is valid, Bush makes the claim and he is lying. They never can square those two points with any of us. They just keep on saying Bush lied and they hope they can wear us down to where we will start believing them.
Kathianne said:It's worse than that. Yesterday I linked to the question of where the Zaqwari operatives in Jordan got the VX they were caught with. Instead of answering, the libs said, the quantities were not enough to justify the question?! :chains:
http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/vx/basics/facts.aspFacts About VX
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What VX is
VX is a human-made chemical warfare agent classified as a nerve agent. Nerve agents are the most toxic and rapidly acting of the known chemical warfare agents. They are similar to pesticides (insect killers) called organophosphates in terms of how they work and what kinds of harmful effects they cause. However, nerve agents are much more potent than organophosphate pesticides.
VX was originally developed in the United Kingdom in the early 1950s.
VX is odorless and tasteless.
VX is an oily liquid that is amber in color and very slow to evaporate. It evaporates about as slowly as motor oil.
Where VX is found and how it is used
It is possible that VX or other nerve agents were used in chemical warfare during the Iran-Iraq War in the 1980s.
VX is not found naturally in the environment.
How people can be exposed to VX
Following release of VX into the air, people can be exposed through skin contact, eye contact, or inhalation (breathing in the VX mist).
Though VX does not mix with water as easily as other nerve agents do, it could be released into water. Following release of VX into water, people can be exposed by drinking contaminated water or getting contaminated water on their skin.
Following contamination of food with VX, people can be exposed by eating the contaminated food.
VX is primarily a liquid exposure hazard, but if it is heated to very high temperatures, it can turn into small amounts of vapor (gas).
A persons clothing can release VX for about 30 minutes after contact with VX vapor, which can lead to exposure of other people.
VX breaks down slowly in the body, meaning that repeated exposures to VX and/or other nerve agents can have a cumulative effect (build up in the body).
Because VX vapor is heavier than air, it will sink to low-lying areas and create a greater exposure hazard there.
How VX works
The extent of poisoning caused by VX depends on the amount of VX to which a person was exposed, how the person was exposed, and the length of time of the exposure.
Symptoms will appear within a few seconds after exposure to the vapor form of VX, and within a few minutes to up to 18 hours after exposure to the liquid form.
VX is the most potent of all nerve agents. Compared with the nerve agent sarin (also known as GB), VX is considered to be much more toxic by entry through the skin and somewhat more toxic by inhalation. It is possible that any visible VX liquid contact on the skin, unless washed off immediately, would be lethal.
All the nerve agents cause their toxic effects by preventing the proper operation of the chemical that acts as the bodys off switch for glands and muscles. Without an off switch, the glands and muscles are constantly being stimulated. They may tire and no longer be able to sustain breathing function.
VX is the least volatile of the nerve agents, which means that it is the slowest to evaporate from a liquid into a vapor. Therefore, VX is very persistent in the environment. Under average weather conditions, VX can last for days on objects that it has come in contact with. Under very cold conditions, VX can last for months.
Because it evaporates so slowly, VX can be a long-term threat as well as a short-term threat. Surfaces contaminated with VX should therefore be considered a long-term hazard.
Immediate signs and symptoms of VX exposure
People may not know they were exposed to VX because it has no odor.
People exposed to a low or moderate dose of VX by inhalation, ingestion (swallowing), or skin absorption may experience some or all of the following symptoms within seconds to hours of exposure:
Runny nose
Watery eyes
Small, pinpoint pupils
Eye pain
Blurred vision
Drooling and excessive sweating
Cough
Chest tightness
Rapid breathing
Diarrhea
Increased urination
Confusion
Drowsiness
Weakness
Headache
Nausea, vomiting, and/or abdominal pain
Slow or fast heart rate
Abnormally low or high blood pressure
Even a tiny drop of nerve agent on the skin can cause sweating and muscle twitching where the agent touched the skin.
Exposure to a large dose of VX by any route may result in these additional health effects:
Loss of consciousness
Convulsions
Paralysis
Respiratory failure possibly leading to death
Showing these signs and symptoms does not necessarily mean that a person has been exposed to VX.
What the long-term health effects are
Mild or moderately exposed people usually recover completely. Severely exposed people are not likely to survive. Unlike some organophosphate pesticides, nerve agents have not been associated with neurological problems lasting more than 1 to 2 weeks after the exposure.
How people can protect themselves, and what they should do if they are exposed to VX
Recovery from VX exposure is possible with treatment, but the antidotes available must be used quickly to be effective. Therefore, the best thing to do is avoid exposure:
Leave the area where the VX was released and get to fresh air. Quickly moving to an area where fresh air is available is highly effective in reducing the possibility of death from exposure to VX vapor.
If the VX release was outdoors, move away from the area where the VX was released. Go to the highest ground possible, because VX is heavier than air and will sink to low-lying areas.
If the VX release was indoors, get out of the building.
If people think they may have been exposed, they should remove their clothing, rapidly wash their entire body with soap and water, and get medical care as quickly as possible.
Removing and disposing of clothing:
Quickly take off clothing that has liquid VX on it. Any clothing that has to be pulled over the head should be cut off the body instead of pulled over the head. If possible, seal the clothing in a plastic bag. Then seal the first plastic bag in a second plastic bag. Removing and sealing the clothing in this way will help protect people from any chemicals that might be on their clothes.
If clothes were placed in plastic bags, inform either the local or state health department or emergency personnel upon their arrival. Do not handle the plastic bags.
If helping other people remove their clothing, try to avoid touching any contaminated areas, and remove the clothing as quickly as possible.
Washing the body:
As quickly as possible, wash any liquid VX from the skin with large amounts of soap and water. Washing with soap and water will help protect people from any chemicals on their bodies.
Rinse the eyes with plain water for 10 to 15 minutes if they are burning or if vision is blurred.
If VX has been ingested (swallowed), do not induce vomiting or give fluids to drink.
Seek medical attention right away. Dial 911 and explain what has happened.
How VX exposure is treated
Treatment consists of removing VX from the body as soon as possible and providing supportive medical care in a hospital setting. Antidotes are available for VX. They are most useful if given as soon as possible after exposure.
Kind of makes the whole "Operation Iraqi Freedom" thing fall flat if we are there as you say "to kick Islamic ass." Especially when you consider that the majority of the peoples we are "liberating" are Islamic.ThomasPaine said:for the war in Iraq.
A. USA needed to kick some Islamic ass.
ObviouslyThomasPaine said:Saddam was an easy target.
As have the British, are we going to attack them nextThomasPaine said:He had fought the USA before (Gulf War).
It was often stated by your side that the war had nothing to do with oil.ThomasPaine said:was a threat to the region (And its oil reserves, duh)
Perhaps the only decent argument in this section.ThomasPaine said:and had violated the UN peace accords ending said Gulf War.
B. The USA needed to teach the Islamic world that we were no "paper tiger" as Osama Bin Laden and his kind believed. AKA Kick some Islamic ass and teach them a little respect for the world's remaining superpower.
C. Change the politics and societies of the Islamic middle east. Like Woodrow Wilson and Franklin Delano Roosevelt before him, the idea has been as the main thrust of American foreign policy since WWI, that democracies have lesser tendencies to commit jihad, war to you and me, and war crimes against their neighbors than dictatorial regimes.
