Liberal arguments for supporting gun ownership rights

[Missourian]

Guns don't kill people, Cities kill people.​

Why do the rural communities with twice as many legal gun owners and four times the owned firearms have 25 times less gun crime than urban communities?


Look here for firearm ownership study


Of the 22 Missouri counties with populations between 25K and 50K, having a combined population of 806,764 persons, there were 163 total firearm assaults and 2604 total assaults utilizing weapons of any kind.


MSHP stats for 22 rural Missouri counties (PDF)


During the same period, in only the city of St. Louis and the city of Kansas City contained within the state of Missouri (half is in Kansas of course), with a combined population of 793,587 persons, there were a total of 4,143 firearm assaults and 8986 total assaults utilizing weapons of any kind.



MSHP stats for St. Louis (PDF)



MSHP stats for KC, MO (PDF)





The 2006 stats on Missouri crime came from this website : Missouri State Highway Patrol Statisical Analysis Center, they are the most recent available.

The 2004 rural/urban chart came from this website : Department of Health Policy and Management, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, Massachusetts, USA 2004 study.

 

[Chris]

Guns don't kill people, Cities kill people.​

Why do the rural communities with twice as many legal gun owners and four times the owned firearms have 25 times less gun crime than urban communities?


Look here for firearm ownership study


Of the 22 Missouri counties with populations between 25K and 50K, having a combined population of 806,764 persons, there were 163 total firearm assaults and 2604 total assaults utilizing weapons of any kind.


MSHP stats for 22 rural Missouri counties (PDF)


During the same period, in only the city of St. Louis and the city of Kansas City contained within the state of Missouri (half is in Kansas of course), with a combined population of 793,587 persons, there were a total of 4,143 firearm assaults and 8986 total assaults utilizing weapons of any kind.



MSHP stats for St. Louis (PDF)



MSHP stats for KC, MO (PDF)





The 2006 stats on Missouri crime came from this website : Missouri State Highway Patrol Statisical Analysis Center, they are the most recent available.

The 2004 rural/urban chart came from this website : Department of Health Policy and Management, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, Massachusetts, USA 2004 study.

Thanks for supporting my position.

I have said repeatedly that urban poverty is one of the main drivers of crime.

It is hard to have a gang fight in Wyoming. You have to drive 20 miles to your nearest neighbor.

This makes the high violent crime rates in South Carolina, Alaska, Alabama, Tennessee, Louisiana, Nevada, and New Mexico, all the more remarkable.

 

[Tech_Esq]

Since I'm sitting in DC right now and you aren't, do you think that one cause of the drop in murders might be the systematic destruction of the "hood" in DC?

Specifically, DC has literally plowed under the area south and east of Capital Hill and put a Baseball stadium, office buildings and high rent condos there instead.

Also, in North East, a new government corridor is being erected and all the previous housing projects etc. were knocked down. The new government office buildings are being interspersed with Loft Apartment buildings. Again high dollar.

The "bad part of town" is being systematically squeezed into a more and more remote area mostly across the Anacostia river from the rest of DC.

Where have all those people gone? Mostly to Prince Georges County. Why don't you do some research on how fast the murder rate has grown in PG County in the last 15 years?

Now, just accept that your statistics are a meaningless post hoc ergo proctor hoc fallacy!

The state statistics show that local background checks decrease murders, suicides, and violent crime. You can state your opinion all you want, but it doesn't change reality.

You can ignore the facts all you want to, but it doesn't change reality. Post hoc ergo protor hoc anyway you cut it.

 

[Chris]

Since I'm sitting in DC right now and you aren't, do you think that one cause of the drop in murders might be the systematic destruction of the "hood" in DC?

Specifically, DC has literally plowed under the area south and east of Capital Hill and put a Baseball stadium, office buildings and high rent condos there instead.

Also, in North East, a new government corridor is being erected and all the previous housing projects etc. were knocked down. The new government office buildings are being interspersed with Loft Apartment buildings. Again high dollar.

The "bad part of town" is being systematically squeezed into a more and more remote area mostly across the Anacostia river from the rest of DC.

Where have all those people gone? Mostly to Prince Georges County. Why don't you do some research on how fast the murder rate has grown in PG County in the last 15 years?

Now, just accept that your statistics are a meaningless post hoc ergo proctor hoc fallacy!

The state statistics show that local background checks decrease murders, suicides, and violent crime. You can state your opinion all you want, but it doesn't change reality.

You can ignore the facts all you want to, but it doesn't change reality. Post hoc ergo protor hoc anyway you cut it.

Here are the facts.....

State Rankings--Statistical Abstract of the United States--Violent Crime Per 100,000 Population - 2004

The pro gun states of Alaska, South Carolina, Nevada, New Mexico, Alabama, and Tennessee, have the most violent crime.

The states that have tighter restrictions on guns like New York, Hawaii, Rhode Island, and Conn. have much less violent crime.

 

[Tech_Esq]

The state statistics show that local background checks decrease murders, suicides, and violent crime. You can state your opinion all you want, but it doesn't change reality.

You can ignore the facts all you want to, but it doesn't change reality. Post hoc ergo protor hoc anyway you cut it.

Here are the facts.....

State Rankings--Statistical Abstract of the United States--Violent Crime Per 100,000 Population - 2004

The pro gun states of Alaska, South Carolina, Nevada, New Mexico, Alabama, and Tennessee, have the most violent crime.

The states that have tighter restrictions on guns like New York, Hawaii, Rhode Island, and Conn. have much less violent crime.

Quit trying to run by broadening the argument. You cited DC in particular.

The reality is that the criminals have been forced from DC into Maryland and that is the primary reason gun deaths are down in DC. DC did not have loose gun control prior to 1993. Why not look at the stats in DC from 1985 to 1997 when it was usually the murder capital of the country. The reason is that DC did not adopt its policies of closing down the 'hood and forcing it to Maryland until Williams and the Control Board took over DC and then Williams became Mayor and continued the policy.

Whatever your point is about the broader issue, don't use DC to support your position because you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Chris]

You can ignore the facts all you want to, but it doesn't change reality. Post hoc ergo protor hoc anyway you cut it.

Here are the facts.....

State Rankings--Statistical Abstract of the United States--Violent Crime Per 100,000 Population - 2004

The pro gun states of Alaska, South Carolina, Nevada, New Mexico, Alabama, and Tennessee, have the most violent crime.

The states that have tighter restrictions on guns like New York, Hawaii, Rhode Island, and Conn. have much less violent crime.

Quit trying to run by broadening the argument. You cited DC in particular.

The reality is that the criminals have been forced from DC into Maryland and that is the primary reason gun deaths are down in DC. DC did not have loose gun control prior to 1993. Why not look at the stats in DC from 1985 to 1997 when it was usually the murder capital of the country. The reason is that DC did not adopt its policies of closing down the 'hood and forcing it to Maryland until Williams and the Control Board took over DC and then Williams became Mayor and continued the policy.

Whatever your point is about the broader issue, don't use DC to support your position because you don't know what you are talking about.

Once again, thanks for proving my point.

Urban poverty is the main driver of crime.

Loose gun laws contribute to the lethality of the violent crime. D.C. is a good example because Virginia had some of the loosest gun laws in the country until recently, and D.C. might as well be a city in Virginia.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Registered firearms for law abiding citizens, with waiting periods for mental health and criminal background checks.

 

[Tech_Esq]

Here are the facts.....

State Rankings--Statistical Abstract of the United States--Violent Crime Per 100,000 Population - 2004

The pro gun states of Alaska, South Carolina, Nevada, New Mexico, Alabama, and Tennessee, have the most violent crime.

The states that have tighter restrictions on guns like New York, Hawaii, Rhode Island, and Conn. have much less violent crime.

Quit trying to run by broadening the argument. You cited DC in particular.

The reality is that the criminals have been forced from DC into Maryland and that is the primary reason gun deaths are down in DC. DC did not have loose gun control prior to 1993. Why not look at the stats in DC from 1985 to 1997 when it was usually the murder capital of the country. The reason is that DC did not adopt its policies of closing down the 'hood and forcing it to Maryland until Williams and the Control Board took over DC and then Williams became Mayor and continued the policy.

Whatever your point is about the broader issue, don't use DC to support your position because you don't know what you are talking about.

Once again, thanks for proving my point.

Urban poverty is the main driver of crime.

Loose gun laws contribute to the lethality of the violent crime. D.C. is a good example because Virginia had some of the loosest gun laws in the country until recently, and D.C. might as well be a city in Virginia.

Of course Urban poverty is a driver of crime. I think that's been Missourian's point for quite some time on this thread. He'll be glad you admitted it.

Virginia has not had loose gun laws in the last 15 years, which is the period of interest you claim. Virginia has had "instant background checks" during that whole time (at a minimum since 1996, when I got my last 9mm). There is a gun show loophole, which we agree on the resolution for. Additionally, Virginia is leading the nation on dealing with the mental health aspect of prevention in response to the Virginia Tech killings.

So, nice try. But, you are guilty of just blowing the typical liberal anti-gun slime about Virginia's gun laws and it does not stand up to scrutiny.

 

[Tech_Esq]

Registered firearms for law abiding citizens, with waiting periods for mental health and criminal background checks.

No registration. I don't need the government to know where to find the guns. Let them go door to door when they want to find guns. With any luck, it will prove a very unhealthful occupation.

Mental health checks and background checks should be instant. This is the 21st century, let's act like it. There is no reason to wait when databases can be accessed instantly.

 

[Chris]

Quit trying to run by broadening the argument. You cited DC in particular.

The reality is that the criminals have been forced from DC into Maryland and that is the primary reason gun deaths are down in DC. DC did not have loose gun control prior to 1993. Why not look at the stats in DC from 1985 to 1997 when it was usually the murder capital of the country. The reason is that DC did not adopt its policies of closing down the 'hood and forcing it to Maryland until Williams and the Control Board took over DC and then Williams became Mayor and continued the policy.

Whatever your point is about the broader issue, don't use DC to support your position because you don't know what you are talking about.

Once again, thanks for proving my point.

Urban poverty is the main driver of crime.

Loose gun laws contribute to the lethality of the violent crime. D.C. is a good example because Virginia had some of the loosest gun laws in the country until recently, and D.C. might as well be a city in Virginia.

Of course Urban poverty is a driver of crime. I think that's been Missourian's point for quite some time on this thread. He'll be glad you admitted it.

Virginia has not had loose gun laws in the last 15 years, which is the period of interest you claim. Virginia has had "instant background checks" during that whole time (at a minimum since 1996, when I got my last 9mm). There is a gun show loophole, which we agree on the resolution for. Additionally, Virginia is leading the nation on dealing with the mental health aspect of prevention in response to the Virginia Tech killings.

So, nice try. But, you are guilty of just blowing the typical liberal anti-gun slime about Virginia's gun laws and it does not stand up to scrutiny.

Once again, thanks for proving my point.

D.C.'s murder rate started going down in the mid 90's, just about the time that Virginia tightened up their gun laws.

 

[Chris]

Registered firearms for law abiding citizens, with waiting periods for mental health and criminal background checks.

No registration. I don't need the government to know where to find the guns. Let them go door to door when they want to find guns. With any luck, it will prove a very unhealthful occupation.

Mental health checks and background checks should be instant. This is the 21st century, let's act like it. There is no reasson to wait when databases can be accessed instantly.

There are 200 million guns in private hands in this country. Nobody wants your precious guns.

Background checks and waiting periods are all that is needed to reduce the violence.

 

[Missourian]

Thanks for supporting my position.

I have said repeatedly that urban poverty is one of the main drivers of crime.

I'm glad we finally agree that more guns does not mean more crime.