CDZ : Let's debate, why did the democrats veto "Red Flag" laws for actual gun criminals, gang members?

[2aguy]

Mudwhistle posted this story today....and I want an answer from the Pro-Gun Control crowd here on U.S.messageboard....

If the democrats tell us they care about gun crime, and they think that "Red Flag" laws are the way to help reduce gun crime......why did they veto the use of "Red Flag" laws against actual, known, repeat gun offenders....gang members and other criminals? Instead, the only targets of "Red Flag" laws will be gun owners who have committed no crime, who will then have to prove they are not dangerous having to pay lots of money to do it.....violations of the 2nd Amendment, the 5th Amendment, and the 4th Amendment.....

So....I would like to know from those who support gun control, why did the democrats veto using "Red Flag" laws against known criminals?

From Mudwhistle's post.....

September 21, 2019
Dems Veto Red Flag Law for Gangbangers
By Daniel John Sobieski
If Democrats were serious about using red flag laws to keep guns out if the hands of people who might use them to senselessly murder others and therefore are danger to society, and not just as a gun-control tool to disarm law-abiding citizens, then why did they kill an attempt to use compiled lists of known gang members, which many police departments and law enforcement agencies possess? Why did they kill a measure to red flag gang members? And if Beto O’Rourke is going to come and take our guns, particularly our AR-15s, is he going to start on the south side of Chicago? As the Washington Examiner noted on September 14:

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

Democrats could not exist without their self-caused chaos.

 

[Old Man Grumbles]

As the article states, police are held to a higher standard in identifying an individual as a gang member than a petitioner to have a person declared a danger and his/her guns confiscated. I know this first hand from working in a gang unit in California.

So, at the minimum Democrats need to get off their chairs and - short of throwing out red flag laws - make the red flag laws as restrictive as anti-gang laws.

Will this happen? No, probably not.

 

[sartre play]

Just guessing, its a lot more danger too go after Mexican gangs and drug big shots than it is to pick on nonviolent illegals, or just bust the drug users .

 

[2aguy]

By the numbers...

Mass public shootings in 2018..... 12. Total killed .... 93.

Gun murder in General in 2017 the last year of FBI stats? 10,982.

The majority of the 10,982 victims are criminals murdered by other criminals......the shooters likely with repeat illegal gun offenses.

The democrats want to use the 93 killed in mass public shootings to pass Red Flag laws that target normal people.....yet, as Mudwhistle's thread pointed out, they want to exempt actual, known, violent gun criminals, the ones actually responsible for 10, 889 gun murders.

As this is a debate thread, let's debate why the democrats want to focus on gun owners without histories of any crime ..... and ignore the individuals who actually use guns for crime......repeatedly.

 

[Tijn Von Ingersleben]

Do gang members utilize legitimate gun dealers?
I would think not given their purposes for gun ownership.
I don't think the Red Flag laws would affect them.

 

[2aguy]

Do gang members utilize legitimate gun dealers?
I would think not given their purposes for gun ownership.
I don't think the Red Flag laws would affect them.

It doesn't matter...... they didn't vote down that provision because they didn't think it would work...since none of their other gun laws actually work either. Red Flag laws for known gang members would allow police to go to their homes, their baby momma homes, their mothers homes.....and search them for illegal guns.....the same way it would for law abiding gun owners who don't have a criminal record of gun crime of any kind.

 

[Tijn Von Ingersleben]

Do gang members utilize legitimate gun dealers?
I would think not given their purposes for gun ownership.
I don't think the Red Flag laws would affect them.

It doesn't matter...... they didn't vote down that provision because they didn't think it would work...since none of their other gun laws actually work either. Red Flag laws for known gang members would allow police to go to their homes, their baby momma homes, their mothers homes.....and search them for illegal guns.....the same way it would for law abiding gun owners who don't have a criminal record of gun crime of any kind.

What is stopping police from doing that now? Warrants are incredibly easy to acquire. This idea that the courts work to protect Fourth Amendment rights is complete horseshit.
The fact remains that Red Flag laws would prove to be useless against known gang affiliates.

 

[daveman]

The obvious answer is because they don't want to disarm criminals. They only want to disarm law-abiding people.

Why?

Because criminals won't resist leftist tyranny. They'll continue breaking the law just like usual, and not coincidentally providing stacks of bodies for Democrats to preach disarmament from.

 

[candycorn]

Do gang members utilize legitimate gun dealers?
I would think not given their purposes for gun ownership.
I don't think the Red Flag laws would affect them.

It wouldn’t.

What would affect them is if we passed a law to where all sales of guns would have to go through the same background check. Person A has a gun. Person B wants to buy the gun. They travel down to someone who is certified by the ATF (or whomever) to do the background check. The local tax office, court house, gun dealers, etc…. and the sale is contingent upon Person B passing a background check. Safe. Simple. Secure. Sane.

If no certified authority authorized the sale, the buyer and seller are both subject to being charged with commission of a crime.

It would make the dealers who sell to gang bangers think twice.

Would it stop someone who is probably already a criminal? No…they’re not buying from legitimate people to start with. Would it stop some of the gun flow from responsible owners to gang members? Yep.

 

[Jitss617]

We know why, democrats need people of color to murder people they hate

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

Do gang members utilize legitimate gun dealers?
I would think not given their purposes for gun ownership.
I don't think the Red Flag laws would affect them.

It wouldn’t.

What would affect them is if we passed a law to where all sales of guns would have to go through the same background check. Person A has a gun. Person B wants to buy the gun. They travel down to someone who is certified by the ATF (or whomever) to do the background check. The local tax office, court house, gun dealers, etc…. and the sale is contingent upon Person B passing a background check. Safe. Simple. Secure. Sane.

If no certified authority authorized the sale, the buyer and seller are both subject to being charged with commission of a crime.

It would make the dealers who sell to gang bangers think twice.

Would it stop someone who is probably already a criminal? No…they’re not buying from legitimate people to start with. Would it stop some of the gun flow from responsible owners to gang members? Yep.

It will not stop the straw purches buying or selling or the outright sale of a firearm to a gang member at all...

But

That is not the point of this thread and the point is why would your political party object to the usage of the list if it stop just one gun sale and save one life?

Your political party is all for government lists like the No-Fly list, so why not the gang bangers list?

Simple, it focuses on minorities directly and not white society and the Democrats are not going to support that at all.

Had the list focused on the average white man then Democrats would have passed the bill quickly and with smiles in their faces...

 

[2aguy]

Do gang members utilize legitimate gun dealers?
I would think not given their purposes for gun ownership.
I don't think the Red Flag laws would affect them.

It wouldn’t.

What would affect them is if we passed a law to where all sales of guns would have to go through the same background check. Person A has a gun. Person B wants to buy the gun. They travel down to someone who is certified by the ATF (or whomever) to do the background check. The local tax office, court house, gun dealers, etc…. and the sale is contingent upon Person B passing a background check. Safe. Simple. Secure. Sane.

If no certified authority authorized the sale, the buyer and seller are both subject to being charged with commission of a crime.

It would make the dealers who sell to gang bangers think twice.

Would it stop someone who is probably already a criminal? No…they’re not buying from legitimate people to start with. Would it stop some of the gun flow from responsible owners to gang members? Yep.

Gun dealers are not selling to gang bangers, they are selling to the baby mommas, sisters, grandmothers and other relatives of the gang members who can pass any background check.

That means, your magical background checks will still fail. Which you know, because it isn't about stopping gang members from getting guns...as we have seen in democrat controlled cities since they keep letting actual criminals they captured with guns out on bond and out of prison with short sentences......it is all about getting gun registration. That is the only reason you want universal background checks.

Nothing you stated is even remotely accurate or based in the real world.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Mudwhistle posted this story today....and I want an answer from the Pro-Gun Control crowd here on U.S.messageboard....

If the democrats tell us they care about gun crime, and they think that "Red Flag" laws are the way to help reduce gun crime......why did they veto the use of "Red Flag" laws against actual, known, repeat gun offenders....gang members and other criminals? Instead, the only targets of "Red Flag" laws will be gun owners who have committed no crime, who will then have to prove they are not dangerous having to pay lots of money to do it.....violations of the 2nd Amendment, the 5th Amendment, and the 4th Amendment.....

So....I would like to know from those who support gun control, why did the democrats veto using "Red Flag" laws against known criminals?

From Mudwhistle's post.....

September 21, 2019
Dems Veto Red Flag Law for Gangbangers
By Daniel John Sobieski
If Democrats were serious about using red flag laws to keep guns out if the hands of people who might use them to senselessly murder others and therefore are danger to society, and not just as a gun-control tool to disarm law-abiding citizens, then why did they kill an attempt to use compiled lists of known gang members, which many police departments and law enforcement agencies possess? Why did they kill a measure to red flag gang members? And if Beto O’Rourke is going to come and take our guns, particularly our AR-15s, is he going to start on the south side of Chicago? As the Washington Examiner noted on September 14:

First and foremost, you start with a false presupposition:

Democrats and the left in general are very specific as to what they want. They say things like: they claim to want "common sense gun laws", keep guns out of the wrong hands, keep criminals from getting guns, and other such carefully crafted terminology.

In short, their objective is never about saving lives. It is about gun control. I have written and submitted legislation to both state and federal legislators that would reduce mass shootings by 90 percent without any new taxes, no new bureaucracies and NO gun control. Democrats are not interested in even discussing the proposition because it does not contain gun control language. If I could reduce mass shootings by that much, it would have an definite impact on gang violence, domestic shootings, etc.

The Democrats desperately need a criminal underclass in order to remain relevant in our society. They may fear that Red Flag gun laws would be over-turned in the current courts. In any event, I don't think they would level with you about their current strategy.

 

[M14 Shooter]

"Red Flag " laws have two objectives:
- Disarm the law abiding
- Limit free speech by gun owners.
Any actual protection afforded to potential victims is an afterthought.

 

[M14 Shooter]

What would affect them is if we passed a law to where all sales of guns would have to go through the same background check.

It's cute how you think gang members will be affected in any way by universal background checks.

 

[daveman]

Do gang members utilize legitimate gun dealers?
I would think not given their purposes for gun ownership.
I don't think the Red Flag laws would affect them.

It wouldn’t.

What would affect them is if we passed a law to where all sales of guns would have to go through the same background check. Person A has a gun. Person B wants to buy the gun. They travel down to someone who is certified by the ATF (or whomever) to do the background check. The local tax office, court house, gun dealers, etc…. and the sale is contingent upon Person B passing a background check. Safe. Simple. Secure. Sane.

If no certified authority authorized the sale, the buyer and seller are both subject to being charged with commission of a crime.

It would make the dealers who sell to gang bangers think twice.

Would it stop someone who is probably already a criminal? No…they’re not buying from legitimate people to start with. Would it stop some of the gun flow from responsible owners to gang members? Yep.

Ninety Percent of Guns Used in Crime Not Obtained From Gun Stores/Shows

The Department of Justice just updated its decades-old study asking criminals where they got the guns they used in committing the crime for which they were currently incarcerated. After asking 287,000 prisoners in 2016 where they got the gun they used, 90 percent of them “did not obtain it from a retail source” and less than one percent obtained it from a gun show.

Half of them obtained their firearm from the “underground” market, while just six percent said they stole it. The survey reported that “most of the remainder had obtained it from a family member or a friend, or as a gift. Seven percent had purchased it under their own name from a licensed firearm dealer.”​

 

[candycorn]

Do gang members utilize legitimate gun dealers?
I would think not given their purposes for gun ownership.
I don't think the Red Flag laws would affect them.

It wouldn’t.

What would affect them is if we passed a law to where all sales of guns would have to go through the same background check. Person A has a gun. Person B wants to buy the gun. They travel down to someone who is certified by the ATF (or whomever) to do the background check. The local tax office, court house, gun dealers, etc…. and the sale is contingent upon Person B passing a background check. Safe. Simple. Secure. Sane.

If no certified authority authorized the sale, the buyer and seller are both subject to being charged with commission of a crime.

It would make the dealers who sell to gang bangers think twice.

Would it stop someone who is probably already a criminal? No…they’re not buying from legitimate people to start with. Would it stop some of the gun flow from responsible owners to gang members? Yep.

It will not stop the straw purches buying or selling or the outright sale of a firearm to a gang member at all...

But

That is not the point of this thread and the point is why would your political party object to the usage of the list if it stop just one gun sale and save one life?

Your political party is all for government lists like the No-Fly list, so why not the gang bangers list?

Simple, it focuses on minorities directly and not white society and the Democrats are not going to support that at all.

Had the list focused on the average white man then Democrats would have passed the bill quickly and with smiles in their faces...

I’m an independent and regularly split my ticket locally and statewide

 

[candycorn]

What would affect them is if we passed a law to where all sales of guns would have to go through the same background check.

It's cute how you think gang members will be affected in any way by universal background checks.

It’s cute you thought I was talking about gang members

 

[M14 Shooter]

What would affect them is if we passed a law to where all sales of guns would have to go through the same background check.

It's cute how you think gang members will be affected in any way by universal background checks.

It’s cute you thought I was talking about gang members

The person to whom you responded directly mentioned gang members.
Did you reply to him out of context?
Who is the "them" in your response that I quoted, if not gang members"?