Liberal Business owners - a true story of what I get to deal with right now

[BluePhantom]

So I have to share this because it really pisses me off. So I manage a business for two owners who are absolutely fabulous people...I mean wonderful people and I love them to death...but they are flaming liberals and can't see their hand two inches past their nose. So prior to the election they tasked me with setting up a plan fo expansion into a second location. Now I know the books and so the other day we meet and ask my plan and my response was: "I don't think we can expand now"

"Why not?" they asked confused.

"Well," I said. "Right now our company has 47 employees. Expanding to a second locaton will put us over the 50 employee limit on Obamacare and we will have to pay health benefits for every one of our employees or pay the fine to avoid it. After looking at the books, that will bankrupt us." I explained.

"But our business is ready to take the next step." they said to me.

"Yes it is," I responded "but we can't afford to anymore. The good old days of expanding according to sales and demand are over." I explained. "That's not the way it works anymore."

"Well why not?" they asked sincerely.

"Well because of the Affordable Health Care Act" I said. I then explained all the implications and do you know what their response was? These flaming liberals who voted for Obama and pounded the "health care is a human right" angle? Know what they said to me? They said "Well we have to find a loophole to get out of this. We can't afford that. it will end our business."

I was tempted at that point to reach across the table and strangle them both screaming "this is what you voted for mother fuckers!!!!" but I kept my cool. I said slowly "the business landscape has changed. Now here are our options.....#1 cut every employee to below 30 hours a week. If they go over 30 hours we fire them on the spot."

"Well how will they support their families on only 30 hours a week?" they asked.

"If they go over 30 hours after the expansion," I explained "then you will support their families directly from your own pocket because the business cannot sustain the expense incurred by Obamacare." I got incredulous at this point. "Jesus fucking Christ have you not been paying attention?" I was met with silence.

"Now the other option is to expand to the new location but to sub-contract labor to a different entity. Technically, you will have no new employees and be under the 50 cap. On the other hand you have to entrust your labor to a totally different business...and don't even think about creating a dummy corporation yourself to hire those workers under unless you want a nice battle with the IRS for fraud. It will have to be a completely unrelated business with totally unrelated ownership."

So after a while of them thinking they looked at me and asked.

"So what you are saying is that we can't expand our business unless we slash the hours of our employees who need every hour they can get, sub-contract out our labor an allow an independent business to control our labor, or just say fuck it and not expand at all?"

i said "Yep"

"THAT'S TOTAL BULLSHIT" they screamed

"That's what you voted for" I said calmly risking my job.

I didn't get fired. The expansion will not take place. 45 jobs set and ready just got lost thanks to Obamacare.

 

[Ravi]

I'm editing my post to include g5000's total debunking of your thread, see below. It would be nice if you came back and admitted that you are full of shit.

So I take it no one knows what the big flaming mistake in the OP is. This whole topic is premised on a giant lie.



.

What is it?

First, I will quote the relevant bits from Section 1513 of the PPACA. Then, I will explain what it means.


You need this:

SEC. 1513. SHARED RESPONSIBILITY FOR EMPLOYERS.
(a) IN GENERAL.—Chapter 43 of the Internal Revenue Code of
1986 is amended by adding at the end the following:
‘‘SEC. 4980H. SHARED RESPONSIBILITY FOR EMPLOYERS REGARDING
HEALTH COVERAGE.
‘‘(a) LARGE EMPLOYERS NOT OFFERING HEALTH COVERAGE.—
If—
‘‘(1) any applicable large employer fails to offer to its fulltime
employees (and their dependents) the opportunity to enroll
in minimum essential coverage under an eligible employer sponsored
plan (as defined in section 5000A(f)(2)) for any
month, and
‘‘(2) at least one full-time employee of the applicable large
employer has been certified to the employer under section 1411
of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act as having enrolled
for such month in a qualified health plan with respect
to which an applicable premium tax credit or cost-sharing reduction
is allowed or paid with respect to the employee,
then there is hereby imposed on the employer an assessable payment
equal to the product of the applicable payment amount and
the number of individuals employed by the employer as full-time
employees during such month.

And this:

‘‘(D) APPLICATION OF EMPLOYER SIZE TO ASSESSABLE
PENALTIES.—
‘‘(i) IN GENERAL.—The number of individuals employed
by an applicable large employer as full-time
employees during any month shall be reduced by 30
solely for purposes of calculating—
‘‘(I) the assessable payment under subsection
(a), or
‘‘(II) the overall limitation under subsection
(b)(2).
‘‘(ii) AGGREGATION.—In the case of persons treated
as 1 employer under subparagraph (C)(i), only 1 reduction
under subclause (I) or (II) shall be allowed with
respect to such persons and such reduction shall be allocated
among such persons ratably on the basis of the
number of full-time employees employed by each such
person.

What this means is that a company that does not provide health insurance is susceptible to penalties only if the employees get federal subsidies to buy their health insurance. But in addition to that, to avoid the very kind of disincentive Blue Phantom made up in the OP, whereby an employer with 49 employees decides not to hire more people because it would push him over the 50 employee floor, the second part that I quoted means that for purposes of the penalties, the first 30 employees are not counted toward the penalties.

.

My original post:

The could hire 3 more full timers and a gazillion part timers and expand their business, if this story is even true, and not have to provide their employees health care coverage.

I'm very surprised that an employer of 47 full time employees isn't already providing health care coverage.

Someone else will fill the void.

 

[Ravi]

and btw, you deserve to be fired for 1) trash talking people that hired you in good faith and 2) giving bad advice to your clients to further your political agenda.

If this story is even true.

You should let them read your posts here, especially your polling predictions, and let them evaluate your mental capabilities.

 

[Sunni Man]

The business owners are obviously part of the evil 1%

 

[RosieS]

and btw, you deserve to be fired for 1) trash talking people that hired you in good faith and 2) giving bad advice to your clients to further your political agenda.

If this story is even true.

You should let them read your posts here, especially your polling predictions, and let them evaluate your mental capabilities.

Truth is an unnecessary part of RW 'morality'. RW morality merely exists as a cudgel to beat the LW over the head and has no obvious connection to reality. Certainly not to anything the RW holds themselves to. "Do as I say...." being the operative concept. Whatever would truth have to do with that?

Regards from Rosie

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Progressive ideas are great, as long as someone else is paying for them

 

[Mac1958]

Our CPA/accounting people are being flooded with calls right now, business owners who are trying to deal with this. The answer is usually the same: "There's no magic bullet here; you have to deal with it, we'll try to help you mitigate the costs and damage." Right now the most common approach is to scale back hours, hiring or both.

For business owners, this isn't about greed. It's about survival.

Here it comes, gang, enjoy.

.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Holy shit some people can sure lie with ease.

 

[rightwinger]

I love these fabricated first person stories

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

So I have to share this because it really pisses me off. So I manage a business for two owners who are absolutely fabulous people...I mean wonderful people and I love them to death...but they are flaming liberals and can't see their hand two inches past their nose. So prior to the election they tasked me with setting up a plan fo expansion into a second location. Now I know the books and so the other day we meet and ask my plan and my response was: "I don't think we can expand now"

"Why not?" they asked confused.

"Well," I said. "Right now our company has 47 employees. Expanding to a second locaton will put us over the 50 employee limit on Obamacare and we will have to pay health benefits for every one of our employees or pay the fine to avoid it. After looking at the books, that will bankrupt us." I explained.

"But our business is ready to take the next step." they said to me.

"Yes it is," I responded "but we can't afford to anymore. The good old days of expanding according to sales and demand are over." I explained. "That's not the way it works anymore."

"Well why not?" they asked sincerely.

"Well because of the Affordable Health Care Act" I said. I then explained all the implications and do you know what their response was? These flaming liberals who voted for Obama and pounded the "health care is a human right" angle? Know what they said to me? They said "Well we have to find a loophole to get out of this. We can't afford that. it will end our business."

I was tempted at that point to reach across the table and strangle them both screaming "this is what you voted for mother fuckers!!!!" but I kept my cool. I said slowly "the business landscape has changed. Now here are our options.....#1 cut every employee to below 30 hours a week. If they go over 30 hours we fire them on the spot."

"Well how will they support their families on only 30 hours a week?" they asked.

"If they go over 30 hours after the expansion," I explained "then you will support their families directly from your own pocket because the business cannot sustain the expense incurred by Obamacare." I got incredulous at this point. "Jesus fucking Christ have you not been paying attention?" I was met with silence.

"Now the other option is to expand to the new location but to sub-contract labor to a different entity. Technically, you will have no new employees and be under the 50 cap. On the other hand you have to entrust your labor to a totally different business...and don't even think about creating a dummy corporation yourself to hire those workers under unless you want a nice battle with the IRS for fraud. It will have to be a completely unrelated business with totally unrelated ownership."

So after a while of them thinking they looked at me and asked.

"So what you are saying is that we can't expand our business unless we slash the hours of our employees who need every hour they can get, sub-contract out our labor an allow an independent business to control our labor, or just say fuck it and not expand at all?"

i said "Yep"

"THAT'S TOTAL BULLSHIT" they screamed

"That's what you voted for" I said calmly risking my job.

I didn't get fired. The expansion will not take place. 45 jobs set and ready just got lost thanks to Obamacare.

Anonymously bad mouthing your employers that trust you on a public forum - very classy.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Progressive ideas are great, as long as someone else is paying for them

That's what Mitt Romney thought when he said he supports the pre-existing conditions part of ObamaCare - but not that mandate that would pay for it.

 

[Dick Tuck]

Some people tend to put the best interest of their country ahead of their personal wealth. Warren Buffet supported Obama. He'll find ways to build his businesses, and probably figure out ways to leverage the improved health of his workers.

If someone I paid to manage my business came to me and said we can't grow because we're moving toward universal health care, I'd think about hiring someone who told me how I can grow. I'd prefer hiring a systems thinker, who thought of the here and now, and gave me an optimal strategy. I wouldn't want some pea brain partisan hack telling me how I voted limited my growth potential. Too bad managers aren't required to take course work in operations research.

I've worked for, and managed groups for, companies who did quite a bit of work for federal, state, and city governments. When we grew to the point where small business set asides were at risk, we didn't whine about not growing. The task was to figure out how to grow. Maybe you're not cut out to be a manager.

 

[rightwinger]

Since we are making up stories....

I work for a conservative business owner

I told him that our employees do not have health insurance and will go bankrupt if they have a major illness. He said screw them, they are not my problem let the taxpayer pick up their healthcare costs

I explained that I agreed with him and that businesses should not be the ones providing healthcare and that it should be a government function. He jumped up and screamed THATS SOCIALISM

I explained that his attitude is just the problem that Obamacare faced, that no matter what solution was proposed, conservatives tried to block it

He replied....LET THEM DIE

 

[Mac1958]

.

I could definitely be a liar, no doubt about it.

One thing I find interesting is the way both ends of the political spectrum throw that one up immediately when they don't like something.

.

 

[Seawytch]

Our CPA/accounting people are being flooded with calls right now, business owners who are trying to deal with this. The answer is usually the same: "There's no magic bullet here; you have to deal with it, we'll try to help you mitigate the costs and damage." Right now the most common approach is to scale back hours, hiring or both.

For business owners, this isn't about greed. It's about survival.

Here it comes, gang, enjoy.

.

Sorry, but for places like Papa Johns and Walmart, it IS about greed.

And their positions aren't doing them any favors...

Papa John's Obamacare Stance Costs Company Its Reputation: Study

 

[Jarhead]

The could hire 3 more full timers and a gazillion part timers and expand their business, if this story is even true, and not have to provide their employees health care coverage.

I'm very surprised that an employer of 47 full time employees isn't already providing health care coverage.

Someone else will fill the void.

you cant successfully expand a business with all part timers. It is impossible. Dedication of employees does not become an asset unless they are full time.

You need to understand how to run and expand a business to successfully engage in a debate on this topic.

Employee dedication and loyalty is very important to a small business....if one employee is not dedicated, the quality of the work/product/service is only as good as that one "non dedicated" employee.

 

[rightwinger]

The could hire 3 more full timers and a gazillion part timers and expand their business, if this story is even true, and not have to provide their employees health care coverage.

I'm very surprised that an employer of 47 full time employees isn't already providing health care coverage.

Someone else will fill the void.

you cant successfully expand a business with all part timers. It is impossible. Dedication of employees does not become an asset unless they are full time.

You need to understand how to run and expand a business to successfully engage in a debate on this topic.

Employee dedication and loyalty is very important to a small business....if one employee is not dedicated, the quality of the work/product/service is only as good as that one "non dedicated" employee.

Employees who need a job to keep health insurance are dedicated

 

[Jarhead]

Since we are making up stories....

I work for a conservative business owner

I told him that our employees do not have health insurance and will go bankrupt if they have a major illness. He said screw them, they are not my problem let the taxpayer pick up their healthcare costs

I explained that I agreed with him and that businesses should not be the ones providing healthcare and that it should be a government function. He jumped up and screamed THATS SOCIALISM

I explained that his attitude is just the problem that Obamacare faced, that no matter what solution was proposed, conservatives tried to block it

He replied....LET THEM DIE

The OP's story has credibility. Even if the story is a tall tale, it reflects exactly what can happen.

Yours is nothing more than a typical liberal talking point where you claim that conservatives dont give a fuck about their employees....something that is never proven.....

 

[Jarhead]

The could hire 3 more full timers and a gazillion part timers and expand their business, if this story is even true, and not have to provide their employees health care coverage.

I'm very surprised that an employer of 47 full time employees isn't already providing health care coverage.

Someone else will fill the void.

you cant successfully expand a business with all part timers. It is impossible. Dedication of employees does not become an asset unless they are full time.

You need to understand how to run and expand a business to successfully engage in a debate on this topic.

Employee dedication and loyalty is very important to a small business....if one employee is not dedicated, the quality of the work/product/service is only as good as that one "non dedicated" employee.

Employees who need a job to keep health insurance are dedicated

An employee dedicated to his/her paycheck and/or health benefits is by no means the same as an employee dedicated to the success of the business.

Thank you for making such a valid point...that is EXACTLY where there is a disconnect.

 

[Mac1958]

Sorry, but for places like Papa Johns and Walmart, it IS about greed.

And what about the hundreds of thousands of small and mid-size businesses who are already struggling in a tough economy, doing everything they can just to keep their business afloat?

What would you tell them?

.