Let's talk about teachers

[chanel]

Waiting for Superman is in theaters now. I have not seen it yet, but there's been a lot of buzz.

Waiting For "Superman" | Trailer & Clips | Official Movie Site

I've been reading a lot of teacher bashing in the news lately, and as many of you know, here in NJ, Chris Christie has been at war with the NJEA. NJ has some of the top public schools in the country and some of the worst in our inner cities. Blaming teachers for school failure (without the kudos for success) seems self-defeating. What I mean by that, is an "us vs. them" mentality can cause horrible morale, which can affect teacher performance and students' attitudes toward education.

I attended public schools in NY, PA, and NJ. Out of about 40 teachers from K-12, I can say I had about three that I did not "like". However, in hindsight, I probably still learned a lot in their classes. I cannot recall one teacher who did not teach.

I'm curious to see how many others believe that teachers are not doing their jobs. What percentage do you feel are truly incompetent?

I do believe that tenure can protect unstable and ineffective teachers. But I also believe that percentage is very, very low. What say you?

 

[Madeline]

Waiting for Superman is in theaters now. I have not seen it yet, but there's been a lot of buzz.

Waiting For "Superman" | Trailer & Clips | Official Movie Site

I've been reading a lot of teacher bashing in the news lately, and as many of you know, here in NJ, Chris Christie has been at war with the NJEA. NJ has some of the top public schools in the country and some of the worst in our inner cities. Blaming teachers for school failure (without the kudos for success) seems self-defeating. What I mean by that, is an "us vs. them" mentality can cause horrible morale, which can affect teacher performance and students' attitudes toward education.

I attended public schools in NY, PA, and NJ. Out of about 40 teachers from K-12, I can say I had about three that I did not "like". However, in hindsight, I probably still learned a lot in their classes. I cannot recall one teacher who did not teach.

I'm curious to see how many others believe that teachers are not doing their jobs. What percentage do you feel are truly incompetent?

I do believe that tenure can protect unstable and ineffective teachers. But I also believe that percentage is very, very low. What say you?

Man, this is a ginormous topic, chanel. K-12 is so long ago, I scarcely remember. I had some real angels among my HS teachers and guidance counselor and would never have gone to college without their intervention. I can recall getting whipped in 1st grade because I could not master phoenics (my parents had taught me to read, and phoenics was just incomprehensible to me) and I had a real nasty bitch of a nun somewhere around 7th grade....but women like that prolly don't even exist anymore.

I have a question for you, though: why do teachers need tenure? Nobody else gets a lifetime job anymore. Why must they have that stupendous security?

 

[chanel]

Tenure protects teachers who are often victims of bogus accusations. Tenure protects teachers who are making a livable wage from being replaced by younger, cheaper employees. Tenure protects teachers who may have a "personality conflct" with an administrator or a highly connected parent in the district.

Tenure does not guarantee a job for life. We have had a few instances of teachers being "asked to leave". They may not have been "fired", thus not showing in the stats; but that's what happened.

The problem with getting rid of bad teachers is the expense of the process. Perhaps that could be tweeked. Blame the lawyers.

But I'm still curious to know how many people think that teaching is a cake job, where people can sit around and read the paper. Students need to be busy bell to bell or they become unruly. I can't imagine any adult doing that to THEMSELVES willingly unless they were into masochism.

 

[Madeline]

Tenure protects teachers who are often victims of bogus accusations. Tenure protects teachers who are making a livable wage from being replaced by younger, cheaper employees. Tenure protects teachers who may have a "personality conflct" with an administrator or a highly connected parent in the district.

Tenure does not guarantee a job for life. We have had a few instances of teachers being "asked to leave". They may not have been "fired", thus not showing in the stats; but that's what happened.

The problem with getting rid of bad teachers is the expense of the process. Perhaps that could be tweeked. Blame the lawyers.

But I'm still curious to know how many people think that teaching is a cake job, where people can sit around and read the paper. Students need to be busy bell to bell or they become unruly. I can't imagine any adult doing that to THEMSELVES willingly unless they were into masochism.

I doubt anyone thinks teaching is easy. In the best of circumstances, it sounds like a tremendous brain drain -- and the work teachers do outside the classroom hours is staggering. In average-to-bad circumstances it sounds as dangerous and taxing as being a prison guard.

Not sure I am buying the tenure arguments you gave, though. Aren't the risks you identified ones people face in many other lines of work? What I don't get is why a more ordinary civil service or union style of protection will not satisfy; why must it be tenure?

 

[Granny]

Boy - it's been eons since I was in school, but I have to say I think my teachers were superior to many of today's teachers. Just about every teacher in my (public) HS had their Masters in their given subjects and some were adjunct professors at University of Richmond. Classroom high-jinks meant detention.

I only have the Richmond school system to compare with, but I'll tell you it's a system in shambles. Even 30+ years ago I refused to live inside the city limits of Richmond because I knew my kids wouldn't get a decent education. I clearly remember one year when there was a mass "exodus" of teachers to attend some college basketball finals rather than being in their classroom teaching students. It was a mess.

 

[chanel]

Madeline - we are talking about other peoples children. You know as well as I that many parents think their babies can do no wrong. And some are willing to hurt someone who they perceive has hurt their child. When I have more time, I'll highlight some of the bogus charges that myself and others have had to defend. No other profession compares ex for maybe the PD. And a simple accusation, no matter how bizarre, can destroy a person.

 

[random3434]

There is a teacher in my building on PIP right now. If she fails again this year, she is gone out of teaching.

Observing her, and listening to the other teachers that work with her, it's for the best.

So at least Indiana has a process for getting rid of "bad" teachers.

 

[Madeline]

Madeline - we are talking about other peoples children. You know as well as I that many parents think their babies can do no wrong. And some are willing to hurt someone who they perceive has hurt their child. When I have more time, I'll highlight some of the bogus charges that myself and others have had to defend. No other profession compares ex for maybe the PD. And a simple accusation, no matter how bizarre, can destroy a person.

You get no argument from me, chanel. I have teacher friends.....I dun know why anyone would do this job. I don't dispute, teachers need protection from arbitrary job loss. But tenure? Cops don't get that, chanel. Prison guards don't. Social workers don't. Do teachers face a higher risk than some of these employees?

 

[Madeline]

There is a teacher in my building on PIP right now. If she fails again this year, she is gone out of teaching.

Observing her, and listening to the other teachers that work with her, it's for the best.

So at least Indiana has a process for getting rid of "bad" teachers.

I saw this creepy episode of L&O where NYC teachers on PIP were sent to "re-education classes" and stayed there. Some for years. I hope to God that was fiction.

 

[chanel]

No It wasn't. The rubber room has got to go. I don't know what kind of job protections the police have, but I imagine its almost the same thing as tenure wouldn't you think?

Our district has "forced out" some bad teachers. There are ways to make people quit - tenure or not.

But back to my original question, how many "bad teachers" are there? And what makes someone a bad teacher? Low test scores or hating children? (There are some of those)

Some of the most "popular" and "cool" teachers are not necessarily effective. Being "liked" certainly helps, but teaching should not be a popularity contest IMHO.

 

[Skull Pilot]

It doesn't take much to see that teachers are nowhere near as good as they used to be.

We used to produce students that could do amazing things like design a plane like the SR 71 with nothing but a slide rule and now we can't even produce students who can count back change for a dollar.

 

[psikeyhackr]

It doesn't take much to see that teachers are nowhere near as good as they used to be.

We used to produce students that could do amazing things like design a plane like the SR 71 with nothing but a slide rule and now we can't even produce students who can count back change for a dollar.

The Blackbird was a really cool plane. They started the design work in 1958 and it was flying in 1964. So how may of those engineers grew up watching television?

Television and now computer with the internet are an uncontrolled experiment on kids' nervous system. The teachers have to deal with the results. But we are not being told all of the possibilities.

Computers as tutors - section I

My grade school was so bad I thought high school was great. The nuns NEVER taught science and were terrible at math. I learned most science because of science fiction books. They taught me the words to research. Like agnostic and atheist.

We need to consider how much schools control what kids know.

Why don't we have a national recommended reading list? How many kids want to learn but have to wade through too much garbage and don't know enough to recognize good stuff when they see it? Is that too complicated an idea for our politicians?

psik

 

[Annie]

It doesn't take much to see that teachers are nowhere near as good as they used to be.

We used to produce students that could do amazing things like design a plane like the SR 71 with nothing but a slide rule and now we can't even produce students who can count back change for a dollar.

The Blackbird was a really cool plane. They started the design work in 1958 and it was flying in 1964. So how may of those engineers grew up watching television?

Television and now computer with the internet are an uncontrolled experiment on kids' nervous system. The teachers have to deal with the results. But we are not being told all of the possibilities.

Computers as tutors - section I

My grade school was so bad I thought high school was great. The nuns NEVER taught science and were terrible at math. I learned most science because of science fiction books. They taught me the words to research. Like agnostic and atheist.

We need to consider how much schools control what kids know.

Why don't we have a national recommended reading list? How many kids want to learn but have to wade through too much garbage and don't know enough to recognize good stuff when they see it? Is that too complicated an idea for our politicians?

psik

There are tons of suggested reading lists for students, my favorite would be Great Books, I think an emphasis on the classics helps build better vocabulary and thinking skills, but that's just my opinion. There are good lists put out by organizations, such as ALA.

 

[Madeline]

No It wasn't. The rubber room has got to go. I don't know what kind of job protections the police have, but I imagine its almost the same thing as tenure wouldn't you think?

Our district has "forced out" some bad teachers. There are ways to make people quit - tenure or not.

But back to my original question, how many "bad teachers" are there? And what makes someone a bad teacher? Low test scores or hating children? (There are some of those)

Some of the most "popular" and "cool" teachers are not necessarily effective. Being "liked" certainly helps, but teaching should not be a popularity contest IMHO.

Well, I am no expert but I think a cop's union and civil service protection essentially prevents him from being fired for a bad reason, whereas tenure vests some sort of property right in the job in the teacher. (BTW I am no fan of tenure for higher education instructors either.) One result of this difference is (I think, I could be wrong) if Cleveland wants to maintain its traffic division whilst reducing its detective force by a third, it can do so without a whole lot of seniority/bumping bullshit.

I don't know how many "bad teachers" there are but I'll be honest, chanel. I wonder what would motivate anyone to teach in a public school, especially a high school, in Cleveland. There prolly are some terrific teachers but seriously, how many of us would risk our physical and mental well-being for what? $45,000 a year plus benefits? You really gonna tell me there are no fuck ups or sadists -- and a high percent -- in this group?

Civic Report 50 | How Much Are Public School Teachers Paid?

My sister in law teaches here, in a Cleveland magnet school. Fourth grade math. The things she says about students and parents would shock the shit out of you -- this woman despises the students and their parents. I think she's unfit and shouldn't be teaching....but apparently her principal likes her. Mebbe the bitterness she displays is normal in a woman who has been teaching since the 1970's, but until a couple of years ago, she worked at a Catholic school in a wealthy suburb and she hated those kids and parents as well.

 

[Mr. H.]

Wife had 4 years with the district. Glowing reviews from other teachers, the admins, and parents.
It's a 12 hour a day job, often times weekends. She spent hundreds of dollars of her paycheck each school year just to keep her kids in needed supplies.

Here reward? "Pack your bags". Riffed.

It's a social network bereft with nepotism. It's such bullshit.

 

[Granny]

Madeline - we are talking about other peoples children. You know as well as I that many parents think their babies can do no wrong. And some are willing to hurt someone who they perceive has hurt their child. When I have more time, I'll highlight some of the bogus charges that myself and others have had to defend. No other profession compares ex for maybe the PD. And a simple accusation, no matter how bizarre, can destroy a person.

Parents whose children can do no wrong are a part of the problem as well. There are a lot of factors involved in the steady decline of quality education. There are some really good teachers out there, but I'm convinced based on what I've seen and heard from other parents that those good teachers are in the minority.

 

[chanel]

Wife had 4 years with the district. Glowing reviews from other teachers, the admins, and parents.
It's a 12 hour a day job, often times weekends. She spent hundreds of dollars of her paycheck each school year just to keep her kids in needed supplies.

Here reward? "Pack your bags". Riffed.

It's a social network bereft with nepotism. It's such bullshit.

I'm sorry to hear that Mr. H. We had many excellent teachers riffed last year as well. That's why I believe tenure is necessary. It can't protect everyone in times of budget crisis, but the nepotism and favoritism shown toward teachers "who don't ruffle any feathers" is widespread. Tell her not to give up. Some of my friends ended up with better paying jobs in other districts.

And granny - I disagree that good teachers are in the minority, but I believe that your opinion is shared by many, many people. The irony is that many of the teachers in my district send their kids to Catholic school (and many are not Catholic). But it's not because of the teachers. It's mostly because of safety and discipline, something that public school teachers have very little control of these days.

 

[Samson]

Well, I've taught, and been an assistant principal, but I couldn't really give you a very accurate % of "Good" Teachers.

Teaching is not nearly as much learned by people who have a BA in Education as it is a something for which a person either has a talent for, or they don't.

This isn't apparent for the first two years anyone teaches, because it takes so much organization. A person who is naturally organized, e.g. who knows what time it is without looking at a clock and who ALWAYS carries a highlighter and a red pen has a tremendous advantage.

However, the third year teacher begins to benefit from a combination of organization and flexiblility. Being able to improvise...."roll with the punches," as it were, AND STILL remain organized is the name of the game.

Thirdly, if both these things become innate in a person's character, the last essential quality to develop is a sixth sense for empathy with kids.


Finally, the last thing, but not least to develop, is how to deal with adults: Parents, other Teachers, and Administrators. IMHO most teachers never get this far, but are still great teachers as long as they are shielded from other adults. Some administrators will recognise their value and shield them, others simply allow them to be eaten alive.

 

[chanel]

You are absolutely right. However Samson, as a VP, what percentage of teachers in your old school do you believe deserved to be FIRED? We all want "excellent" teachers in every classroom, but not only is that subjective, it's not feasible. You do not have 100% excellent employees in any field. However, people who really suck at their job usually get the ax. What percentage is that? I don't know one person in my inner circle who has ever been fired from their job.

 

[Samson]

You are absolutely right. However Samson, as a VP, what percentage of teachers in your old school do you believe deserved to be FIRED? We all want "excellent" teachers in every classroom, but not only is that subjective, it's not feasible. You do not have 100% excellent employees in any field. However, people who really suck at their job usually get the ax. What percentage is that? I don't know one person in my inner circle who has ever been fired from their job.

I don't believe any teacher I've ever known deserved to be fired, but really.......

The kids fire the teachers, if you let them.