Lib/Dems should ask themselves this question:

[rightwinger]

Chris respectfully posts facts about the Republican Party. Board right-wingers don't like those facts so they taunt, call him names and neg the crap out of him

Everything he posts is true

especially about Clinton leaving Bush with a budget surplus

I agree. Republicans never like talk about the details/facts. You only get talking points.

I have tried my best but they will never stay on subject or when you make a point, they disregard that point.

I hate it when they say Clinton signed NAFTA. So in other words, totally ignore the fact that Bush 1 created NAFTA and just didn't have time to sign it because he was a one term president. Forget the fact that its the GOP that loves free unregulated trade, which is what sent all the jobs overseas. Facts are messy.

Just like with healthcare reform. Forget if Obamacare is good or not, why did the GOP fight us every step of the way on any Healthcare reform at all? Did they not realize that Healthcare companies were gouging us and denying people coverage because they wanted to be more profitable?

Or that Wallstreet Oil Speculators are the reason for high gas prices, not Drill Baby Drill. The facts would be bad for Republicans because they work for Wallstreet.

If the GOP knew what facts were, they wouldn't be denying global warming.

The GOP liked Romney because of his "business experience". They never bothered to look at what he did as a businessman. Ruin companies and profit from it. Screw middle class workers. Renig on pensions and send jobs overseas for cheaper labor. If the GOP talk about the nitty gritty details, they lose.

I love Chris.

I have repeatedly asked for anywhere where Chris is being disrespectful as the wing nuts claim. I can show thread after thread where the right wing dog pile attacks him, calls names and pats each other on the back.....I never see Chris reciprocating

Chris, like anyone is entitled to his opinion. He usually backs his opinions with facts

Like that Clinton left Bush a budget surplus. Republicans hate to admit it, but it is still a fact and Chris is correct

 

[Immanuel]

I am sure Chris enjoys your simpleton approach.

Chris does not post anything that is useful and what he posts is usually in support of his claim that Obama has done such a good job. But he unceasingly fails to connect it together. It's kinda like Obama gets credit when it is a nice day outside....when asked to explain the connection he simply inks off with his three little useless charts and stays away for a while.

He cannot make a useful argument.....kinda like you.

When Chris says "Obama has done a good job (though at the time his approval rating was in the tank)" he is making a claim. An unsupportable claim as it is nothing more than a value judgement. He is constantly being shown on an absolute and relative basis what a lousy president Obama....

But the ink keeps on coming.

And I very rarely read anything posted by Chris, but that which I have read is never respectful... which is why I almost never read him or rdean.

Immie

Just curious

Could I see a post where he is not being respectful? I understand you disagree with what he posts but where is he ever calling you names?

Wasn't difficult at all and I don't even read his posts anymore. This one is extremely rude because what he is saying is that everyone who is conservative are weak minded individuals etc. etc. etc.

The single accomplishment of the conservative movement has been to convince millions of weak minded individuals that selfishness, greed, and hate of the poor are good Christian values.

Now, how often do I call people on the left... (except for TDM) stupid? And believe me, there are as many stupid left wingers on this site as there are stupid right wingers.

I find that offensive. I do my best to keep discussions civil. I am not always successful, but I try and quite frankly, I would defend myself and say that I rarely am the first to become uncivil.

And I very rarely read anything posted by Chris, but that which I have read is never respectful... which is why I almost never read him or rdean.

Immie

Just curious

Could I see a post where he is not being respectful? I understand you disagree with what he posts but where is he ever calling you names?

I can't speak for Chris, but I think any middle class person voting Republican is stupid. Voting for a party that is attacking the middle class the way the GOP has.

I don't know if Chris outright calls them stupid, but I'm sure his responses must imply it because there is no other explanation. And if they can't get what he's saying, maybe they are stupid.

Or maybe you could call it brainwashed, maybe their parents were conservative or maybe they are born with a conservative gene, conned by the corporate media, or they are conned with wedge issues like god gays and guns, or racism. Either way they are being suckered to vote against their own financial interests.

There has to be something wrong with a person to not realize the GOP have waged class warfare on the middle class.

There is no other explanation for why a middle class person would vote for the GOP other than they aren't that underinformed, misinformed, brainwashed, don't get it or stupid.

To defend the GOP after the last 12 years??? Only a very rich or very stupid person can do this.

He does call them stupid as proven in my quote above.

I can agree with you that there is no reason for a middle class person to vote GOP, but then I would take that one step further and say there is no reason for a middle class person to vote for a "Democratic" candidate either.

Immie

 

[rightwinger]

And I very rarely read anything posted by Chris, but that which I have read is never respectful... which is why I almost never read him or rdean.

Immie

Just curious

Could I see a post where he is not being respectful? I understand you disagree with what he posts but where is he ever calling you names?

Wasn't difficult at all and I don't even read his posts anymore. This one is extremely rude because what he is saying is that everyone who is conservative are weak minded individuals etc. etc. etc.



Now, how often do I call people on the left... (except for TDM) stupid? And believe me, there are as many stupid left wingers on this site as there are stupid right wingers.

I find that offensive. I do my best to keep discussions civil. I am not always successful, but I try and quite frankly, I would defend myself and say that I rarely am the first to become uncivil.

Just curious

Could I see a post where he is not being respectful? I understand you disagree with what he posts but where is he ever calling you names?

I can't speak for Chris, but I think any middle class person voting Republican is stupid. Voting for a party that is attacking the middle class the way the GOP has.

I don't know if Chris outright calls them stupid, but I'm sure his responses must imply it because there is no other explanation. And if they can't get what he's saying, maybe they are stupid.

Or maybe you could call it brainwashed, maybe their parents were conservative or maybe they are born with a conservative gene, conned by the corporate media, or they are conned with wedge issues like god gays and guns, or racism. Either way they are being suckered to vote against their own financial interests.

There has to be something wrong with a person to not realize the GOP have waged class warfare on the middle class.

There is no other explanation for why a middle class person would vote for the GOP other than they aren't that underinformed, misinformed, brainwashed, don't get it or stupid.

To defend the GOP after the last 12 years??? Only a very rich or very stupid person can do this.

He does call them stupid as proven in my quote above.

I can agree with you that there is no reason for a middle class person to vote GOP, but then I would take that one step further and say there is no reason for a middle class person to vote for a "Democratic" candidate either.

Immie

Thanks for your post. At least you are fair

Now, what I said about Chris is he does not attack you personally even when he is personally viciously attacked

Now he didn't say "Immie is stupid" his point is that people who can be convinced to vote against their self interests are weak minded.

Now that is an opinion of a class of voters and he is entitled to his opinion. I don't see that as a personal attack

 

[Immanuel]

Just curious

Could I see a post where he is not being respectful? I understand you disagree with what he posts but where is he ever calling you names?

Wasn't difficult at all and I don't even read his posts anymore. This one is extremely rude because what he is saying is that everyone who is conservative are weak minded individuals etc. etc. etc.



Now, how often do I call people on the left... (except for TDM) stupid? And believe me, there are as many stupid left wingers on this site as there are stupid right wingers.

I find that offensive. I do my best to keep discussions civil. I am not always successful, but I try and quite frankly, I would defend myself and say that I rarely am the first to become uncivil.

I can't speak for Chris, but I think any middle class person voting Republican is stupid. Voting for a party that is attacking the middle class the way the GOP has.

I don't know if Chris outright calls them stupid, but I'm sure his responses must imply it because there is no other explanation. And if they can't get what he's saying, maybe they are stupid.

Or maybe you could call it brainwashed, maybe their parents were conservative or maybe they are born with a conservative gene, conned by the corporate media, or they are conned with wedge issues like god gays and guns, or racism. Either way they are being suckered to vote against their own financial interests.

There has to be something wrong with a person to not realize the GOP have waged class warfare on the middle class.

There is no other explanation for why a middle class person would vote for the GOP other than they aren't that underinformed, misinformed, brainwashed, don't get it or stupid.

To defend the GOP after the last 12 years??? Only a very rich or very stupid person can do this.

He does call them stupid as proven in my quote above.

I can agree with you that there is no reason for a middle class person to vote GOP, but then I would take that one step further and say there is no reason for a middle class person to vote for a "Democratic" candidate either.

Immie

Thanks for your post. At least you are fair

Now, what I said about Chris is he does not attack you personally even when he is personally viciously attacked

Now he didn't say "Immie is stupid" his point is that people who can be convinced to vote against their self interests are weak minded.

Now that is an opinion of a class of voters and he is entitled to his opinion. I don't see that as a personal attack

1) He and I don't converse. Edit: I don't believe I have ever attacked him personally nor can I remember him attacking me personally.
2) Being disrespectful need not be on a personal level.

3) Whether or not he is correct, he is disrespectful when he makes such posts as the one I quoted.

4) I try hard to avoid the people that I think are deliberately rude most of the time regardless of the side of the fence they sit on. I don't come here to be rude to others nor do I come here to have others be rude to me.

5) And believe me, because I tend to sit somewhat in the middle (sometimes I am on the side of the right and sometimes on the side of the left) I run across rudeness from both sides. I also have "friends" on both sides as well.

Edit: 6) I don't believe I said he was not entitled to his opinion.

Immie

 

[Full-Auto]

Chris respectfully posts facts about the Republican Party. Board right-wingers don't like those facts so they taunt, call him names and neg the crap out of him

Everything he posts is true

especially about Clinton leaving Bush with a budget surplus

LOL Rosy projections

Making you an outright Liar.


But to prove your point post the debt figures by year.

 

[sealybobo]

Chris respectfully posts facts about the Republican Party. Board right-wingers don't like those facts so they taunt, call him names and neg the crap out of him

Everything he posts is true

especially about Clinton leaving Bush with a budget surplus

I agree. Republicans never like talk about the details/facts. You only get talking points.

I have tried my best but they will never stay on subject or when you make a point, they disregard that point.

I hate it when they say Clinton signed NAFTA. So in other words, totally ignore the fact that Bush 1 created NAFTA and just didn't have time to sign it because he was a one term president. Forget the fact that its the GOP that loves free unregulated trade, which is what sent all the jobs overseas. Facts are messy.

Just like with healthcare reform. Forget if Obamacare is good or not, why did the GOP fight us every step of the way on any Healthcare reform at all? Did they not realize that Healthcare companies were gouging us and denying people coverage because they wanted to be more profitable?

Or that Wallstreet Oil Speculators are the reason for high gas prices, not Drill Baby Drill. The facts would be bad for Republicans because they work for Wallstreet.

If the GOP knew what facts were, they wouldn't be denying global warming.

The GOP liked Romney because of his "business experience". They never bothered to look at what he did as a businessman. Ruin companies and profit from it. Screw middle class workers. Renig on pensions and send jobs overseas for cheaper labor. If the GOP talk about the nitty gritty details, they lose.

I love Chris.

I have repeatedly asked for anywhere where Chris is being disrespectful as the wing nuts claim. I can show thread after thread where the right wing dog pile attacks him, calls names and pats each other on the back.....I never see Chris reciprocating

Chris, like anyone is entitled to his opinion. He usually backs his opinions with facts

Like that Clinton left Bush a budget surplus. Republicans hate to admit it, but it is still a fact and Chris is correct

They say it wasn't really a surplus but the fact is, under the same standards/formula that Bush produced a deficit, Clinton's, under the same guidelines, was officially a surplus. It may have been a projected deficit but none the less.

Or remember they defended Bush for sending each of us $500 bucks? Remember that? None of them cried that it was adding to the debt. They said if we didn't like it to send it back.

The fact is, if he didn't send us that money he would have officially been in a recession. Without that spending, he had 3 straight quarters of failure and he would have officially been in a recession. Do Republicans understand this? Now they care about the debt and deficits?

And did you know that Bush didn't count the Iraq war in his budget but Obama does? Makes a big difference but Republicans don't like to admit that either.

 

[rightwinger]

Chris respectfully posts facts about the Republican Party. Board right-wingers don't like those facts so they taunt, call him names and neg the crap out of him

Everything he posts is true

especially about Clinton leaving Bush with a budget surplus

LOL Rosy projections

Making you an outright Liar.


But to prove your point post the debt figures by year.

Auto........let me give you some advice

When you try to rewrite history, you need to be sure what side you were on at the time. I offer as my expert on whether or not there was a budget surplus none other than George Bush

A month after he was sworn in he made the following claim to Congress

The growing surplus exists because taxes are too high and government is charging more than it needs. The people of America have been overcharged and on their behalf, I am here to ask for a refund.

Some say my tax plan is too big, others say it is too small. I respectfully disagree. This tax relief is just right.

.

Bush talked of a "growing surplus" and used it as a justification to demand his first tax cut.

So which was it.....was Bush given a surplus or not?



Online NewsHour: President Bush's address to Congress -- February 27, 2001

 

[sealybobo]

Chris respectfully posts facts about the Republican Party. Board right-wingers don't like those facts so they taunt, call him names and neg the crap out of him

Everything he posts is true

especially about Clinton leaving Bush with a budget surplus

LOL Rosy projections

Making you an outright Liar.


But to prove your point post the debt figures by year.

Who would have expected the GOP would get us into two 10 year wars?

Or send 7 million jobs overseas? Bye bye tax revenue.

Or pass tax breaks and loopholes that let millionaires send their money offshore? Romney only pays 12% in taxes on the money he keeps here in the USA. So in reality, he isn't even paying 12%. He's paying less! Why would the GOP do this to America? Because the rich told them to.

Or give tax breaks to the rich while simultaniously fighting two wars??? Never been done before in history. Not American history, WORLD HISTORY! No country has ever started a 2 war and at the same time give tax breaks to the rich. It makes no sense. Almost like they wanted to bankrupt the country so they could kill social programs like social security and medicare. Not to mention they want to destroy unions and with it, the middle class.

 

[sealybobo]

Chris respectfully posts facts about the Republican Party. Board right-wingers don't like those facts so they taunt, call him names and neg the crap out of him

Everything he posts is true

especially about Clinton leaving Bush with a budget surplus

LOL Rosy projections

Making you an outright Liar.


But to prove your point post the debt figures by year.

Auto........let me give you some advice

When you try to rewrite history, you need to be sure what side you were on at the time. I offer as my expert on whether or not there was a budget surplus none other than George Bush

A month after he was sworn in he made the following claim to Congress

The growing surplus exists because taxes are too high and government is charging more than it needs. The people of America have been overcharged and on their behalf, I am here to ask for a refund.

Some say my tax plan is too big, others say it is too small. I respectfully disagree. This tax relief is just right.

.

Bush talked of a "growing surplus" and used it as a justification to demand his first tax cut.

So which was it.....was Bush given a surplus or not?



Online NewsHour: President Bush's address to Congress -- February 27, 2001

You know if it was President Dole, Auto would be arguing that it was a surplus.

 

[Listening]

I can't speak for Chris, but I think any middle class person voting Republican is stupid.

Well, you sound just like him. You first poison the argument and then proceed to make it.

Voting for a party that is attacking the middle class the way the GOP has.

Crap.

I don't know if Chris outright calls them stupid, but I'm sure his responses must imply it because there is no other explanation. And if they can't get what he's saying, maybe they are stupid.

No argument so far....par for the course.

Chris posts drivel like "Obama has done a good job". He then gives him credit for all kinds of things and continues to hold the liberal article of faith that Obama somehow saved us from a catastrophic depression. All of which is unprovable. But let's not let reality get in the way of someone's view of the world. Especially, given that Chris makes him money by selling houses to the government lackeys that move to the area to server our bloated federal beast.

Or maybe you could call it brainwashed,

And we could call you braindead.

maybe their parents were conservative or maybe they are born with a conservative gene, conned by the corporate media, or they are conned with wedge issues like god gays and guns, or racism.

Ah yes, arguing the fringe again. I hated the Jeremiah Wright discussions...could not care less about Bill Ayres (sp?). And love that you guys whined about it but are no different.

Either way they are being suckered to vote against their own financial interests.

Another unprovable statement. Just because someone has more than me does not mean I don't have enough (or as much as I want). Now, if I belonged to a union, I would know I was entitled to more than I am getting...no matter how much that is.

There has to be something wrong with a person to not realize the GOP have waged class warfare on the middle class.

Sound like Obama..."It's wrong for a person to say...."

Who died and left your sorry ass in charge of making these judgements ? If this is the best you can do, it's no wonder you guys lost the house so quickly.

There is no other explanation for why a middle class person would vote for the GOP other than they aren't that underinformed, misinformed, brainwashed, don't get it or stupid.

Really ? No other explanation. You must be one of those open minded liberals.

Great circular arguments are to be had here.

But, only a hack like yourself would publish this tripe knowing full good and well that isn't the case. What you are really saying is that anyone who does not agree with you must be mentally deficient. With the rare exceptions of propaganda farters like Chris, I've come ot undersand that people have different trade offs they are willing to live with. And while I can't see why people are willing to give up their liberties, I know that in many cases they don't see it as being as important as I do.

Hence we have a political process.

Sorry to break it to you. But, your sense of arrogance comes off as smelling like used toilet paper.

To defend the GOP after the last 12 years??? Only a very rich or very stupid person can do this.

Well, a whole lot of people pretty much said the democrats can take a hike. And you won't see the house reversing and the senate likely crosses over.

So there must be a lot of rich or stupid people in this world.

Your only dilema is that much of your party is made up of people who live the lower classes and benefit from entitlements. They must be the smart ones.

Try it again Junior.

 

[Listening]

Chris, like anyone is entitled to his opinion. He usually backs his opinions with facts

You don't "back" an opinion with facts or it would not be an opinion.

Chris make stupid claims and never backs them with anything.

Saying Obama has done a good job is not an opinion. It is a claim. If he qualified it as such, he might get a few nanograms of respect.

 

[rightwinger]

Chris, like anyone is entitled to his opinion. He usually backs his opinions with facts

You don't "back" an opinion with facts or it would not be an opinion.

Chris make stupid claims and never backs them with anything.

Saying Obama has done a good job is not an opinion. It is a claim. If he qualified it as such, he might get a few nanograms of respect.

Chris is wrong...


Obama is doing a great job

 

[Listening]

Chris, like anyone is entitled to his opinion. He usually backs his opinions with facts

You don't "back" an opinion with facts or it would not be an opinion.

Chris make stupid claims and never backs them with anything.

Saying Obama has done a good job is not an opinion. It is a claim. If he qualified it as such, he might get a few nanograms of respect.

Chris is wrong...

Every time.

 

[Listening]

Obama is doing a great job

And Sealybobob thinks we are brainwashed !!!

 

[Oldstyle]

I agree. Republicans never like talk about the details/facts. You only get talking points.

I have tried my best but they will never stay on subject or when you make a point, they disregard that point.

I hate it when they say Clinton signed NAFTA. So in other words, totally ignore the fact that Bush 1 created NAFTA and just didn't have time to sign it because he was a one term president. Forget the fact that its the GOP that loves free unregulated trade, which is what sent all the jobs overseas. Facts are messy.

Just like with healthcare reform. Forget if Obamacare is good or not, why did the GOP fight us every step of the way on any Healthcare reform at all? Did they not realize that Healthcare companies were gouging us and denying people coverage because they wanted to be more profitable?

Or that Wallstreet Oil Speculators are the reason for high gas prices, not Drill Baby Drill. The facts would be bad for Republicans because they work for Wallstreet.

If the GOP knew what facts were, they wouldn't be denying global warming.

The GOP liked Romney because of his "business experience". They never bothered to look at what he did as a businessman. Ruin companies and profit from it. Screw middle class workers. Renig on pensions and send jobs overseas for cheaper labor. If the GOP talk about the nitty gritty details, they lose.

I love Chris.

I have repeatedly asked for anywhere where Chris is being disrespectful as the wing nuts claim. I can show thread after thread where the right wing dog pile attacks him, calls names and pats each other on the back.....I never see Chris reciprocating

Chris, like anyone is entitled to his opinion. He usually backs his opinions with facts

Like that Clinton left Bush a budget surplus. Republicans hate to admit it, but it is still a fact and Chris is correct

They say it wasn't really a surplus but the fact is, under the same standards/formula that Bush produced a deficit, Clinton's, under the same guidelines, was officially a surplus. It may have been a projected deficit but none the less.

Or remember they defended Bush for sending each of us $500 bucks? Remember that? None of them cried that it was adding to the debt. They said if we didn't like it to send it back.

The fact is, if he didn't send us that money he would have officially been in a recession. Without that spending, he had 3 straight quarters of failure and he would have officially been in a recession. Do Republicans understand this? Now they care about the debt and deficits?

And did you know that Bush didn't count the Iraq war in his budget but Obama does? Makes a big difference but Republicans don't like to admit that either.

Why did the GOP fight you every step of the way on health care reform? For starters, Sealy...the reform that the American people "wanted" was lower cost to their health care. Instead of passing legislation to lower costs however, Harry, Nancy and Barry seized the moment and attempted to pass universal health care. Despite constant polling that showed the public wasn't in favor of what they were proposing, the progressives that had taken control of this country forged ahead with their "chance of a lifetime" to finally get the holy grail of liberalism. ObamaCare doesn't address health care costs...IT ADDS TO THEM!!! But you guys didn't care about that...did you? This Administration passed one of the most badly written pieces of legislation in the history of this nation because they couldn't get members of their own party to go along with what they wanted and then the voters stepped in and slapped them down with the Scott Brown election and then the 2010 mid-terms. ObamaCare sucks to be plain and simple about it. You know it...I know it...even the idiots who wrote it know it. But they saw it as a "first step" so they pushed it through anyways...regardless of whether it did the job...and totally regardless of the fact that we can't pay for it.

 

[JoeB131]

Why do you think the midterm elections went so bad for democrats? Only reason it wasn't worse was because the idiot Tea Partiers didn't know enough to run electable candidates. The 2010 elections went bad for you because you fucked up; you lost the confidence and good opinion of the voters. No need to list the littany of bad decisions, suffice it to say you should've addressed the problems the country wanted you to fix but instead you were more interested in your party's agenda. And for that same reason I think Obama should also be voted out; dunno if it'll happen, much depends on the economy and the UE numbers this year. But he screwed up, could've and should've done a better job even though the situation he inherited was very tough.

I don't read a lot into 2010 and never did. Mid Terms are frequently counter-intuitive. Out of power parties did well in 1994, 1986, 1982, etc. and the in power party STILL won re-election and even retook some of what they lost.

In Congress, keep in mind, that national map leaned GOP to start with.

I think Obama should be voted out, but not if my alternative is Romney or Ron Paul. And I'm becoming less thrilled with Santorum, who can't seem to keep out of the weeds.

 

[Greenbeard]

ObamaCare doesn't address health care costs...IT ADDS TO THEM!!!

Repeating it over and over doesn't make it true. It's got some of the right's favorite cost control ideas in it, including encouraging more use of higher-deductible plans and HSAs to give consumers more "skin in the game," as well as greater competition and consumer choice through allowing insurers to sell out-of-state or in multiple states. It even lifted the tort reform language from a Republican reform bill, Mike Enzi's 2008 "Ten Steps to Transform Health Care in America Act."

Of course, it has cost control strategies liberals wanted to see like payment reform (rewarding performance, not volume) to move away from inflationary fee-for-service models, greater care coordination and attention to the costs of chronic illness, and more highly integrated care with shared savings for providers who cut costs.

It even has things both sides enjoy, like prevention and wellness incentives, movement toward using health information technology, and the creation of marketplaces where insurers will compete on price and quality. There's also the big drag on health spending, the coming end of the limitless tax subsidy that employer-sponsored insurance plans currently enjoy.