Liberal to conservative

[PubliusInfinitum]

Contrary to your conclusion, I provided the rational basis for my conclusion where I pointed to the sacred promise inherent in marriage... Promises which my opponent wanted to dismiss in a relativist rationalization... Promises which are designed to avoid the cultural calamity of which their dismissal will surely result... and given that evil's purpose is human calamity, does it not serve reason that the origins of such reasoning would necessarily be evil?

Now one reason one may be persuaded by my position is THAT THEY WANT TO AVOID COMPLYING WITH EVIL and thus avoid personal catastrophe, calamity and chaos...

You say it is "sacred". Someone else says it is not. In fact, they may say that there is no god, so nothing is sacred in that sense.

Can you somehow prove it is sacred? You would be a fool to even try.

You say it is inherent. Someone else says it is not. They may say that they entered into marriage with a meeting of the minds where the conditions were understood to the participants. Monogamy may not have been one of those conditions.

You keep falling back to words like "sacred" and "evil" and then insist your argument is somehow based in rationality. Your argument is only rationale once someone accepts all of your premises, none of which are rationale or can be proved.

Silly and Boring.

So your response to my contest of relativism is to cite relativism... LOL... OK... suit yourself...

Someone could say that you don't exist and ask you to prove it... ever tried it? It gets pretty hairy, so be careful... small intellects can get awefully screwed up awefully quick. The fact is however that ya do exist and another's denial of that hardly effects it. That you deny that one's existance is a function of God's gift, likewise, in no way effects that... thus one's pledge is always sacred...

What you're argument seeks to do is to reduce the concept of a pledge to something closer to meaningless... a temporal arrangement subject to change without notice; a notion which is as popular as it is dangerous, rife with peril; and it's a notion which has ended many a marriage in disaster and wrought the culture precisely the calamity to which I spoke.

Words mean things Sport... think of them as drawings which impart what would otherwise remain ethereal concepts without those drawings; they're really important where humans need to communicate. Thus sacred and evil are concepts which impart bedrock concepts; concepts which are as immutable in their existance as you are in yours.

I may 'feel' that your money is my money and the only thing which separates me from my money is that it's in your house, bank or wallet... Thus if MY FEELINGS are as valid, viable and true as your feelings, then the only thing separating my truth from yours is my means to overpower you... and make my feelings on that issue 'real'...

Now that's in essence is the foundation of your argument... it's pure relativism... meaning that truth lies within the relative circumstances of the observer; where standards of morlaity are readily changable, easily redefined to suit the given observer.

Now do you agree that what's yours and mine are truly predicated upon your or my ability to induce sufficient power to change the respective status of said belongings? Or do you believe that you're entitled to the product of your labor and the unfettered use of that product to the extent that you do not use that which is rightfully yours to the detriment of another's right to use that which is rightfully theirs?

 

[Luissa]

Many of my friends of my age (young) are indulging in drink, dope, sex before marriage, debauchery and wildness. Don't get me wrong - up until about a year ago I was doing the same.

Then I had a change of heart and a change of mind.

I realised, over time, that liberalism leads to a free-for-all, a life that promises absolute freedom but which, in reality, leads to destruction. All the things above taste good for a time but ultimately people who indulge in them will come to grief. You can see it happening, sometimes even before your eyes.

I turned back to the faith last year (a faith I'd been brough up with, but turned away from in my madness) and it helped me re-learn my self-discipline and control. It's the only way forward, and without those things you can achieve nothing.

I realised that religious conservative values are the only ones on which an individual or a nation can build a future. The values on which the only promise of a stable future lives. Marriage, family, monogamy - how can we have a proper life it we don't abide by those standards?

And I've been a lot happier since embracing those values, even though some of my friends think it's strange at my age. I don't care what they think. This is the way for me and, I believe, for most rational thinking people.

Hope people agree.

You know it is wierd, my parents have been married thirty years are christians, have been faithful to each other, provided a great life for my siblings and I, and now have seven grandchildren with one more on the way, and pretty much live the so called american dream and consider themselves liberals. I will have to tell them that they still need to become religious conservative to really live that dream!

Fascinatin'... Now do they advocate for debauchery, such as the normalization of sexual deviancy, or the unfettered use of recreational drugs... Do they advocate for the confiscation of the product of another's labor to subsidize the projected 'need' of another? All of which are morally untenable positions which can and will only lead to the decay of the culture in which their children and grandchildren live?

Because that's what liberal's do and that hardly squares within the definition of morality.

The word 'liberal' means many things to many people and that one survives and procreates hardly constututes their having advocated for a moral culture through that survival and that's coming from one whose been married for 29 years with three children and one grand child... One whose never advocated for leftism but spends much of their time advocating for individual liberty as well as the inherent RESPONSIBILITIES on which that liberty MUST REST.

actually most of liberals I know are the best people I know. My parents friends for example and their son who is one of my best friends are liberals when it comes to politics but are very religious. Their son is my age and is still waitng to have sex until he is married. I can give a few other examples a people just like them.
See when you grow up with liberal parents it usually means you have freedom to be whatever you want to be and that if you make a mistake you know they will stand behind you no matter what, and will stand by whatever decisions you make regarding your life.
My mom who is very liberal when it comes to politics raised two sons and two stepsons and they became the best men I know faithful to their wives and devoted fathers.Who also work very hard to support their families!

As for conservatives I see more of you putting people into boxes and have no room for anything that is different from you!

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Well Chrissy, the distinction is that CONSERVATIVES RECOGNIZE THAT CULTURAL STANDARDS OF BEHAVIOR EXIST FOR A REASON; they understand that standards must establish the limits of personal behavior, otherwise the boundless behavior will inevitably lead to a rejection of all limits and the culture will collapse.

The sky is falling! This is just the slippery slope argument, which is pretty much silly all the time that you are not talking about skiing.

"Inevitably?" Why?

Standards shift all the time, yet the word standards still has meaning.

Would the world be any worse off if you weren't protecting righteousness? I doubt it.

Liberals on the other hand tend towards the belief that the standard of morality should be set as low as possible so that everyone can meet that standard and not 'feel bad about themselves' because they are unable or unwilling to discipline themselves to meet that sandard.

That is what you choose to believe, because you are unable to imagine how the world looks through any other perspective than your own.

You are worse than self-righteous. You are boring and self-righteous.

At least conspiracy theorists who believe only they see the truth see an interesting truth.

LOL... Man I never tire of the wild misuse of the slipplery slope projection...

"Hey man, that's a slippery slope, so be cautious; as to go that way will very likely result in your death or serious bodily injury."

'Hey man, shut the fuck up! Just because the slope falls 150' over 20' and is covered in ice; and 500 broken bodies are resting at the foot of that slope, that doesn't mean that the same thing will happen to me if I step off it's precipous...'

ROFL... CLASSIC!

Sadly, this discussion is one wherein the issue is our mutual culture; thus the body in question include you AND ME... and your relativist opinion to step off edges where the next step is a catastrophic 150' below, where you reject the lesson of their history and need to to realize the understanding that the 500 people below have come to understand effects me and my family; which is the bone of contention here.

I don't need to step off that edge; I can see that slippery slopes are as real as they are dangerous and while the history of one does not necessarily reflect what another will realize; where one follows that same path, it's a pretty fair bet that they will; and that I might realize a borken back, while you only realized four broken appendages, that distinction would not follow that the rejecting the knowledge born from the history of that slippery slope should be ignored.

So where you're working by yourself and where your actions and opinions do not effect others, you're entitled to do whatever the hell ya want... but where your opinions and actions effect me and mine... please take caution to exercise your right to pursue the fulfillment of your life in such a way that your doing so, does not lead to the detriment of my right to pursue mine; and to be sure, advocating for relativism most decidedly undermines the viability of the cultural in which I am exercising the pursuit of the fulfillment of my life...

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

LOL... Man I never tire of the wild misuse of the slipplery slope projection...which I am exercising the pursuit of the fulfillment of my life...

dooshbahg say what?

 

[Father Time]

And yet you've yet to prove that it will inevitably lead to anything, all you've done is give assurances that you are in fact right.

The conservatives know best for everyone folks, they have somehow proven that their system of morals is the best possible set for everyone in the country and that to let people go down a different path will lead to anarchy. They just prefer to keep the proof a secret amongst themselves.

Oh and does anyone think that last sentence basically reads "if you have a different opinion and try to spread it then you are infringing on my right to live in this 'moral' culture." If I'm mistaken I apologize and if not then sorry but nobody gets to sculpt the culture as they see fit and demand it be kept that way.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

You know it is wierd, my parents have been married thirty years are christians, have been faithful to each other, provided a great life for my siblings and I, and now have seven grandchildren with one more on the way, and pretty much live the so called american dream and consider themselves liberals. I will have to tell them that they still need to become religious conservative to really live that dream!

Fascinatin'... Now do they advocate for debauchery, such as the normalization of sexual deviancy, or the unfettered use of recreational drugs... Do they advocate for the confiscation of the product of another's labor to subsidize the projected 'need' of another? All of which are morally untenable positions which can and will only lead to the decay of the culture in which their children and grandchildren live?

Because that's what liberal's do and that hardly squares within the definition of morality.

The word 'liberal' means many things to many people and that one survives and procreates hardly constututes their having advocated for a moral culture through that survival and that's coming from one whose been married for 29 years with three children and one grand child... One whose never advocated for leftism but spends much of their time advocating for individual liberty as well as the inherent RESPONSIBILITIES on which that liberty MUST REST.

actually most of liberals I know are the best people I know. My parents friends for example and their son who is one of my best friends are liberals when it comes to politics but are very religious. Their son is my age and is still waitng to have sex until he is married. I can give a few other examples a people just like them.
See when you grow up with liberal parents it usually means you have freedom to be whatever you want to be and that if you make a mistake you know they will stand behind you no matter what, and will stand by whatever decisions you make regarding your life.
My mom who is very liberal when it comes to politics raised two sons and two stepsons and they became the best men I know faithful to their wives and devoted fathers.Who also work very hard to support their families!

As for conservatives I see more of you putting people into boxes and have no room for anything that is different from you!

Well, Ok... and given that conclusion and given all the boxes you packed in advancing that position, we're left to conclude that you must be a conservative.

Your opinions of those you've boxed up as liberals is subjective and based solely upon your observation... so we're in no position to contest that observation; all of which means there's nothing to discuss.

What I hear you saying is your mother exemplief conservative principles in her personal life, while publically advocating for liberal policy.

The fact is that most Americans are apolitical, meaning that they spend most of their time focused on their lives; raising their families and pursuing the fulfillment of their lives... they like to think of themselves as 'liberals' because liberal to them means 'live and let live' and naturally, they don't like to be screwed with, so they don't want to screw with others. But that idea is filled with misnomers... Liberals.. OKA: Leftists are the antithesis of 'live and let live'... they're tyrants and as tyrants are wont to do, they lie in their advertising...

So I don't get too caught up in the status of those you feel are 'liberal', while you define that by their conservative behavior...

I just want to point out that this is what you're doin'... and I really enjoy doin' it.

 

[Tekken]

And really who are you to judge?

I am in no position to judge. I judge only myself.

Sorry if I may have come across as intolerant.

This just works for me. It's right for me - I wasn't prescribing for anyone else.

This sure has generated some lively debate!

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

dooshbahg say what?

He 'missed spelled' douche-bag and he said "dooshbahg say what?"

 

[Tekken]

Wow - this really is a heated debate.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

dooshbahg say what?

He missed spelled douche-bag and he said "dooshbahg say what?"

um, it's not a misspelling you doosh.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Wow - this really is a heated debate.

that's because PubichairInfinitum, is all hot to expose the red menace.

 

[Tekken]

I hope people haven't misunderstood the point I was making here. Didn't mean to come across as prescriptive and arrogant.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

And yet you've yet to prove that it will inevitably lead to anything, all you've done is give assurances that you are in fact right.

Ahh... so you feel that the lowering of standards will potentially lead to a rise in the standard performance... Yep... you're a leftist; note the stark intellectual limitations which evoke a doubt in natural certainty.

The conservatives know best for everyone folks, they have somehow proven that their system of morals is the best possible set for everyone in the country and that to let people go down a different path will lead to anarchy. They just prefer to keep the proof a secret amongst themselves.

Well sure... because morality is really subjective... I mean 'just because premiscuitive sexual behavior is proven to increase the likelihood of the spreading of sexually trasmitted disease to low self-esteem, that doesn't mean that it's a moral certainty that sexual promiscuity is 'wrong'... there's just no evidence to support it!'

ROFLMNAO... Leftists...

And for the record... isn't irony a BITCH? Here we have a leftist lamenting moral certainty in those who profess 'what's best for everyone,' while she advances what seems painfully close to her being rather certain about what she deems to be ' best for everyone'...

Oh and does anyone think that last sentence basically reads "if you have a different opinion and try to spread it then you are infringing on my right to live in this 'moral' culture." If I'm mistaken I apologize and if not then sorry but nobody gets to sculpt the culture as they see fit and demand it be kept that way.

Oh Contraire... I have every right to advocate for viable moral standards in my culture... just as you have the same right. The difference is that I can support my position; I can prove the viability of the standards for which I advocate... point for point, line for line and time for time, everywhere you try... and I'm prepared to hold accountable, those who disagree and through their numbers are able to establish their unviable feelings as statutory policy; policy which is certain to bring the predictable ruin.

What you need to understand is that where one exercises their rights to the detriment of the rights of another, they forfeit their rights... and that is the basis of holding accountable, those who infringe on my rights to pursue the fulfillment of my life, by undermining the viability of my culture...

 

[Tekken]

I apologise to anyone who feels I have been arrogant or intolerant.

I have no right - and no room - to judge anyone.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Wow - this really is a heated debate.

that's because PubichairInfinitum, is all hot to expose the red menace.

No trolling "Dooshbahg" could have said it better... and for spam, that was pretty succinct.

Given enough time, she'll eventually offer an on topic point... but she usually runs off long before sufficient courage comes along.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

dooshbahg say what?

He missed spelled douche-bag and he said "dooshbahg say what?"

um, it's not a misspelling you doosh.

ROFLMNAO... Oh GOD that's precious... "IGNORANT AND PROUD OF IT!"

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

He missed spelled douche-bag and he said "dooshbahg say what?"

um, it's not a misspelling you doosh.

ROFLMNAO... Oh GOD that's precious... "IGNORANT AND PROUD OF IT!"

you still don't get IT.


why am I not surprised?

 

[Father Time]

And yet you've yet to prove that it will inevitably lead to anything, all you've done is give assurances that you are in fact right.

Ahh... so you feel that the lowering of standards will potentially lead to a rise in the standard performance... Yep... you're a leftist; note the stark intellectual limitations which evoke a doubt in natural certainty.

I never said anything of that sort, you assume that because I don't take your word at face value I must have a direct opposite opinion.

The conservatives know best for everyone folks, they have somehow proven that their system of morals is the best possible set for everyone in the country and that to let people go down a different path will lead to anarchy. They just prefer to keep the proof a secret amongst themselves.

Well sure... because morality is really subjective... I mean 'just because premiscuitive sexual behavior is proven to increase the likelihood of the spreading of sexually trasmitted disease to low self-esteem, that doesn't mean that it's a moral certainty that sexual promiscuity is 'wrong'... there's just no evidence to support it!'

Did you just say morality is subjective then try to objectively prove a piece of morality? Anyway this is the type of thing I want, real evidence not assurances, so thanks (even though you haven't linked to said studies). Although really you can prove that it's a bad idea not that it's wrong which you just admitted is subjective.

And for the record... isn't irony a BITCH? Here we have a leftist lamenting moral certainty in those who profess 'what's best for everyone,' while she advances what seems painfully close to her being rather certain about what she deems to be ' best for everyone'...

Where did I say I was certain what was best for everyone? Nowhere. In fact I'm pretty sure that there is no specific moral code that works best for every person in the country.

Oh Contraire... I have every right to advocate for viable moral standards in my culture... just as you have the same right.

I was talking bring the force of government down to enforce your morality not simply advocating it.

The difference is that I can support my position; I can prove the viability of the standards for which I advocate... point for point, line for line and time for time, everywhere you try...

Then please do that instead of verbal assurances.

What you need to understand is that where one exercises their rights to the detriment of the rights of another, they forfeit their rights... and that is the basis of holding accountable, those who infringe on my rights to pursue the fulfillment of my life, by undermining the viability of my culture...

Which culture? There are many.

And are those people who are 'undermining' it also part of the very same culture of which you speak?

 

[Luissa]

Fascinatin'... Now do they advocate for debauchery, such as the normalization of sexual deviancy, or the unfettered use of recreational drugs... Do they advocate for the confiscation of the product of another's labor to subsidize the projected 'need' of another? All of which are morally untenable positions which can and will only lead to the decay of the culture in which their children and grandchildren live?

Because that's what liberal's do and that hardly squares within the definition of morality.

The word 'liberal' means many things to many people and that one survives and procreates hardly constututes their having advocated for a moral culture through that survival and that's coming from one whose been married for 29 years with three children and one grand child... One whose never advocated for leftism but spends much of their time advocating for individual liberty as well as the inherent RESPONSIBILITIES on which that liberty MUST REST.

actually most of liberals I know are the best people I know. My parents friends for example and their son who is one of my best friends are liberals when it comes to politics but are very religious. Their son is my age and is still waitng to have sex until he is married. I can give a few other examples a people just like them.
See when you grow up with liberal parents it usually means you have freedom to be whatever you want to be and that if you make a mistake you know they will stand behind you no matter what, and will stand by whatever decisions you make regarding your life.
My mom who is very liberal when it comes to politics raised two sons and two stepsons and they became the best men I know faithful to their wives and devoted fathers.Who also work very hard to support their families!

As for conservatives I see more of you putting people into boxes and have no room for anything that is different from you!

Well, Ok... and given that conclusion and given all the boxes you packed in advancing that position, we're left to conclude that you must be a conservative.

Your opinions of those you've boxed up as liberals is subjective and based solely upon your observation... so we're in no position to contest that observation; all of which means there's nothing to discuss.

What I hear you saying is your mother exemplief conservative principles in her personal life, while publically advocating for liberal policy.

The fact is that most Americans are apolitical, meaning that they spend most of their time focused on their lives; raising their families and pursuing the fulfillment of their lives... they like to think of themselves as 'liberals' because liberal to them means 'live and let live' and naturally, they don't like to be screwed with, so they don't want to screw with others. But that idea is filled with misnomers... Liberals.. OKA: Leftists are the antithesis of 'live and let live'... they're tyrants and as tyrants are wont to do, they lie in their advertising...

So I don't get too caught up in the status of those you feel are 'liberal', while you define that by their conservative behavior...

I just want to point out that this is what you're doin'... and I really enjoy doin' it.

by your statement you assume anyone who has morals must be conservative, therefore saying conservatives are the only ones with morals and values. Conservatives are not the only ones who go to church or have strong families.
And speaking of tyrant, telling someone their lifestyle is wrong is being tyrant, telling someone what they can do with their body is being a tyrant, saying the only way to survive is to be a religious conseravative is being a tyrant.
Assuming everyone who is on welfare is lazy and taking advantage of the system is putting people into boxes along with saying all liberals just want to live off the government is also putting people into boxes.

 

[Tekken]

I didn't think this would get so furious!