Let's Repeal Obamacare and Try Freedom re Healthcare and Most Other Things Too

[RDD_1210]

Everyone does get health care in the US, regardless of your ability to pay.

Link?

 

[Revere]

It's against the law not to treat someone in an ER.

 

[RDD_1210]

It's against the law not to treat someone in an ER.

Which ER's provide Chemo therapy?

 

[Steerpike]

I'm aware that it doesn't have any legal effect, but the fact that "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" are considered to be the foundation of what our country is founded upon and inalienable rights we all share makes me think that access to basic healthcare is something that our founders very much would have wanted. They did not want the creation of a society of Haves and Have-nots, especially when it comes to the inalienable rights we are all suppose to have.

Well...health care existed back then. It wasn't as advanced as now, but they had it. The Founders did not see fit to recognize it as a right, so I think that's a pretty good indication of whether they wanted it seen as one. By and large, the Founders didn't seem interested in recognizing anyone's right to be given something by government or by another. They were interested more in being free from restriction. Look at the Bill of Rights. They are primarily set up to limit government and make sure government can't interfere with citizens, not to grant something of value to the citizen. You get a jury trial, which is one thing the government had to guarantee, but no I don't think the Founders would have been on-board with the idea of health care being a right at all. If they had, they could easily have recognized it as such.

 

[Revere]

It's against the law not to treat someone in an ER.

Which ER's provide Chemo therapy?

Which government programs give you all the chemo you want?

 

[Common Sense]

It's against the law not to treat someone in an ER.

treat and provide care are 2 different things.

you can treat a broken arm with a splint and some pain meds. or you can provide care and actually set the arm and cast it. both have two totally different costs.

 

[Revere]

You are obligated to stabilize someone who comes to an ER.

I heard a bum send the help out for a sandwich in the ER the other day.

He was a regular.

 

[Foxfyre]

But still, what our country was founded upon. No?

Sure, they stated some principles on which we were founded. But the Constitution is the supreme law. The Declaration doesn't have any legal effect in terms of recognizing rights, and it never has, even when the Founders were still alive. Justices have used it from time to time to figure out what the Founders meant, but it doesn't take much looking back to see that the Founders who wrote the Declaration and Constitution did not consider health care to be a right.

I'm aware that it doesn't have any legal effect, but the fact that "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" are considered to be the foundation of what our country is founded upon and inalienable rights we all share makes me think that access to basic healthcare is something that our founders very much would have wanted. They did not want the creation of a society of Haves and Have-nots, especially when it comes to the inalienable rights we are all suppose to have.

If you look at history, ALL the founders rejected the idea of the federal government dispensing any form of charity from the public treasury. It was not that they did not favor or promote charity. They all did. But they knew, and they wrote, that the federal government should not ever have ability to use its powers or the public treasury to favor or benefit any individual or group over any other individual or group. They knew full well, as all thinking people should understand now, that once the federal government has power to curry favors with any special interest, no matter how needy, the republic begins to unravel in the inevitable graft and corruption that will be unleashed.

The Founders would certainly have favored a system in which healthcare was available to all just as they favored a system in which all people, regardless of class, would enjoy a measure ofprosperity and the benefits that it provides. They would to a man have rejected the federal government providing healthcare or any other necessities of life to any person for any reason as all the rest is at risk if our liberties and unalienable rights are not protected first.

 

[RDD_1210]

I'm aware that it doesn't have any legal effect, but the fact that "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" are considered to be the foundation of what our country is founded upon and inalienable rights we all share makes me think that access to basic healthcare is something that our founders very much would have wanted. They did not want the creation of a society of Haves and Have-nots, especially when it comes to the inalienable rights we are all suppose to have.

Well...health care existed back then. It wasn't as advanced as now, but they had it. The Founders did not see fit to recognize it as a right, so I think that's a pretty good indication of whether they wanted it seen as one. By and large, the Founders didn't seem interested in recognizing anyone's right to be given something by government or by another. They were interested more in being free from restriction. Look at the Bill of Rights. They are primarily set up to limit government and make sure government can't interfere with citizens, not to grant something of value to the citizen. You get a jury trial, which is one thing the government had to guarantee, but no I don't think the Founders would have been on-board with the idea of health care being a right at all. If they had, they could easily have recognized it as such.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree then. I think there are MANY things that are not rights, but being able to live a healthy life without the interference of a 3rd party (insurance companies) is a right we all should have.

 

[RDD_1210]

It's against the law not to treat someone in an ER.

Which ER's provide Chemo therapy?

Which government programs give you all the chemo you want?

Are you a fucking robot? Didn't we already go through this? You ignored this all before.

What private insurance company gives you all the chemo you want?

 

[Revere]

Private insurance is a contract you voluntarily enter into. There are covered and non-covered items.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Everyone does get health care in the US, regardless of your ability to pay.

Really? So all this talk about people in Arizona being denied transplants because they can't afford them is what?

...an urban legend??

 

[Steerpike]

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree then. I think there are MANY things that are not rights, but being able to live a healthy life without the interference of a 3rd party (insurance companies) is a right we all should have.

I think we should provide health care to everyone who needs it. I don't think it is a "right," but something doesn't have to be elevated to the level of a right for us to do it.

I don't like turning the whole healthcare system upside down to take care of the 15% or so who need it, but I do think we should ensure that everyone who needs health care has it.

 

[Revere]

I'm aware that it doesn't have any legal effect, but the fact that "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" are considered to be the foundation of what our country is founded upon and inalienable rights we all share makes me think that access to basic healthcare is something that our founders very much would have wanted. They did not want the creation of a society of Haves and Have-nots, especially when it comes to the inalienable rights we are all suppose to have.

Well...health care existed back then. It wasn't as advanced as now, but they had it. The Founders did not see fit to recognize it as a right, so I think that's a pretty good indication of whether they wanted it seen as one. By and large, the Founders didn't seem interested in recognizing anyone's right to be given something by government or by another. They were interested more in being free from restriction. Look at the Bill of Rights. They are primarily set up to limit government and make sure government can't interfere with citizens, not to grant something of value to the citizen. You get a jury trial, which is one thing the government had to guarantee, but no I don't think the Founders would have been on-board with the idea of health care being a right at all. If they had, they could easily have recognized it as such.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree then. I think there are MANY things that are not rights, but being able to live a healthy life without the interference of a 3rd party (insurance companies) is a right we all should have.

The US government is the biggest 3rd party insurer on the planet.

 

[Revere]

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree then. I think there are MANY things that are not rights, but being able to live a healthy life without the interference of a 3rd party (insurance companies) is a right we all should have.

I think we should provide health care to everyone who needs it. I don't think it is a "right," but something doesn't have to be elevated to the level of a right for us to do it.

I don't like turning the whole healthcare system upside down to take care of the 15% or so who need it, but I do think we should ensure that everyone who needs health care has it.

Correct. Obamacare is about disrupting everyone to take care of a handful of outliers.

 

[RDD_1210]

Private insurance is a contract you voluntarily enter into. There are covered and non-covered items.

Show me ANY that give you ALL the chemo you want. Just one.

I don't even understand the point you're even trying to make. You're beyond ridiculous.

 

[Foxfyre]

“When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.”
-Benjamin Franklin

“To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.”
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Joseph Milligan, April 6, 1816

“A wise and frugal government … shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.”
-Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1801

“Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.”
-Thomas Jefferson

“When all government, domestic and foreign, in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the center of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated.”
-Thomas Jefferson to Charles Hammond, 1821. The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, (Memorial Edition) Lipscomb and Bergh, editors, ME 15:332

“The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If ‘Thou shalt not covet’ and ‘Thou shalt not steal’ were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free.”
-John Adams, A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America, 1787

James Madison, the Father of the Constitution, elaborated upon this limitation in a letter to James Robertson:
“With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’ I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.”

“…[T]he government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specified objects. It is not like the state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government.”
-James Madison

“If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the general welfare, the government is no longer a limited one possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one subject to particular exceptions.” James Madison, “Letter to Edmund Pendleton,”
-James Madison, January 21, 1792, in The Papers of James Madison, vol. 14, Robert A Rutland et. al., ed (Charlottesvile: University Press of Virginia,1984).

“An elective despotism was not the government we fought for; but one in which the powers of government should be so divided and balanced among the several bodies of magistracy as that no one could transcend their legal limits without being effectually checked and restrained by the others.”
-James Madison, Federalist No. 58, February 20, 1788

 

[RDD_1210]

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree then. I think there are MANY things that are not rights, but being able to live a healthy life without the interference of a 3rd party (insurance companies) is a right we all should have.

I think we should provide health care to everyone who needs it. I don't think it is a "right," but something doesn't have to be elevated to the level of a right for us to do it.

I don't like turning the whole healthcare system upside down to take care of the 15% or so who need it, but I do think we should ensure that everyone who needs health care has it.

It goes well beyond the 15% who don't have any coverage. MANY with coverage are still being denied treatment they need or receiving less the adequate or timely coverage. There are flaws all over our healthcare system.

 

[Revere]

It's not perfect, but it works for most Americans.

The utopia you believe in will never exist.

 

[Revere]

Private insurance is a contract you voluntarily enter into. There are covered and non-covered items.

Show me ANY that give you ALL the chemo you want. Just one.

I don't even understand the point you're even trying to make. You're beyond ridiculous.

All the chemo your policy or contract spells out.

Don't you believe in private contracts?