Let There Be Peace Already

[JStone]

Stone -

I have explained to you twice why Palestine is as legitimate a term as German or Italian.

Please post honestly, and ideally also please acknowledge when you have been proven wrong. Posting what you know to be false is simply lying.

The term Israel is entirely 'correct', and dates back thousands of years. It seems amazing that a self-professed expert doesn't know where the word Israel comes from. It in no way conflicts with the term Judea.

Please provide proof of your claim that 10% of the Roman Empire was Jewish, and I'll take a look at it.

I think we both know that it is nonsense.

Stone -

No one disputes that the word Palestine is relatively recent. Howver, as you have been shown, many national titles are much more recent invetions, and this in no way compromises the concept of the state.

Do you accept that Italy is a legimate state?

Either rebut these points with on topic arguments, or admit that you are wrong.

Also, please back up your claim that 10 per cent of people on Roman lands were actually Jewish.

Spamming the thread with off topic quotes is not presenting a factual and substantive point. As an expert in this field, you should know this.

Israel, not palestine, dummy.

Old Testament

Exodus 34:27: Then the LORD said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.

New Testament

John 12:13 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, “Hosanna! “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! “Blessed is the king of Israel!”

Quran

Quran 10:93 We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them.

 

[Saigon]

JStone -

Please try and post honestly and logically, rather than just spouting childish abuse.

Again - do you contend that Italy and Germany are not legitmate states, given that the names Germany and Italy are younger than the name of Palestine?

 

[Truthseeker420]

If I were prime minister of Israel the first thing I would do is acknowledge that Hamas is the duly elected government of the Palestinian people. No peace can be obtained by just ignoring Hamas as a terrorist organization. I would invite all of Hamas leaders to Tel Aviv for peace negotiations. I would provide them with the most lavish housing & fine dining available throughout this historic event. After an introductory dinner while we are all seated I would make an announcement to Hamas --- Welcome & thank you for coming. From now on, each time you kill an Israeli, Israel will retaliate by killing 10,000 Palestinians. Then I would open up the meeting for peace negotiations. What could be more fair & ethical than to let Hamas decide how many, if any, Palestinians Israel will have to kill for peace.

so you're no better than a suicide bomber.

 

[Saigon]

And we are back to irrelevent spam....what a surprise.

You raised the topic of the word 'Palestine', and then run away from the topic as soon as you are challenged.

Staggering stuff from an expert!!

btw - We should definitely follow Roudy's idea and all post or qualifications to post on this topic. I'm ver keen, and very interested to see what your qualifications are.

 

[JStone]

JStone -

Please try and post honestly and logically, rather than just spouting childish abuse.

Again - do you contend that Italy and Germany are not legitmate states, given that the names Germany and Italy are younger than the name of Palestine?

Israel, not palestine. Israel is the name the indigenous Jews gave to their land. Palestine was an occupying Roman pagan invention to destroy Jewish nationhood.

Eminent Middle East Historian Dr. Bernard Lewis, Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University, Author, "The Middle East: A Brief History of the Last 2000 Years," "The Future of the Middle East," "The Shaping of the Modern Middle East," "The End of Modern History in the Middle East," Faith and Power: Religion and Politics in the Middle East"

The countries forming the western arm of the Fertile Crescent were called by the names of the various kingdoms and peoples that ruled and inhabited them. Of these, the most familiar, or at least the best documented, are the southern lands, known in the earlier books of the Hebrew Bible and some other ancient writings as Canaan. After the Israelite conquest and settlement, the area inhabited by them came to be described as "land of the children of Israel" or simply "land of Israel" After the breakup of the kingdom of David and Solomon in the tenth century BCE, the southern part, with Jerusalem as its capital, was called Judah, while the north was called Israel

It is by now commonplace that the civilizations of the Middle East are oldest known to human history. They go back thousands of years, much older than the civilizations of India and China, not to speak of other upstart places. It is also interesting, though now often forgotten, that the ancient civilizations of the Middle East were almost totally obliterated and forgotten by their own people as well as by others. Their monuments were defaced or destroyed, their languages forgotten, their scripts forgotten, their history forgotten and even their identities forgotten.

All that was known about them came from one single source, and that is Israel, the only component of the ancient Middle East to have retained their identity, their memory, their language and their books. For a very long time, up to comparatively modern times, with rare exceptions all that was known about the ancient Middle East--the Babylonians, the Egyptians and the rest--was what the Jewish tradiiton has preserved.
Amazon.com: Political Words and Ideas in Islam (9781558764248): Bernard Lewis: Books

PBS: Civilization and the Jews

The interaction of Jewish history and Western civilization successively assumed different forms. In the Biblical and Ancient periods, Israel was an integral part of the Near Eastern and classical world, which gave birth to Western civilization. It shared the traditions of ancient Mesopotamia and the rest of that world with regard to it’s own beginning; it benefited from the decline of Egypt and the other great Near Eastern empires to emerge as a nation in it’s own right; it asserted it’s claim to the divinely promised Land of Israel
PBS - Heritage

Harvard University Semitic Museum: The Houses of Ancient Israel The Houses of Ancient Israel § Semitic Museum

In archaeological terms The Houses of Ancient Israel: Domestic, Royal, Divine focuses on the Iron Age (1200-586 B.C.E.). Iron I (1200-1000 B.C.E.) represents the premonarchical period. Iron II (1000-586 B.C.E.) was the time of kings. Uniting the tribal coalitions of Israel and Judah in the tenth century B.C.E., David and Solomon ruled over an expanding realm. After Solomon's death (c. 930 B.C.E.) Israel and Judah separated into two kingdoms.
Israel was led at times by strong kings, Omri and Ahab in the ninth century B.C.E. and Jereboam II in the eighth.

Harvard University Semitic Museum: Jerusalem During The Reign Of King Hezekiah--New Exhibition At The Semitic Museum Re-Creates Numerous Aspects Of Ancient Israel Harvard Gazette: Jerusalem during the reign of King Hezekiah

The Semitic Museum has installed a new exhibition that brings the world of biblical Israel into vivid, three-dimensional reality. "The Houses of Ancient Israel: Domestic, Royal, Divine" immerses the viewer in Israelite daily life around the time of King Hezekiah (8th century B.C.), creating an experiential environment based on the latest archaeological, textual, and historical research.
The centerpiece of the exhibition is a full-scale Israelite house, open on one side, filled with authentic ancient artifacts that show how life was lived by common inhabitants of ancient Jerusalem. Agricultural tools, a cooking area, and a stall occupied by a single, scruffy ram fill the ground floor of the cube-shaped, mud-brick structure, which, thankfully, is not olfactorily authentic. The upper story, reached by a ladder, is devoted to eating and sleeping.

Yale University Press: The Archaeology of Ancient Israel The Archaeology of Ancient Israel - Ben-Tor, Amnon; Greenberg, R. - Yale University Press

In this lavishly illustrated book some of Israel's foremost archaeologists present a thorough, up-to-date, and readily accessible survey of early life in the land of the Bible, from the Neolithic era (eighth millennium B.C.E.) to the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the First Temple in 586 B.C.E. It will be a delightful and informative resource for anyone who has ever wanted to know more about the religious, scientific, or historical background of the region.

 

[Saigon]

JStone & Roudy -

So when do you guys want to post our qualifications to post on the Middle East?

Shall we maybe make a separate thread for it?

Do you guys want to go first, or shall I?

btw, I guess this is obvious - but everything should be verifiable. If you are going to claim to have been to the Istaqlal Mosue, expect to be asked for pictures.

 

[Lipush]

So you're not a descendant of Jews like you claim, that's all.
And I was just saying that Jews won't ever consider you as a real Jew. Jus' sayin'.

First of all, you're not a Jew, and even less, you don't know anything about my family, so you cannot possibly know how they consider me and WHAT they consider me.

Second of all, it was their choice to take me in, if people would have not consider me Jewish, my parents would not have put me in that position to start with.

And last, I have said that i'm converted.

I hope I made myself clear. I'm Jewish, I'm Israeli, therefor I can speak in behalf of someone who's a Jew and Israeli.

And you're in no position to tell me who or what I am.

Like you say, you're a converted jew, not a real one. You can speak on behalf of hispanics who converted to Judaism and moved to Israel. And NO ONE, not even you're own family considers you a real Jew, ask them and look at their faces when they say you are, you'll get your answer.

I look at their faces every time, and all I see is love that is endless, and a lot of pride. I have no need to doubt or to feel that I don't belong.

The photo of which I was baptized in the Mikveh by the Rabbi of Ashdod, I came across it, btw, just few months ago, that is the first time I knew I was converted. I never thought of this before, I knew where I came from, but it was so trivial that it never crossed my mind that I needed to be converted. But once you are converted, there is no difference between you and the next friend.

but I don't think that someone who believes that one race is better then the other, like YOU DO, will ever understand that.

You simply have no idea how the world works. Not to mention your racism. I really hope your grandchildren and their children will think differently then you do.

 

[Lipush]

JStone -

Please try and post honestly and logically, rather than just spouting childish abuse.

Again - do you contend that Italy and Germany are not legitmate states, given that the names Germany and Italy are younger than the name of Palestine?

You know there is no "P" in Arabic, it is "Falastin" which kinds of loses its real meaning, since the word "Palestine" rooted in Hebrew, says "Paleshet", which means "to invade". This is how the Hebrews called the philisitines. how Palestinians of today philisitines? since the philisitines came from europe, i would vote no on that one

 

[ima]

First of all, you're not a Jew, and even less, you don't know anything about my family, so you cannot possibly know how they consider me and WHAT they consider me.

Second of all, it was their choice to take me in, if people would have not consider me Jewish, my parents would not have put me in that position to start with.

And last, I have said that i'm converted.

I hope I made myself clear. I'm Jewish, I'm Israeli, therefor I can speak in behalf of someone who's a Jew and Israeli.

And you're in no position to tell me who or what I am.

Like you say, you're a converted jew, not a real one. You can speak on behalf of hispanics who converted to Judaism and moved to Israel. And NO ONE, not even you're own family considers you a real Jew, ask them and look at their faces when they say you are, you'll get your answer.

I look at their faces every time, and all I see is love that is endless, and a lot of pride. I have no need to doubt or to feel that I don't belong.

The photo of which I was baptized in the Mikveh by the Rabbi of Ashdod, I came across it, btw, just few months ago, that is the first time I knew I was converted. I never thought of this before, I knew where I came from, but it was so trivial that it never crossed my mind that I needed to be converted. But once you are converted, there is no difference between you and the next friend.

but I don't think that someone who believes that one race is better then the other, like YOU DO, will ever understand that.

You simply have no idea how the world works. Not to mention your racism. I really hope your grandchildren and their children will think differently then you do.

So which race do I think is superior, since you seem to know. I was just pointing out facts, it has nothing to do with my personal beliefs.

 

[JStone]

Like you say, you're a converted jew, not a real one. You can speak on behalf of hispanics who converted to Judaism and moved to Israel. And NO ONE, not even you're own family considers you a real Jew, ask them and look at their faces when they say you are, you'll get your answer.

I look at their faces every time, and all I see is love that is endless, and a lot of pride. I have no need to doubt or to feel that I don't belong.

The photo of which I was baptized in the Mikveh by the Rabbi of Ashdod, I came across it, btw, just few months ago, that is the first time I knew I was converted. I never thought of this before, I knew where I came from, but it was so trivial that it never crossed my mind that I needed to be converted. But once you are converted, there is no difference between you and the next friend.

but I don't think that someone who believes that one race is better then the other, like YOU DO, will ever understand that.

You simply have no idea how the world works. Not to mention your racism. I really hope your grandchildren and their children will think differently then you do.

So which race do I think is superior, since you seem to know. I was just pointing out facts, it has nothing to do with my personal beliefs.

Ima Dunce, which one is you in the pic?


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Vp642ERhM&feature=related]Sound-Effects - Crowd Laughing - YouTube[/ame][/QUOTE]

 

[MJB12741]

She is Jewish by choice. Why do you have a problem with that?

So you're not a descendant of Jews like you claim, that's all.
And I was just saying that Jews won't ever consider you as a real Jew. Jus' sayin'.

First of all, you're not a Jew, and even less, you don't know anything about my family, so you cannot possibly know how they consider me and WHAT they consider me.

Second of all, it was their choice to take me in, if people would have not consider me Jewish, my parents would not have put me in that position to start with.

And last, I have said that i'm converted.

I hope I made myself clear. I'm Jewish, I'm Israeli, therefor I can speak in behalf of someone who's a Jew and Israeli.

And you're in no position to tell me who or what I am.

Like you say, you're a converted jew, not a real one. You can speak on behalf of hispanics who converted to Judaism and moved to Israel. And NO ONE, not even you're own family considers you a real Jew, ask them and look at their faces when they say you are, you'll get your answer.

 

[Lipush]

Like you say, you're a converted jew, not a real one. You can speak on behalf of hispanics who converted to Judaism and moved to Israel. And NO ONE, not even you're own family considers you a real Jew, ask them and look at their faces when they say you are, you'll get your answer.

I look at their faces every time, and all I see is love that is endless, and a lot of pride. I have no need to doubt or to feel that I don't belong.

The photo of which I was baptized in the Mikveh by the Rabbi of Ashdod, I came across it, btw, just few months ago, that is the first time I knew I was converted. I never thought of this before, I knew where I came from, but it was so trivial that it never crossed my mind that I needed to be converted. But once you are converted, there is no difference between you and the next friend.

but I don't think that someone who believes that one race is better then the other, like YOU DO, will ever understand that.

You simply have no idea how the world works. Not to mention your racism. I really hope your grandchildren and their children will think differently then you do.

So which race do I think is superior, since you seem to know. I was just pointing out facts, it has nothing to do with my personal beliefs.

You don't back up your "facts" with anything valid, and I can point up a living proof that your "facts" are not true. That makes it an opinion.

Since you obviously think that my surrounding think of me as "subhuman" since I am "not a real Jew" (quoting your own words), also, without backing it up, you simply show an opinion, which again, based on nothing but assumptions. since you assume that Jews, not matter who and from where, think they're better than anyone else, it means you follow the same pattern that previous Jew haters followed.

Next you're gonna probably blaim us for drinking Christian blood.

Oh, but wait. I am not 'a real Jew'. So I don't do that. the people who raised me do, though. But since it *IS* the 21 century, it's probably Palestinian blood,now, right?

riiiiight.

 

[Saigon]

If someone lives in Israel and feels Jewish - as far as I am concerned, they are Jewish.

Mosrt Israeli Jews are not Sabra...it shouldn't matter where someone was born. There are a million Russian-born Ashkenazim Jews in Israel - who says they are not really Jewish?

 

[Lipush]

She is Jewish by choice. Why do you have a problem with that?

First of all, you're not a Jew, and even less, you don't know anything about my family, so you cannot possibly know how they consider me and WHAT they consider me.

Second of all, it was their choice to take me in, if people would have not consider me Jewish, my parents would not have put me in that position to start with.

And last, I have said that i'm converted.

I hope I made myself clear. I'm Jewish, I'm Israeli, therefor I can speak in behalf of someone who's a Jew and Israeli.

And you're in no position to tell me who or what I am.

Like you say, you're a converted jew, not a real one. You can speak on behalf of hispanics who converted to Judaism and moved to Israel. And NO ONE, not even you're own family considers you a real Jew, ask them and look at their faces when they say you are, you'll get your answer.

this is not that I'm converted Jew that is Ima's problem. Ima's desperate to believe that because i wasn't BORN Jewish, that my family thinks I worth less then a "pure blooded" Jew. I told Ima this is far from the truth, but when this bigoted believe is so deeply rooted, Ima cannot except anything but the truth that racism creats for itself.

 

[MJB12741]

Yes but let us be careful not to make a point of correcting Ima. Where will we go for fun & laughs if he leaves us?

She is Jewish by choice. Why do you have a problem with that?

Like you say, you're a converted jew, not a real one. You can speak on behalf of hispanics who converted to Judaism and moved to Israel. And NO ONE, not even you're own family considers you a real Jew, ask them and look at their faces when they say you are, you'll get your answer.

this is not that I'm converted Jew that is Ima's problem. Ima's desperate to believe that because i wasn't BORN Jewish, that my family thinks I worth less then a "pure blooded" Jew. I told Ima this is far from the truth, but when this bigoted believe is so deeply rooted, Ima cannot except anything but the truth that racism creats for itself.

 

[ima]

She is Jewish by choice. Why do you have a problem with that?

First of all, you're not a Jew, and even less, you don't know anything about my family, so you cannot possibly know how they consider me and WHAT they consider me.

Second of all, it was their choice to take me in, if people would have not consider me Jewish, my parents would not have put me in that position to start with.

And last, I have said that i'm converted.

I hope I made myself clear. I'm Jewish, I'm Israeli, therefor I can speak in behalf of someone who's a Jew and Israeli.

And you're in no position to tell me who or what I am.

Like you say, you're a converted jew, not a real one. You can speak on behalf of hispanics who converted to Judaism and moved to Israel. And NO ONE, not even you're own family considers you a real Jew, ask them and look at their faces when they say you are, you'll get your answer.

I have no problem with anyone converting to a religion, it's that she said she was a descendant of some white Jewish important person, and she's not, she's adopted and hispanic. Jus' sayin'.

 

[ima]

She is Jewish by choice. Why do you have a problem with that?

Like you say, you're a converted jew, not a real one. You can speak on behalf of hispanics who converted to Judaism and moved to Israel. And NO ONE, not even you're own family considers you a real Jew, ask them and look at their faces when they say you are, you'll get your answer.

this is not that I'm converted Jew that is Ima's problem. Ima's desperate to believe that because i wasn't BORN Jewish, that my family thinks I worth less then a "pure blooded" Jew. I told Ima this is far from the truth, but when this bigoted believe is so deeply rooted, Ima cannot except anything but the truth that racism creats for itself.

I'm sure your family loves you almost as much as if you were a real born Jew. And you ARE worth less in the eyes of Jews, because you were born a gentile. If you don't think that Jews think that they alone are god's chosen people and the rest of us are barely above shmucks, then you obviously don't know much about Judaism and your "fellow" Jews.

 

[Lipush]

She is Jewish by choice. Why do you have a problem with that?

Like you say, you're a converted jew, not a real one. You can speak on behalf of hispanics who converted to Judaism and moved to Israel. And NO ONE, not even you're own family considers you a real Jew, ask them and look at their faces when they say you are, you'll get your answer.

I have no problem with anyone converting to a religion, it's that she said she was a descendant of some white Jewish important person, and she's not, she's adopted and hispanic. Jus' sayin'.

I was adopted by Sabra Jewish mother. her family was here since the end of the 1800's. My father was not born in Israel, but he has a very well known heritage of his Jewish Rabbis grandparents, the Jewish community of Hungary is all familiar with who they were and how they lived.

I'm my patents' only daughter, and this is the family heritage I carry. I am no different than the next Israeli Jew.

 

[ima]

She is Jewish by choice. Why do you have a problem with that?

I have no problem with anyone converting to a religion, it's that she said she was a descendant of some white Jewish important person, and she's not, she's adopted and hispanic. Jus' sayin'.

I was adopted by Sabra Jewish mother. her family was here since the end of the 1800's. My father was not born in Israel, but he has a very well known heritage of his Jewish Rabbis grandparents, the Jewish community of Hungary is all familiar with who they were and how they lived.

I'm my patents' only daughter, and this is the family heritage I carry. I am no different than the next Israeli Jew.

This is your adoptive family's heritage, your own heritage passes through the woman (crack whore?) who gave birth to you and the man whose sperm sealed the deal.

 

[Lipush]

She is Jewish by choice. Why do you have a problem with that?

this is not that I'm converted Jew that is Ima's problem. Ima's desperate to believe that because i wasn't BORN Jewish, that my family thinks I worth less then a "pure blooded" Jew. I told Ima this is far from the truth, but when this bigoted believe is so deeply rooted, Ima cannot except anything but the truth that racism creats for itself.

I'm sure your family loves you almost as much as if you were a real born Jew. And you ARE worth less in the eyes of Jews, because you were born a gentile. If you don't think that Jews think that they alone are god's chosen people and the rest of us are barely above shmucks, then you obviously don't know much about Judaism and your "fellow" Jews.

First of all, your statement is an oxymoron, since most people outside my family don't even know that I was born a gentile. We don't actually talk about it with strangers. So how can they think less of me.

Second, I do know the community I live in, to tell you that what you say is not true. The Jews of the world don't see themselves as better then anyone else, they simply see themselves as different from the rest of the world. Because the rest of the world rejected the Jews, isolated them, banned them, some of the Jews learned or thought that would be better to far themselves from the gentiles, since it's the only way of surviving normally. When Jews tried to blind in, they were rejected, when they pulled themselved out, people thought they were racists. it's became a lose-lose kind of situation.

I do remember that when being a child and hearing on politics and the conflict of the radio, I used to ask why is the world so blind, and what will the future bring? maybe if we just explain to them how things are, they would "leave us alone", and my dad said to me the same that his father told him after WW2. "Ein Emuna BaGoyim", "We won't put our blind faith in the gentiles", he said "only in ourselves we trust".

When my old man was young, he used to go to school in a small village near Budapest. He went there with his brother, who was 2 years older then he, and another Jewish boy in a different class. they were the 3 only Jewish boys in the whole school. the school manager happened to be extremely Antisemitic, just like many Hunganian Christians after the holocaust. The boy in the different class was maybe 10, i think even younger, while my uncle was 8 and my father just turned 6. The other boy got into a fight with other two boys, they were harrasing him for his weird accent, and he pushed one of them in a moment of fury; the school manager saw this, catched the boy from his name and spit in his face, 'Mit csinálsz, te szennye Zsidó??', ('What are you doing, you filthy Jew??') they boy was helpless then furious of the public unjustified humiliation, my father and uncle both saw this incident with the other kids in the yard, so the boy did the probably most idiotic thing an angry kid could do at the moment. he braught his right fist and punched the big man in the nose. when his grip on the boy got released, the child ran of like a squirl, jumped of the fence and was never seen again. Seeing that, my uncle took my fathers smaller hand in his, and told him, "C'mon, we're leaving". And that was the last day they learned in any school in Hungary. They knew the word will spread and they will have no permission to going back to school.

Apperenly, it's not US who think were better, like others who think we think that, while treating Jews like crap.