Let's see if you are a Theologian/Philosopher.

[gautama]

Please note: this is a follow thru on Glenn Beck's POLITICAL presentation on Jews having killed Jesus.

Whether Wikipedia's narrative is correct or not, let's assume Caiaphas (High Priest of the Jewish Sanhedrin) was instrumental in snuffing Jesus.

This raises a philosophical point: Is Caiaphas in Hell (providing Hell exists) ?

The answer to that is simple: Of course, the Religious would say YES.

But, by far the more interesting question would then be raised: WHY ?????

Didn't GOD THE OMNISCIENT KNOW BEFORE HE CREATED Caiaphas (whether Caiaphas has free will or not) that Caiaphas would bump off Jesus ?

Why punish Caiaphas (whom God created) for something the Omniscient God KNEW would happen ....... whether Caiaphas had free will, or not ??????

Would YOU punish someone for what YOU created......knowing it will happen when YOU created it ?????

Philosophers: FRONT & CENTER !!!!!!

 

[kyzr]

Look at the options, if the prophesies needed to be fulfilled it all had to happen exactly as it did as documented by the atheist Romans. Pilot washed his hand having found no fault with Jesus, the crowd chose to free Barabbas instead of Jesus. Its all predestined, and it happens all the time in zillions of alternate dimensions and universes. So don't strain your brain, just enjoy the ride.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Please note: this is a follow thru on Glenn Beck's POLITICAL presentation on Jews having killed Jesus.

Whether Wikipedia's narrative is correct or not, let's assume Caiaphas (High Priest of the Jewish Sanhedrin) was instrumental in snuffing Jesus.

This raises a philosophical point: Is Caiaphas in Hell (providing Hell exists) ?

The answer to that is simple: Of course, the Religious would say YES.

But, by far the more interesting question would then be raised: WHY ?????

Didn't GOD THE OMNISCIENT KNOW BEFORE HE CREATED Caiaphas (whether Caiaphas has free will or not) that Caiaphas would bump off Jesus ?

Why punish Caiaphas (whom God created) for something the Omniscient God KNEW would happen ....... whether Caiaphas had free will, or not ??????

Would YOU punish someone for what YOU created......knowing it will happen when YOU created it ?????

Philosophers: FRONT & CENTER !!!!!!

If you REALLY want to be a philosopher, there is no burning hell at all. When one dies they "sleep" as per the Bible in several passages. No one that has died has gone to either Hell or heaven. Again according to the bible that journey will only occur on Judgement Day when all those that have died are Resurrected and then Judged.

And then only a chosen 144000 will ascend as spirit beings to Heaven. The rest will remain on a restored Earth with Jesus as their King , where no sickness or disease or death will occur again.

There are conflicting passages in the bible about a fiery pit. I happen to believe that none will exist. Those condemned to permanent death will simple be returned to the grave. Satan and his Angel followers will also be put to permanent death.

As for whether the Jews that chose to murder Jesus will be condemned to permanent death and the argument that God knew they would do it, One has free will. God neither forces nor coerces anyone to do anything. Predestined doesn't exist. Their Judgement will be made with that knowledge.

 

[gautama]

Look at the options, if the prophesies needed to be fulfilled it all had to happen exactly as it did as documented by the atheist Romans. Pilot washed his hand having found no fault with Jesus, the crowd chose to free Barabbas instead of Jesus. Its all predestined, and it happens all the time in zillions of alternate dimensions and universes. So don't strain your brain, just enjoy the ride.

Kyzr and Gunny, you are BOTH dodging the question in your own different ways.

If God (being Omniscient) creating Caiaphas, KNEW ahead of time that Caiaphas (whether he has free will or not) would be instrumental in snuffing out Jesus.......WHY WOULD GOD PUNISH CAIAPHAS WHOM GOD KNEW AHEAD OF TIME WOULD PERPETRATE THAT ACT??????

Would YOU punish someone (whether he has free will or not) when
YOU KNEW that by creating him ( and knowing ahead of time what will happen) that he would perperate the heinous act......PUNISH THE PERSON YOU CREATED WITH THAT FOREKNOWLEDGE ?????

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Look at the options, if the prophesies needed to be fulfilled it all had to happen exactly as it did as documented by the atheist Romans. Pilot washed his hand having found no fault with Jesus, the crowd chose to free Barabbas instead of Jesus. Its all predestined, and it happens all the time in zillions of alternate dimensions and universes. So don't strain your brain, just enjoy the ride.

Kyzr and Gunny, you are BOTH dodging the question in your own different ways.

If God (being Omniscient) creating Caiaphas, KNEW ahead of time that Caiaphas (whether he has free will or not) would be instrumental in snuffing out Jesus.......WHY WOULD GOD PUNISH CAIAPHAS WHOM GOD KNEW AHEAD OF TIME WOULD PERPETRATE THAT ACT??????

Would YOU punish someone (whether he has free will or not) when
YOU KNEW that by creating him ( and knowing ahead of time what will happen) that he would perperate the heinous act......PUNISH THE PERSON YOU CREATED WITH THAT FOREKNOWLEDGE ?????

And I REPEAT, no one is predestined to do ANYTHING. If we were there would be no free will.

 

[kyzr]

Look at the options, if the prophesies needed to be fulfilled it all had to happen exactly as it did as documented by the atheist Romans. Pilot washed his hand having found no fault with Jesus, the crowd chose to free Barabbas instead of Jesus. Its all predestined, and it happens all the time in zillions of alternate dimensions and universes. So don't strain your brain, just enjoy the ride.

Kyzr and Gunny, you are BOTH dodging the question in your own different ways.

If God (being Omniscient) creating Caiaphas, KNEW ahead of time that Caiaphas (whether he has free will or not) would be instrumental in snuffing out Jesus.......WHY WOULD GOD PUNISH CAIAPHAS WHOM GOD KNEW AHEAD OF TIME WOULD PERPETRATE THAT ACT??????

Would YOU punish someone (whether he has free will or not) when
YOU KNEW that by creating him ( and knowing ahead of time what will happen) that he would perperate the heinous act......PUNISH THE PERSON YOU CREATED WITH THAT FOREKNOWLEDGE ?????

Caiaphas was a pompous asshole. Look at Cartaphilas, who was cursed to walk the earth until the second coming<legend has it>. Sometimes God has a temper. As for your follow-up questions:
1. how do you know God punished Mr. C? How was he punished?
2. If you know that by creating children that they would occasionally need to be punished would you still create them? Why / why not?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Please note: this is a follow thru on Glenn Beck's POLITICAL presentation on Jews having killed Jesus.

Whether Wikipedia's narrative is correct or not, let's assume Caiaphas (High Priest of the Jewish Sanhedrin) was instrumental in snuffing Jesus.

This raises a philosophical point: Is Caiaphas in Hell (providing Hell exists) ?

The answer to that is simple: Of course, the Religious would say YES.

But, by far the more interesting question would then be raised: WHY ?????

Didn't GOD THE OMNISCIENT KNOW BEFORE HE CREATED Caiaphas (whether Caiaphas has free will or not) that Caiaphas would bump off Jesus ?

Why punish Caiaphas (whom God created) for something the Omniscient God KNEW would happen ....... whether Caiaphas had free will, or not ??????

Would YOU punish someone for what YOU created......knowing it will happen when YOU created it ?????

Philosophers: FRONT & CENTER !!!!!!

It all depends on one fact did Caiaphas ask for forgiveness and repent of his act against Christ. Just as with Judas if he had repented instead of hanging himself even he would have been allowed in Heaven

 

[sparky]

methinks Judas should be called to the witness stand......>


the Gospel of Judas appears to interpret Judas's act not as betrayal, but rather as an act of obedience to the instructions of Jesus. This assumption is taken on the basis that Jesus required a second agent to set in motion a course of events which he had planned. In that sense Judas acted as a catalyst. The action of Judas, then, was a pivotal point which interconnected a series of simultaneous pre-orchestrated events.

Gospel of Judas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[bigrebnc1775]

methinks Judas should be called to the witness stand......>


the Gospel of Judas appears to interpret Judas's act not as betrayal, but rather as an act of obedience to the instructions of Jesus. This assumption is taken on the basis that Jesus required a second agent to set in motion a course of events which he had planned. In that sense Judas acted as a catalyst. The action of Judas, then, was a pivotal point which interconnected a series of simultaneous pre-orchestrated events.

Gospel of Judas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gospel of Judas?
Where is the gospel of Judas mentioned?
New Testament Books Index

 

[gautama]

Look at the options, if the prophesies needed to be fulfilled it all had to happen exactly as it did as documented by the atheist Romans. Pilot washed his hand having found no fault with Jesus, the crowd chose to free Barabbas instead of Jesus. Its all predestined, and it happens all the time in zillions of alternate dimensions and universes. So don't strain your brain, just enjoy the ride.

Kyzr and Gunny, you are BOTH dodging the question in your own different ways.

If God (being Omniscient) creating Caiaphas, KNEW ahead of time that Caiaphas (whether he has free will or not) would be instrumental in snuffing out Jesus.......WHY WOULD GOD PUNISH CAIAPHAS WHOM GOD KNEW AHEAD OF TIME WOULD PERPETRATE THAT ACT??????

Would YOU punish someone (whether he has free will or not) when
YOU KNEW that by creating him ( and knowing ahead of time what will happen) that he would perperate the heinous act......PUNISH THE PERSON YOU CREATED WITH THAT FOREKNOWLEDGE ?????

And I REPEAT, no one is predestined to do ANYTHING. If we were there would be no free will.

Gunny,

Point One: "REPEATING" something, ipso facto, doesn't make what you "REPEAT" true. Surely you know that.

Point Two: AGAIN, you are either DODGING the issue, or MISSING THE POINT.

First, you do not KNOW that "no one is predestined to do ANYTHING". Your religious dogma may state that, or you may BELIEVE that.......but whether you like it or not, or believe it or not....there are OTHER RELIGIONS with OTHER DOGMAS. As a philosopher, if you are truly one, you cannot ASSUME that your religion's dogma, or YOUR BELIEF is the UNIVERSAL TRUTH. Unless you can prove it. INDEPENDENT OF YOUR RELIANCE ON YOUR RELIGION'S DOGMA as the source for proof that another person is not willing to accept as the source of Truth.

I think most would agree that BY DEFINITION, if God exists......this God is OMNISCIENT, OMNIPOTENT and OMNIPRESENT. OK ?

Second, let's say, for the purposes of this discussion, that: Caiaphas has free will (which I never denied), i.e., God does NOT direct Caiaphas to do ANYTHING. And, in this particular case, let's say Caiaphas exercising his free will is NOT INSTRUMENTAL in snuffing out Jesus. QUESTION: Since God is OMNISCIENT, and being OMNISCIENT, by definition, HE (God) KNOWS EVERYTHING......WOULDN'T GOD KNOW (ahead of time) what Caiaphas using his free will will do ??????

The answer, if you believe that God is OMNISCIENT, is an OBVIOUS YES !!!

Having established that. Let's proceed to the NEXT point: by definition, GOD IS OMNIPOTENT. Therefor, according to MOST, if not ALL, Religious DOGMAS......God CREATED EVERYTHING. To wit, wouldn't you admit then that God CREATED Caiaphas (with or without his free will......and we chose Caiaphas had free will) ?

The answer would have to be YES (if you believed in your own definition of God).....Thus God created Caiaphas.

So.....what do we have established:

(1) God by being OMNIPOTENT created Caiaphas (with or without Free will.....and we agreed that Caiaphas had free will). Note: it is understood that God created EVERYTHING including Caiaphas didn't he ? Otherwise GOD WOULD NOT BE OMNIPOTENT....now would he ?

2) God being OMNISCIENT knew ahead of time what Caiaphas would do (or not do) using his free will. Note: if God would NOT know ahead of time what his creation (i.e. Caiaphas) would do in the future GOD WOULD NOT BE OMNISCIENT.....now would he ???

So, now I put it to you:

WHY WOULD GOD PUNISH (OR NOT PUNISH) CAIAPHAS FOR WHAT CAIAPHAS WOULD DO IN THE FUTURE......IF GOD KNEW AHEAD OF TIME WHAT CAIPHAS WOULD DO, OR NOT DO ????

HISTORICALLY, IT IS A FACT THAT CAIAPHAS (using his free will or not) WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN SNUFFING OUT JESUS.

FACT: Most Religions would have the person committing a heinous act ULTIMATELY get punished.

So.....ULTIMATELY Caiaphas, if you believe that God of the Organized Religions exists, Caiaphas will have gotten punished, or will be punished. UNLESS according to some Religious Dogmas, he may recant with, or without, stuffing himself with a wafer, and a gulp of vino.......BUT!!!!!

Let's say Caiaphas did NOT recant......which HISTORICALLY Caiaphas didn't. Or taking some similar scenario that evil person did NOT recant....like Judas (for instance)......

THEN.........according to most Religious Dogmas GOD WOULD PUNISH THE HEINOUS MISCREANT !!!!!

THUS, I AGAIN POSE MY ORIGINALLY UNANSWERED, BUT INCESSANTLY DODGED QUESTION:

WHY WOULD GOD PUNISH SOMEONE WHOM HE (God) CREATED KNOWING FULL WELL, AHEAD OF TIME, WHAT HIS CREATION WOULD DO ????

Would YOU punish someone for doing something that YOU yourself created.......knowing ahead of time.....that this person YOU created would do it ????

KYZR: What I stated to Gunny applies EQUALLY and EXACTLY to you since you again DODGED my question with irrelevancies that EVADED my question.....but in a different way.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Kyzr and Gunny, you are BOTH dodging the question in your own different ways.

If God (being Omniscient) creating Caiaphas, KNEW ahead of time that Caiaphas (whether he has free will or not) would be instrumental in snuffing out Jesus.......WHY WOULD GOD PUNISH CAIAPHAS WHOM GOD KNEW AHEAD OF TIME WOULD PERPETRATE THAT ACT??????

Would YOU punish someone (whether he has free will or not) when
YOU KNEW that by creating him ( and knowing ahead of time what will happen) that he would perperate the heinous act......PUNISH THE PERSON YOU CREATED WITH THAT FOREKNOWLEDGE ?????

And I REPEAT, no one is predestined to do ANYTHING. If we were there would be no free will.

Gunny,

Point One: "REPEATING" something, ipso facto, doesn't make what you "REPEAT" true. Surely you know that.

Point Two: AGAIN, you are either DODGING the issue, or MISSING THE POINT.

First, you do not KNOW that "no one is predestined to do ANYTHING". Your religious dogma may state that, or you may BELIEVE that.......but whether you like it or not, or believe it or not....there are OTHER RELIGIONS with OTHER DOGMAS. As a philosopher, if you are truly one, you cannot ASSUME that your religion's dogma, or YOUR BELIEF is the UNIVERSAL TRUTH. Unless you can prove it. INDEPENDENT OF YOUR RELIANCE ON YOUR RELIGION'S DOGMA as the source for proof that another person is not willing to accept as the source of Truth.

I think most would agree that BY DEFINITION, if God exists......this God is OMNISCIENT, OMNIPOTENT and OMNIPRESENT. OK ?

Second, let's say, for the purposes of this discussion, that: Caiaphas has free will (which I never denied), i.e., God does NOT direct Caiaphas to do ANYTHING. And, in this particular case, let's say Caiaphas exercising his free will is NOT INSTRUMENTAL in snuffing out Jesus. QUESTION: Since God is OMNISCIENT, and being OMNISCIENT, by definition, HE (God) KNOWS EVERYTHING......WOULDN'T GOD KNOW (ahead of time) what Caiaphas using his free will will do ??????

The answer, if you believe that God is OMNISCIENT, is an OBVIOUS YES !!!

Having established that. Let's proceed to the NEXT point: by definition, GOD IS OMNIPOTENT. Therefor, according to MOST, if not ALL, Religious DOGMAS......God CREATED EVERYTHING. To wit, wouldn't you admit then that God CREATED Caiaphas (with or without his free will......and we chose Caiaphas had free will) ?

The answer would have to be YES (if you believed in your own definition of God).....Thus God created Caiaphas.

So.....what do we have established:

(1) God by being OMNIPOTENT created Caiaphas (with or without Free will.....and we agreed that Caiaphas had free will). Note: it is understood that God created EVERYTHING including Caiaphas didn't he ? Otherwise GOD WOULD NOT BE OMNIPOTENT....now would he ?

2) God being OMNISCIENT knew ahead of time what Caiaphas would do (or not do) using his free will. Note: if God would NOT know ahead of time what his creation (i.e. Caiaphas) would do in the future GOD WOULD NOT BE OMNISCIENT.....now would he ???

So, now I put it to you:

WHY WOULD GOD PUNISH (OR NOT PUNISH) CAIAPHAS FOR WHAT CAIAPHAS WOULD DO IN THE FUTURE......IF GOD KNEW AHEAD OF TIME WHAT CAIPHAS WOULD DO, OR NOT DO ????

HISTORICALLY, IT IS A FACT THAT CAIAPHAS (using his free will or not) WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN SNUFFING OUT JESUS.

FACT: Most Religions would have the person committing a heinous act ULTIMATELY get punished.

So.....ULTIMATELY Caiaphas, if you believe that God of the Organized Religions exists, Caiaphas will have gotten punished, or will be punished. UNLESS according to some Religious Dogmas, he may recant with, or without, stuffing himself with a wafer, and a gulp of vino.......BUT!!!!!

Let's say Caiaphas did NOT recant......which HISTORICALLY Caiaphas didn't. Or taking some similar scenario that evil person did NOT recant....like Judas (for instance)......

THEN.........according to most Religious Dogmas GOD WOULD PUNISH THE HEINOUS MISCREANT !!!!!

THUS, I AGAIN POSE MY ORIGINALLY UNANSWERED, BUT INCESSANTLY DODGED QUESTION:

WHY WOULD GOD PUNISH SOMEONE WHOM HE (God) CREATED KNOWING FULL WELL, AHEAD OF TIME, WHAT HIS CREATION WOULD DO ????

Would YOU punish someone for doing something that YOU yourself created.......knowing ahead of time.....that this person YOU created would do it ????

KYZR: What I stated to Gunny applies EQUALLY and EXACTLY to you since you again DODGED my question with irrelevancies that EVADED my question.....but in a different way.

OK let's not forget one thing that no one but me has mention FORGIVENESS and did he REPENT. Did Caiaphas ask for forgiveness?

 

[gautama]

Please note: this is a follow thru on Glenn Beck's POLITICAL presentation on Jews having killed Jesus.

Whether Wikipedia's narrative is correct or not, let's assume Caiaphas (High Priest of the Jewish Sanhedrin) was instrumental in snuffing Jesus.

This raises a philosophical point: Is Caiaphas in Hell (providing Hell exists) ?

The answer to that is simple: Of course, the Religious would say YES.

But, by far the more interesting question would then be raised: WHY ?????

Didn't GOD THE OMNISCIENT KNOW BEFORE HE CREATED Caiaphas (whether Caiaphas has free will or not) that Caiaphas would bump off Jesus ?

Why punish Caiaphas (whom God created) for something the Omniscient God KNEW would happen ....... whether Caiaphas had free will, or not ??????

Would YOU punish someone for what YOU created......knowing it will happen when YOU created it ?????

Philosophers: FRONT & CENTER !!!!!!

It all depends on one fact did Caiaphas ask for forgiveness and repent of his act against Christ. Just as with Judas if he had repented instead of hanging himself even he would have been allowed in Heaven

bigrebnc,

You are DODGING the questions I posed. Or, you are missing the point.

I suggest you read my post to Gunny.

In answer to your statement which sidesteps my question: My questions pertain to cases like Judas's or Caiaphas's or zillions of OTHER scenarios like that.

 

[gautama]

methinks Judas should be called to the witness stand......>


the Gospel of Judas appears to interpret Judas's act not as betrayal, but rather as an act of obedience to the instructions of Jesus. This assumption is taken on the basis that Jesus required a second agent to set in motion a course of events which he had planned. In that sense Judas acted as a catalyst. The action of Judas, then, was a pivotal point which interconnected a series of simultaneous pre-orchestrated events.

Gospel of Judas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sparky,

Like the others, you are either DODGING my questions. Or, you are MISSING THE POINT.

Please read my post to Gunny. It's not that difficult to understand if you happen to be a philosopher.

 

[editec]

Please note: this is a follow thru on Glenn Beck's POLITICAL presentation on Jews having killed Jesus.

Whether Wikipedia's narrative is correct or not, let's assume Caiaphas (High Priest of the Jewish Sanhedrin) was instrumental in snuffing Jesus.

This raises a philosophical point: Is Caiaphas in Hell (providing Hell exists) ?

The answer to that is simple: Of course, the Religious would say YES.

But, by far the more interesting question would then be raised: WHY ?????

Didn't GOD THE OMNISCIENT KNOW BEFORE HE CREATED Caiaphas (whether Caiaphas has free will or not) that Caiaphas would bump off Jesus ?

Why punish Caiaphas (whom God created) for something the Omniscient God KNEW would happen ....... whether Caiaphas had free will, or not ??????

Would YOU punish someone for what YOU created......knowing it will happen when YOU created it ?????

Philosophers: FRONT & CENTER !!!!!!

This isn't philosophy (the love of knowledge), this is an invitation to debate theology (the love of God).

The two are not at ALL the same thing. There isn't enough common ground between them to even have rational discourse.

Philosophy starts from the premise of asking what CAN be known?

Theology starts from the premise of demanding that one accept the UNKNOWABLE though faith.

 

[gautama]

And I REPEAT, no one is predestined to do ANYTHING. If we were there would be no free will.

Gunny,

Point One: "REPEATING" something, ipso facto, doesn't make what you "REPEAT" true. Surely you know that.

Point Two: AGAIN, you are either DODGING the issue, or MISSING THE POINT.

First, you do not KNOW that "no one is predestined to do ANYTHING". Your religious dogma may state that, or you may BELIEVE that.......but whether you like it or not, or believe it or not....there are OTHER RELIGIONS with OTHER DOGMAS. As a philosopher, if you are truly one, you cannot ASSUME that your religion's dogma, or YOUR BELIEF is the UNIVERSAL TRUTH. Unless you can prove it. INDEPENDENT OF YOUR RELIANCE ON YOUR RELIGION'S DOGMA as the source for proof that another person is not willing to accept as the source of Truth.

I think most would agree that BY DEFINITION, if God exists......this God is OMNISCIENT, OMNIPOTENT and OMNIPRESENT. OK ?

Second, let's say, for the purposes of this discussion, that: Caiaphas has free will (which I never denied), i.e., God does NOT direct Caiaphas to do ANYTHING. And, in this particular case, let's say Caiaphas exercising his free will is NOT INSTRUMENTAL in snuffing out Jesus. QUESTION: Since God is OMNISCIENT, and being OMNISCIENT, by definition, HE (God) KNOWS EVERYTHING......WOULDN'T GOD KNOW (ahead of time) what Caiaphas using his free will will do ??????

The answer, if you believe that God is OMNISCIENT, is an OBVIOUS YES !!!

Having established that. Let's proceed to the NEXT point: by definition, GOD IS OMNIPOTENT. Therefor, according to MOST, if not ALL, Religious DOGMAS......God CREATED EVERYTHING. To wit, wouldn't you admit then that God CREATED Caiaphas (with or without his free will......and we chose Caiaphas had free will) ?

The answer would have to be YES (if you believed in your own definition of God).....Thus God created Caiaphas.

So.....what do we have established:

(1) God by being OMNIPOTENT created Caiaphas (with or without Free will.....and we agreed that Caiaphas had free will). Note: it is understood that God created EVERYTHING including Caiaphas didn't he ? Otherwise GOD WOULD NOT BE OMNIPOTENT....now would he ?

2) God being OMNISCIENT knew ahead of time what Caiaphas would do (or not do) using his free will. Note: if God would NOT know ahead of time what his creation (i.e. Caiaphas) would do in the future GOD WOULD NOT BE OMNISCIENT.....now would he ???

So, now I put it to you:

WHY WOULD GOD PUNISH (OR NOT PUNISH) CAIAPHAS FOR WHAT CAIAPHAS WOULD DO IN THE FUTURE......IF GOD KNEW AHEAD OF TIME WHAT CAIPHAS WOULD DO, OR NOT DO ????

HISTORICALLY, IT IS A FACT THAT CAIAPHAS (using his free will or not) WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN SNUFFING OUT JESUS.

FACT: Most Religions would have the person committing a heinous act ULTIMATELY get punished.

So.....ULTIMATELY Caiaphas, if you believe that God of the Organized Religions exists, Caiaphas will have gotten punished, or will be punished. UNLESS according to some Religious Dogmas, he may recant with, or without, stuffing himself with a wafer, and a gulp of vino.......BUT!!!!!

Let's say Caiaphas did NOT recant......which HISTORICALLY Caiaphas didn't. Or taking some similar scenario that evil person did NOT recant....like Judas (for instance)......

THEN.........according to most Religious Dogmas GOD WOULD PUNISH THE HEINOUS MISCREANT !!!!!

THUS, I AGAIN POSE MY ORIGINALLY UNANSWERED, BUT INCESSANTLY DODGED QUESTION:

WHY WOULD GOD PUNISH SOMEONE WHOM HE (God) CREATED KNOWING FULL WELL, AHEAD OF TIME, WHAT HIS CREATION WOULD DO ????

Would YOU punish someone for doing something that YOU yourself created.......knowing ahead of time.....that this person YOU created would do it ????

KYZR: What I stated to Gunny applies EQUALLY and EXACTLY to you since you again DODGED my question with irrelevancies that EVADED my question.....but in a different way.

OK let's not forget one thing that no one but me has mention FORGIVENESS and did he REPENT. Did Caiaphas ask for forgiveness?

bigrebnc,

YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT !!!!!

You are mired down in your own Religious Dogma.

FORGIVENESS does not have anything to do with MY post.

You may make it an issue.......but that is YOUR separate and irelevant issue to MY ISSUE.

But, just for the record: Caiaphas did NOT recant.....according to the sources I know.

If you want to answer MY questions please READ MY LENGTHY POST TO GUNNY.

BTW, naturally you are free to open up RELATED issues. BUT THEY ARE NOT RELEVANT TO MY STATED ONE.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Gunny,

Point One: "REPEATING" something, ipso facto, doesn't make what you "REPEAT" true. Surely you know that.

Point Two: AGAIN, you are either DODGING the issue, or MISSING THE POINT.

First, you do not KNOW that "no one is predestined to do ANYTHING". Your religious dogma may state that, or you may BELIEVE that.......but whether you like it or not, or believe it or not....there are OTHER RELIGIONS with OTHER DOGMAS. As a philosopher, if you are truly one, you cannot ASSUME that your religion's dogma, or YOUR BELIEF is the UNIVERSAL TRUTH. Unless you can prove it. INDEPENDENT OF YOUR RELIANCE ON YOUR RELIGION'S DOGMA as the source for proof that another person is not willing to accept as the source of Truth.

I think most would agree that BY DEFINITION, if God exists......this God is OMNISCIENT, OMNIPOTENT and OMNIPRESENT. OK ?

Second, let's say, for the purposes of this discussion, that: Caiaphas has free will (which I never denied), i.e., God does NOT direct Caiaphas to do ANYTHING. And, in this particular case, let's say Caiaphas exercising his free will is NOT INSTRUMENTAL in snuffing out Jesus. QUESTION: Since God is OMNISCIENT, and being OMNISCIENT, by definition, HE (God) KNOWS EVERYTHING......WOULDN'T GOD KNOW (ahead of time) what Caiaphas using his free will will do ??????

The answer, if you believe that God is OMNISCIENT, is an OBVIOUS YES !!!

Having established that. Let's proceed to the NEXT point: by definition, GOD IS OMNIPOTENT. Therefor, according to MOST, if not ALL, Religious DOGMAS......God CREATED EVERYTHING. To wit, wouldn't you admit then that God CREATED Caiaphas (with or without his free will......and we chose Caiaphas had free will) ?

The answer would have to be YES (if you believed in your own definition of God).....Thus God created Caiaphas.

So.....what do we have established:

(1) God by being OMNIPOTENT created Caiaphas (with or without Free will.....and we agreed that Caiaphas had free will). Note: it is understood that God created EVERYTHING including Caiaphas didn't he ? Otherwise GOD WOULD NOT BE OMNIPOTENT....now would he ?

2) God being OMNISCIENT knew ahead of time what Caiaphas would do (or not do) using his free will. Note: if God would NOT know ahead of time what his creation (i.e. Caiaphas) would do in the future GOD WOULD NOT BE OMNISCIENT.....now would he ???

So, now I put it to you:

WHY WOULD GOD PUNISH (OR NOT PUNISH) CAIAPHAS FOR WHAT CAIAPHAS WOULD DO IN THE FUTURE......IF GOD KNEW AHEAD OF TIME WHAT CAIPHAS WOULD DO, OR NOT DO ????

HISTORICALLY, IT IS A FACT THAT CAIAPHAS (using his free will or not) WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN SNUFFING OUT JESUS.

FACT: Most Religions would have the person committing a heinous act ULTIMATELY get punished.

So.....ULTIMATELY Caiaphas, if you believe that God of the Organized Religions exists, Caiaphas will have gotten punished, or will be punished. UNLESS according to some Religious Dogmas, he may recant with, or without, stuffing himself with a wafer, and a gulp of vino.......BUT!!!!!

Let's say Caiaphas did NOT recant......which HISTORICALLY Caiaphas didn't. Or taking some similar scenario that evil person did NOT recant....like Judas (for instance)......

THEN.........according to most Religious Dogmas GOD WOULD PUNISH THE HEINOUS MISCREANT !!!!!

THUS, I AGAIN POSE MY ORIGINALLY UNANSWERED, BUT INCESSANTLY DODGED QUESTION:

WHY WOULD GOD PUNISH SOMEONE WHOM HE (God) CREATED KNOWING FULL WELL, AHEAD OF TIME, WHAT HIS CREATION WOULD DO ????

Would YOU punish someone for doing something that YOU yourself created.......knowing ahead of time.....that this person YOU created would do it ????

KYZR: What I stated to Gunny applies EQUALLY and EXACTLY to you since you again DODGED my question with irrelevancies that EVADED my question.....but in a different way.

OK let's not forget one thing that no one but me has mention FORGIVENESS and did he REPENT. Did Caiaphas ask for forgiveness?

bigrebnc,

YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT !!!!!

You are mired down in your own Religious Dogma.

FORGIVENESS does not have anything to do with MY post.

You may make it an issue.......but that is YOUR separate and irelevant issue to MY ISSUE.

But, just for the record: Caiaphas did NOT recant.....according to the sources I know.

If you want to answer M questions please READ MY LENGTHY POST TO GUNNY.

BTW, naturally you are free to open up RELATED issues. BUT THEY ARE NOT RELEVANT TO MY STATED ONE.

Forgiveness hass everything to do with God. Even Hitler and all that he did had ask for forgiveness for his sins before he died and had not killed himself would be in Heaven today. But only God can be the judge of that. Forgiveness and repentence is the key as to who does and doesn't go to Heaven

 

[gautama]

Please note: this is a follow thru on Glenn Beck's POLITICAL presentation on Jews having killed Jesus.

Whether Wikipedia's narrative is correct or not, let's assume Caiaphas (High Priest of the Jewish Sanhedrin) was instrumental in snuffing Jesus.

This raises a philosophical point: Is Caiaphas in Hell (providing Hell exists) ?

The answer to that is simple: Of course, the Religious would say YES.

But, by far the more interesting question would then be raised: WHY ?????

Didn't GOD THE OMNISCIENT KNOW BEFORE HE CREATED Caiaphas (whether Caiaphas has free will or not) that Caiaphas would bump off Jesus ?

Why punish Caiaphas (whom God created) for something the Omniscient God KNEW would happen ....... whether Caiaphas had free will, or not ??????

Would YOU punish someone for what YOU created......knowing it will happen when YOU created it ?????

Philosophers: FRONT & CENTER !!!!!!

This isn't philosophy (the love of knowledge), this is an invitation to debate theology (the love of God).

The two are not at ALL the same thing. There isn't enough common ground between them to even have rational discourse.

Philosophy starts from the premise of asking what CAN be known?

Theology starts from the premise of demanding that one accept the UNKNOWABLE though faith.

Editec,

You are correct as to the differentiation of premises.

Whether my OP is classified as strictly Philosophy or Theology....or a mixture of the two.......the choice is yours.

But, you are completely wrong on one point.

I raised some questions. If you are able to answer them .... do so.

If you are not able to.......obviously, you can hide behind your labeling them as irrational.

And, that is your prerogative.

But as far as I'm concerned, you are either not mentally qualified. Or, you simply want to dodge the issue because your rationalizations would spell your defeat of longheld religious views that cannot stand rigorous scrutiny.

My bet is the second option.

 

[gautama]

OK let's not forget one thing that no one but me has mention FORGIVENESS and did he REPENT. Did Caiaphas ask for forgiveness?

bigrebnc,

YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT !!!!!

You are mired down in your own Religious Dogma.

FORGIVENESS does not have anything to do with MY post.

You may make it an issue.......but that is YOUR separate and irelevant issue to MY ISSUE.

But, just for the record: Caiaphas did NOT recant.....according to the sources I know.

If you want to answer M questions please READ MY LENGTHY POST TO GUNNY.

BTW, naturally you are free to open up RELATED issues. BUT THEY ARE NOT RELEVANT TO MY STATED ONE.

Forgiveness hass everything to do with God. Even Hitler and all that he did had ask for forgiveness for his sins before he died and had not killed himself would be in Heaven today. But only God can be the judge of that. Forgiveness and repentence is the key as to who does and doesn't go to Heaven

bigrepnc,

I won't agree or disagree with you because my hands are full with MY issue........which you are STILL DODGING.....or NOT UNDERSTANDING.

Later, when I have time I may respond to your SEPARATE ISSUE that COMPLETELY MISSES THE POINTS I AM RAISING.

 

[gautama]

methinks Judas should be called to the witness stand......>


the Gospel of Judas appears to interpret Judas's act not as betrayal, but rather as an act of obedience to the instructions of Jesus. This assumption is taken on the basis that Jesus required a second agent to set in motion a course of events which he had planned. In that sense Judas acted as a catalyst. The action of Judas, then, was a pivotal point which interconnected a series of simultaneous pre-orchestrated events.

Gospel of Judas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gospel of Judas?
Where is the gospel of Judas mentioned?
New Testament Books Index

bigrebnc,

Sorry, but we are nowhere near being on the same page.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

bigrebnc,

YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT !!!!!

You are mired down in your own Religious Dogma.

FORGIVENESS does not have anything to do with MY post.

You may make it an issue.......but that is YOUR separate and irelevant issue to MY ISSUE.

But, just for the record: Caiaphas did NOT recant.....according to the sources I know.

If you want to answer M questions please READ MY LENGTHY POST TO GUNNY.

BTW, naturally you are free to open up RELATED issues. BUT THEY ARE NOT RELEVANT TO MY STATED ONE.

Forgiveness hass everything to do with God. Even Hitler and all that he did had ask for forgiveness for his sins before he died and had not killed himself would be in Heaven today. But only God can be the judge of that. Forgiveness and repentence is the key as to who does and doesn't go to Heaven

bigrepnc,

I won't agree or disagree with you because my hands are full with MY issue........which you are STILL DODGING.....or NOT UNDERSTANDING.

Later, when I have time I may respond to your SEPARATE ISSUE that COMPLETELY MISSES THE POINTS I AM RAISING.

Correct me if I am wrong.
The point that you are trying to make is, that if God used Caiaphas do have Jesus killed why would God have him sent to hell if he had done Gods will.
Is this correct?