Let's see if you are a Theologian/Philosopher.

[editec]

Please note: this is a follow thru on Glenn Beck's POLITICAL presentation on Jews having killed Jesus.

Whether Wikipedia's narrative is correct or not, let's assume Caiaphas (High Priest of the Jewish Sanhedrin) was instrumental in snuffing Jesus.

This raises a philosophical point: Is Caiaphas in Hell (providing Hell exists) ?

The answer to that is simple: Of course, the Religious would say YES.

But, by far the more interesting question would then be raised: WHY ?????

Didn't GOD THE OMNISCIENT KNOW BEFORE HE CREATED Caiaphas (whether Caiaphas has free will or not) that Caiaphas would bump off Jesus ?

Why punish Caiaphas (whom God created) for something the Omniscient God KNEW would happen ....... whether Caiaphas had free will, or not ??????

Would YOU punish someone for what YOU created......knowing it will happen when YOU created it ?????

Philosophers: FRONT & CENTER !!!!!!

This isn't philosophy (the love of knowledge), this is an invitation to debate theology (the love of God).

The two are not at ALL the same thing. There isn't enough common ground between them to even have rational discourse.

Philosophy starts from the premise of asking what CAN be known?

Theology starts from the premise of demanding that one accept the UNKNOWABLE though faith.

Editec,

You are correct as to the differentiation of premises.

Thank you.

Whether my OP is classified as strictly Philosophy or Theology....or a mixture of the two.......the choice is yours.

They really cannot be mixed. That was sort of my point.

But, you are completely wrong on one point.

I raised some questions. If you are able to answer them .... do so.

You asked questions about what some people of faith believe and invite them to defend the indefensible (logically or philosophically).

Like I say if you do not understand why this is largely a waste of time, then you miss the critical difference between FAITH and KNOWING.

If you are not able to.......obviously, you can hide behind your labeling them as irrational.

Do I seem to be hiding to you?

And, that is your prerogative.

No, actually I pretty much have no choice. This is the way I think about things.

But as far as I'm concerned, you are either not mentally qualified.

Or I do know how to punctuate? (sorry, couldn't resist the temptation, amigo. Do go on)

Or, you simply want to dodge the issue because your rationalizations would spell your defeat of longheld religious views that cannot stand rigorous scrutiny.

You don't have a clue what my "longheld religious views" even are, sport.

My bet is the second option.

I'm sorry you feel like I was insulting you, Gaut.

All I was trying to do was point out why such debates lead nowwhere.

Nobody can debate religion philosophically any more than they can dance to the tune of architecture.

What you hope to do is to debate somebody's religios FAITH from a philosophical standpoint thus proving to yourself that their FAITH has no grounds in the world of logic.

What I hoped to do in my first post was show you that FAITH is that which lays no CLAIM to being logical.

If you're truly a rational philosopher I think you think yourself, you'd already understand that.

 

[gautama]

Forgiveness hass everything to do with God. Even Hitler and all that he did had ask for forgiveness for his sins before he died and had not killed himself would be in Heaven today. But only God can be the judge of that. Forgiveness and repentence is the key as to who does and doesn't go to Heaven

bigrepnc,

I won't agree or disagree with you because my hands are full with MY issue........which you are STILL DODGING.....or NOT UNDERSTANDING.

Later, when I have time I may respond to your SEPARATE ISSUE that COMPLETELY MISSES THE POINTS I AM RAISING.

Correct me if I am wrong.
The point that you are trying to make is, that if God used Caiaphas do have Jesus killed why would God have him sent to hell if he had done Gods will.
Is this correct?

Bigrepnc,

In essence, you have understood my point.

My point is that there is an incontrovertible INCONSISTENCY in Christian Dogma.

The bottom line is this: According to Christian Dogma GOD IS OMNIPOTENT. Thus GOD CREATED EVERYTHING. Free will or no free will, whether the miscreant recants or not. GOD CREATED THIS MISCREANT.

GOD IS OMNISCIENT therefore GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING AHEAD OF TIME. In other words, God knows ahead of time what his miscreants will do (free will, or no free will). In our example Caiaphas's heinous deeds (or the heinous deeds of millions of other miscreants....free will or not......recants or not).....BEING OMNISCIENT, GOD KNOWS THE ULTIMATE RESULT.

YET.....according to Christian Dogma, God ULTIMATELY punishes the unrepentant miscreants.......KNOWING AHEAD OF TIME, BEING OMNISCIENT.....that HE (God) The OMNIPOTENT CREATED THESE UNREPENTANT MISCREANTS.

Hence my question: Would YOU punish someone YOU created knowing full well what he will do WHEN YOU CREATED HIM ?????

 

[bigrebnc1775]

bigrepnc,

I won't agree or disagree with you because my hands are full with MY issue........which you are STILL DODGING.....or NOT UNDERSTANDING.

Later, when I have time I may respond to your SEPARATE ISSUE that COMPLETELY MISSES THE POINTS I AM RAISING.

Correct me if I am wrong.
The point that you are trying to make is, that if God used Caiaphas do have Jesus killed why would God have him sent to hell if he had done Gods will.
Is this correct?

Bigrepnc,

In essence, you have understood my point.

My point is that there is an incontrovertible INCONSISTENCY in Christian Dogma.

The bottom line is this: According to Christian Dogma GOD IS OMNIPOTENT. Thus GOD CREATED EVERYTHING. Free will or no free will, whether the miscreant recants or not. GOD CREATED THIS MISCREANT.

GOD IS OMNISCIENT therefore GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING AHEAD OF TIME. In other words, God knows ahead of time what his miscreants will do (free will, or no free will). In our example Caiaphas's heinous deeds (or the heinous deeds of millions of other miscreants....free will or not......recants or not).....BEING OMNISCIENT, GOD KNOWS THE ULTIMATE RESULT.

YET.....according to Christian Dogma, God ULTIMATELY punishes the unrepentant miscreants.......KNOWING AHEAD OF TIME, BEING OMNISCIENT.....that HE (God) The OMNIPOTENT CREATED THESE UNREPENTANT MISCREANTS.

Hence my question: Would YOU punish someone YOU created knowing full well what he will do WHEN YOU CREATED HIM ?????

That why I said everybody has over looked the act of forgiveness and repentance. If Caiaphas repented and asked for forgiveness then yes he is in Heaven. But that is for God to decide.
Anyone can go to Heaven all they have to do is ask for forgivness and repent of their sins.

 

[gautama]

This isn't philosophy (the love of knowledge), this is an invitation to debate theology (the love of God).

The two are not at ALL the same thing. There isn't enough common ground between them to even have rational discourse.

Philosophy starts from the premise of asking what CAN be known?

Theology starts from the premise of demanding that one accept the UNKNOWABLE though faith.

Editec,
Thank you.

They really cannot be mixed. That was sort of my point.

You asked questions about what some people of faith believe and invite them to defend the indefensible (logically or philosophically).

Like I say if you do not understand why this is largely a waste of time, then you miss the critical difference between FAITH and KNOWING.

Do I seem to be hiding to you?

No, actually I pretty much have no choice. This is the way I think about things.

Or I do know how to punctuate? (sorry, couldn't resist the temptation, amigo. Do go on)

You don't have a clue what my "longheld religious views" even are, sport.

My bet is the second option.

I'm sorry you feel like I was insulting you, Gaut.
All I was trying to do was point out why such debates lead nowwhere.
Nobody can debate religion philosophically any more than they can dance to the tune of architecture.
What you hope to do is to debate somebody's religios FAITH from a philosophical standpoint thus proving to yourself that their FAITH has no grounds in the world of logic.
What I hoped to do in my first post was show you that FAITH is that which lays no CLAIM to being logical.
If you're truly a rational philosopher I think you think yourself, you'd already understand that.

Editec,

You mentioned somewhere in your post that you weren't "hiding" in a somewhat aggrieved tone.

Sorry..... AMIGO, but when you dubbed my post, in so many words, as irrational and a waste of time.....I couldn't help but to come to the conclusion that you were NOT going to waste your time on something that was irrational and a waste of time.

You claim that Philosophy and Theology cannot be mixed with any appreciable degree of rationality. IOW, it's a waste of time. I assume that is a fair statement of your position.

I disagree.

For instance: whereas the existence of God is UNKNOWABLE, and can STILL be accepted on FAITH (Theology)......Accepting that God is an apple. Or, your demented daughter is God, etc., even though it's in the realm of FAITH ..... is PHILOSOPHICALLY UNACCEPTABLE.

In other words, there are OBVIOUS LIMITS on FAITH that are delineated not only by LOGIC.....but by PHILOSOPHY, where one is driven by love of wisdom, and which using your own words are governed by "what CAN be known".

When a Religious Dogma becomes RIDICULOUSLY NONSENSICAL and challenges RATIONALITY whether it be flagrantly violating LOGIC or PHILOSOPHICAL PRECEPTS such as "A=A" with " A is not A" (example a "Virgin is NOT a Virgin"). Or, abject nonsense such as "people treading on water", "rising from the dead", etc.....then PHILOSOPHY may enter the arena where it can co-exist in a discussion pertaining to FAITH.

An example of the latter, where FAITH can and does coexist with PHILOSOPHY is the following BELIEF : If God exists, God is the Sum Total of the Laws of the Universe. Praying to such a God is like praying to a Lightening so it won't strike you. When we die, we'll be fertilizer not unlike the cockroaches scurrying around hither and yon. This is MY version of God. It so happens it is Spinoza's and Einstein's God as well.

BTW, I can't resist bragging that I came to that belief at the age of ~14 without the benefit of knowing Spinoza's or Einstein's thoughts on this matter.

So, AMIGO.....what say you ?

Do you consider the above irrational ????

A waste of time ????

Or, are you going to go against your initial judgment .... AMIGO ???

I'm going to take care of some stuff I have to do. But I will be back to enlighten you if you need further assistance.

 

[gautama]

Correct me if I am wrong.
The point that you are trying to make is, that if God used Caiaphas do have Jesus killed why would God have him sent to hell if he had done Gods will.
Is this correct?

Bigrepnc,

In essence, you have understood my point.

My point is that there is an incontrovertible INCONSISTENCY in Christian Dogma.

The bottom line is this: According to Christian Dogma GOD IS OMNIPOTENT. Thus GOD CREATED EVERYTHING. Free will or no free will, whether the miscreant recants or not. GOD CREATED THIS MISCREANT.

GOD IS OMNISCIENT therefore GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING AHEAD OF TIME. In other words, God knows ahead of time what his miscreants will do (free will, or no free will). In our example Caiaphas's heinous deeds (or the heinous deeds of millions of other miscreants....free will or not......recants or not).....BEING OMNISCIENT, GOD KNOWS THE ULTIMATE RESULT.

YET.....according to Christian Dogma, God ULTIMATELY punishes the unrepentant miscreants.......KNOWING AHEAD OF TIME, BEING OMNISCIENT.....that HE (God) The OMNIPOTENT CREATED THESE UNREPENTANT MISCREANTS.

Hence my question: Would YOU punish someone YOU created knowing full well what he will do WHEN YOU CREATED HIM ?????

That why I said everybody has over looked the act of forgiveness and repentance. If Caiaphas repented and asked for forgiveness then yes he is in Heaven. But that is for God to decide.
Anyone can go to Heaven all they have to do is ask for forgivness and repent of their sins.

Bigrepnc,

Sorry ole buddy.......we are NOT on the same page.

You keep going on and on about repentance, and forgiveness and God's decision in these matters.

MY POINT IS THAT GOD AS THE OMNISCIENT, OMNIPOTENT, and OMNIPRESENT doesn't sit around deciding who goes to Heaven or Hell.

If God is OMNISCIENT, OMNIPOTENT and OMNIPRESENT THEN HE (GOD) ALREADY KNEW WHO and WHERE EVERY ONE OF HIS CREATIONS ARE GOING AHEAD OF TIME.....BY DEFINITION OF BEING THE GOD.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Bigrepnc,

In essence, you have understood my point.

My point is that there is an incontrovertible INCONSISTENCY in Christian Dogma.

The bottom line is this: According to Christian Dogma GOD IS OMNIPOTENT. Thus GOD CREATED EVERYTHING. Free will or no free will, whether the miscreant recants or not. GOD CREATED THIS MISCREANT.

GOD IS OMNISCIENT therefore GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING AHEAD OF TIME. In other words, God knows ahead of time what his miscreants will do (free will, or no free will). In our example Caiaphas's heinous deeds (or the heinous deeds of millions of other miscreants....free will or not......recants or not).....BEING OMNISCIENT, GOD KNOWS THE ULTIMATE RESULT.

YET.....according to Christian Dogma, God ULTIMATELY punishes the unrepentant miscreants.......KNOWING AHEAD OF TIME, BEING OMNISCIENT.....that HE (God) The OMNIPOTENT CREATED THESE UNREPENTANT MISCREANTS.

Hence my question: Would YOU punish someone YOU created knowing full well what he will do WHEN YOU CREATED HIM ?????

That why I said everybody has over looked the act of forgiveness and repentance. If Caiaphas repented and asked for forgiveness then yes he is in Heaven. But that is for God to decide.
Anyone can go to Heaven all they have to do is ask for forgivness and repent of their sins.

Bigrepnc,

Sorry ole buddy.......we are NOT on the same page.

You keep going on and on about repentance, and forgiveness and God's decision in these matters.

MY POINT IS THAT GOD AS THE OMNISCIENT, OMNIPOTENT, and OMNIPRESENT doesn't sit around deciding who goes to Heaven or Hell.

If God is OMNISCIENT, OMNIPOTENT and OMNIPRESENT THEN HE (GOD) ALREADY KNEW WHO and WHERE EVERY ONE OF HIS CREATIONS ARE GOING AHEAD OF TIME.....BY DEFINITION OF BEING THE GOD.

My point that I am trying to make is this.
If you do not repent and ask for forgiveness of your sins you will not make it to Heaven even people who think they are good people will not make it into Heaven. Yes only God knows if Caiaphas asked fr forgiveness before he died.
Yes it was in the plans for Caiaphas to do what he did, God also gave him a way out to repent of that sin.

 

[sparky]

methinks Judas should be called to the witness stand......>


the Gospel of Judas appears to interpret Judas's act not as betrayal, but rather as an act of obedience to the instructions of Jesus. This assumption is taken on the basis that Jesus required a second agent to set in motion a course of events which he had planned. In that sense Judas acted as a catalyst. The action of Judas, then, was a pivotal point which interconnected a series of simultaneous pre-orchestrated events.

Gospel of Judas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gospel of Judas?
Where is the gospel of Judas mentioned?
New Testament Books Index

Oh, it's one of the many that didn't make the cut, or were excluded due to the politics of the day.....

 

[bigrebnc1775]

methinks Judas should be called to the witness stand......>


the Gospel of Judas appears to interpret Judas's act not as betrayal, but rather as an act of obedience to the instructions of Jesus. This assumption is taken on the basis that Jesus required a second agent to set in motion a course of events which he had planned. In that sense Judas acted as a catalyst. The action of Judas, then, was a pivotal point which interconnected a series of simultaneous pre-orchestrated events.

Gospel of Judas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gospel of Judas?
Where is the gospel of Judas mentioned?
New Testament Books Index

Oh, it's one of the many that didn't make the cut, or were excluded due to the politics of the day.....

Really? It wasn't added because God did not dictate that it be added. it's un-Biblical, not blessed by God but by Satan. It doesnot have any spiritual support of those "gospel"

 

[gautama]

That why I said everybody has over looked the act of forgiveness and repentance. If Caiaphas repented and asked for forgiveness then yes he is in Heaven. But that is for God to decide.
Anyone can go to Heaven all they have to do is ask for forgivness and repent of their sins.

Bigrepnc,

Sorry ole buddy.......we are NOT on the same page.

You keep going on and on about repentance, and forgiveness and God's decision in these matters.

MY POINT IS THAT GOD AS THE OMNISCIENT, OMNIPOTENT, and OMNIPRESENT doesn't sit around deciding who goes to Heaven or Hell.

If God is OMNISCIENT, OMNIPOTENT and OMNIPRESENT THEN HE (GOD) ALREADY KNEW WHO and WHERE EVERY ONE OF HIS CREATIONS ARE GOING AHEAD OF TIME.....BY DEFINITION OF BEING THE GOD.

My point that I am trying to make is this.
If you do not repent and ask for forgiveness of your sins you will not make it to Heaven even people who think they are good people will not make it into Heaven. Yes only God knows if Caiaphas asked fr forgiveness before he died.
Yes it was in the plans for Caiaphas to do what he did, God also gave him a way out to repent of that sin.

Bigrepnc,

BELIEVE ME: I understood you and your Religious Dogma the very first time.

But, sorry ole buddy......we are discussing DIFFERENT concepts.

Gottago.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Look at the options, if the prophesies needed to be fulfilled it all had to happen exactly as it did as documented by the atheist Romans. Pilot washed his hand having found no fault with Jesus, the crowd chose to free Barabbas instead of Jesus. Its all predestined, and it happens all the time in zillions of alternate dimensions and universes. So don't strain your brain, just enjoy the ride.

Kyzr and Gunny, you are BOTH dodging the question in your own different ways.

If God (being Omniscient) creating Caiaphas, KNEW ahead of time that Caiaphas (whether he has free will or not) would be instrumental in snuffing out Jesus.......WHY WOULD GOD PUNISH CAIAPHAS WHOM GOD KNEW AHEAD OF TIME WOULD PERPETRATE THAT ACT??????

Would YOU punish someone (whether he has free will or not) when
YOU KNEW that by creating him ( and knowing ahead of time what will happen) that he would perperate the heinous act......PUNISH THE PERSON YOU CREATED WITH THAT FOREKNOWLEDGE ?????

Why would God punish anyone then?

 

[gautama]

Look at the options, if the prophesies needed to be fulfilled it all had to happen exactly as it did as documented by the atheist Romans. Pilot washed his hand having found no fault with Jesus, the crowd chose to free Barabbas instead of Jesus. Its all predestined, and it happens all the time in zillions of alternate dimensions and universes. So don't strain your brain, just enjoy the ride.

Kyzr and Gunny, you are BOTH dodging the question in your own different ways.

If God (being Omniscient) creating Caiaphas, KNEW ahead of time that Caiaphas (whether he has free will or not) would be instrumental in snuffing out Jesus.......WHY WOULD GOD PUNISH CAIAPHAS WHOM GOD KNEW AHEAD OF TIME WOULD PERPETRATE THAT ACT??????

Would YOU punish someone (whether he has free will or not) when
YOU KNEW that by creating him ( and knowing ahead of time what will happen) that he would perperate the heinous act......PUNISH THE PERSON YOU CREATED WITH THAT FOREKNOWLEDGE ?????

Why would God punish anyone then?

EXACTLY MY POINT !!!

The Christian Dogma, with God rewarding the good, punishing the evil, Heaven, Hell......makes no sense USING THEIR OWN DOGMA (as I have proven). And, goes way beyond the REASONABLE requirements where one may have FAITH IN THE UNKNOWABLE ....and STILL be a rational person.

Of course, the boundaries of FAITH are murky BEYOND BELIEF....but, admittedly, IMO, determined by what may be HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of religious crazies who appear and behave in a perfectly normal way in every sense of the word, in the real world. Unfortunately these religious delusions are THE NORM and are undoubtedly driven by EARLY AGE BRAINWASHING and the FEAR OF THE HEREAFTER. And, it is I who is the Abnormal......the odd man out.

BTW, I was raised as a Catholic and attended a Catholic School.

The Muslims are not to be outdone: First they believe in MOHAHAHAHAMED, a HISTORICALLY DOCUMENTED MURDERER, RAPIST (he raped and fucked Ayesha who was 9 yrs old) and a THIEF. Their heaven is replete with drugs and eminently fuckable hoochie-koochie dancers, etc.