Lesbian Fire Chief Orders San Diego Gay Pride March

[Gunny]

Fag

DAMN .... you MUST suck. I don't think I've seen Gem get cranky, much less use foul language.

 

[Gem]

Gunny Wrote:

DAMN .... you MUST suck. I don't think I've seen Gem get cranky, much less use foul language.

LOL. Don't worry, Gunny. I'm actually just amused at this point. So far, all Snowman has done is make asinine statements that have no basis in reality, call people "fags," and pop in now and then to say, "What a lame analogy," when people point out the tractor-trailer sized holes in his "logic." Thats doesn't make someone cranky...thats a recipe for some great laughs on the message board!

 

[Ninja]

There are no holes in my logic. I showed you the SDFD Fireman I job description and explained why the fire chief was within her right when she ordered the firemen to drive a fire engine down the street in a non-emergency situation.

You, Matt and Baron, on the other hand have done nothing but produce slippery slope and straw man arguments that would make even a D-grade Logic 101A student cringe. The slippery slope and the straw man are logical fallacies. Do you know what a logical fallacy is, Gem?

My posts in this thread have dealt exclusively with the issue at hand, while the three of you have gone off on your typical libtard wild goose chases - bosses patting their secretaries on the ass, KKK rallies, secretaries being forced to shop for their bosses' wives' birthday gifts, secretaries being forced to do their bosses' laundry, people being served rat shit in restaurants. LOL

Baron's certifiably an idiot, Matt I think is just trying to beef up his Conservative street cred so he can validate his Bush bashing in other threads, and I still haven't figured out what your deal is. Estrogen poisoning?

Then again, this is an outcome-based message board… Gem, you're a genius and your arguments are rock-solid! Ever considered becoming a philosopher or a lawyer?

W.R.T. me calling you a fag – you told me to. Don't invite me to do something and then feign outrage when I take you up on your offer. Take your socialist victim B.S. somewhere else.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

There are no holes in my logic. I showed you the SDFD Fireman I job description and explained why the fire chief was within her right when she ordered the firemen to drive a fire engine down the street in a non-emergency situation.

You, Matt and Baron, on the other hand have done nothing but produce slippery slope and straw man arguments that would make even a D-grade Logic 101A student cringe. The slippery slope and the straw man are logical fallacies. Do you know what a logical fallacy is, Gem?

My posts in this thread have dealt exclusively with the issue at hand, while the three of you have gone off on your typical libtard wild goose chases - bosses patting their secretaries on the ass, KKK rallies, secretaries being forced to shop for their bosses' wives' birthday gifts, secretaries being forced to do their bosses' laundry, people being served rat shit in restaurants. LOL

Baron's certifiably an idiot, Matt I think is just trying to beef up his Conservative street cred so he can validate his Bush bashing in other threads, and I still haven't figured out what your deal is. Estrogen poisoning?

Then again, this is an outcome-based message board… Gem, you're a genius and your arguments are rock-solid! Ever considered becoming a philosopher or a lawyer?

W.R.T. me calling you a fag – you told me to. Don't invite me to do something and then feign outrage when I take you up on your offer. Take your socialist victim B.S. somewhere else.

Again... So your saying that if the Fire Chief Ordered a fire truck driven in a " We Love Bush" Parade or a " Kill all the Fags" parade they would have no reason to complain and should just shut up and do it? I mean after all they are JUST DRIVING a fire truck down the road and all.

 

[Gem]

Snowman Wrote:

There are no holes in my logic. I showed you the SDFD Fireman I job description and explained why the fire chief was within her right when she ordered the firemen to drive a fire engine down the street in a non-emergency situation.

And the job description you posted, while an interesting addition to the debate, does not support the fact that to be a person who fights fires you have to agree to support and endorse the political views of your boss. It mentions nothing at all about parades and rallys. It mentions that in doing the job of a firefighter (that is, to fight fires) you have to drive firefighting and other related vehicles.

You, Matt and Baron, on the other hand have done nothing but produce slippery slope and straw man arguments that would make even a D-grade Logic 101A student cringe. The slippery slope and the straw man are logical fallacies. Do you know what a logical fallacy is, Gem?

Neato, you took Logic in college. It doesn't change the fact that your argument to this point has basically been to point to a paper-thin job description and grunt.

My posts in this thread have dealt exclusively with the issue at hand, while the three of you have gone off on your typical libtard wild goose chases - bosses patting their secretaries on the ass, KKK rallies, secretaries being forced to shop for their bosses' wives' birthday gifts, secretaries being forced to do their bosses' laundry, people being served rat shit in restaurants. LOL

So while people here have offered analogies and comparisons (none of which you have addressed at all, aside from insulting those who posted them), you have offered a job description wide enough to drive a fire truck to as rock-solid "proof" that firefighters give up their constitutional rights at the Fire House door and become the metaphorical "bitches" of their fire chief...lol, you're right...you're a doctor of logical debate and discourse.

Baron's certifiably an idiot, Matt I think is just trying to beef up his Conservative street cred so he can validate his Bush bashing in other threads, and I still haven't figured out what your deal is. Estrogen poisoning?

Glad to see your maturity is showing. After starting this thread by using one of the lamest, overused insult attempts known to debate you continue by calling people stupid, posers, and...what, I've gone from being a closet fag to overly-feminine in a few posts? Impressive.

Then again, this is an outcome-based message board… Gem, you're a genius and your arguments are rock-solid! Ever considered becoming a philosopher or a lawyer?

They're a damn-sight better than yours so far, Snowman...thanks for recognizing it.

W.R.T. me calling you a fag – you told me to. Don't invite me to do something and then feign outrage when I take you up on your offer. Take your socialist victim B.S. somewhere else.

Whose outraged? I have simply called you out for starting your illustrious presence in this thread by demonstrating that when anyone questions why you are making the argument you make, you seem to fall back on sad little debate tactics rather than discussing the issue. You've chosen to post this way...thats not my fault, its yours...so please don't blame me because you've been unable to debate without falling back on old and tired insults and deflections.


Now, while you're here...how about actually answering the questions that has been posed to you numerous times: Since you believe that the job description of a San Diego firefighter includes driving vehicles wherever the fire chief tells them to, would you tell a firefighter forced to drive the truck in a KKK rally to suck it up or be fired? And do you actually believe that a fire chief has the right to require his/her firefighters to give their support to political and social issues they do not believe in?

 

[JeffWartman]

Again... So your saying that if the Fire Chief Ordered a fire truck driven in a " We Love Bush" Parade or a " Kill all the Fags" parade they would have no reason to complain and should just shut up and do it? I mean after all they are JUST DRIVING a fire truck down the road and all.

Man, you aren't very perceptive.

There's no basis for making that argument considering snowman is right wing.

How dumb are you, RGS?

 

[Ninja]

If my position forces me to support firemen being ordered to participate in a KKK rally, then Matt's/Gem's/Baron's/RGS' position forces them to support firemen participating in a KKK rally in uniform, so long as they're doing so on their own volition.

Do you guys think that it's okay for firemen to participate in a "Kill the Fags" rally in uniform so long as they were given the choice to participate or not participate? This is the corner you have all painted yourselves into.

Shall I enumerate the ways in which a gay pride parade is different then a KKK/"Kill the Fags"/"We Love Bush" rally? Or someone ordering soup at a restaurant for that matter?

The only analogous situation would be some other type of pride rally. Would I support the firemen being ordered to participate in a White pride rally? Absolutely! The double standard regarding other groups' right to be proud and that of whites is one of my hot button issues. And you can be damn sure firemen have participated in an Ethnic Group X Pride Parade in the past.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

The fact is, she subjected her employees to sexual harrassment.
Sexual harrassment is against the law.

Why is it liberals get so bent when the tables are turned?

 

[Gem]

If my position forces me to support firemen being ordered to participate in a KKK rally, then Matt's/Gem's/Baron's/RGS' position forces them to support firemen participating in a KKK rally in uniform, so long as they're doing so on their own volition.

Actually, no...because my position is that no one should be forced to attend an "social/political" event, such as a rally or parade. You seem to be saying that you support a fire chiefs right to force firefighters into attending events that go against their beliefs for no discernible purpose other than to advance/support the chief's beliefs. Because of this belief, you would say that if a fire chief wants to force his/her firefighters to attend a KKK rally...you would go along with that.

I am saying that because both a KKK rally and a Gay Pride rally involve strong feelings on all sides of the spectrums that they bring up - forcing someone to attend and, by participation in the event, passively condone - a fire chief should have absolutely NO right and/or authority to force their employees to attend such an event.

Whether or not a firefighter SHOULD attend such events in uniform as a representative of the fire department is a wholly separate question from whether they should be FORCED to attend.

Do you guys think that it's okay for firemen to participate in a "Kill the Fags" rally in uniform so long as they were given the choice to participate or not participate? This is the corner you have all painted yourselves into.

No, I do not think it is ok. Again, the question of whether or not a firefighter SHOULD is a different question from whether they should HAVE TO in order to keep their job.

If anyone is in a corner on this one, it is you, Snowman. By stating that a firefighter HAS to follow the orders of their fire chief when it comes to issues such as this - you have tied yourself to the opinion that if a fire chief wants his/her department to march in a Gay Pride parade - the firefighters must follow blindly or face termination....if a fire chief wants his/her department to march in a White Pride parade - the firefighters must follow blindly or face determination.

Shall I enumerate the ways in which a gay pride parade is different then a KKK/"Kill the Fags"/"We Love Bush" rally? Or someone ordering soup at a restaurant for that matter?

I have a feeling that you and I have very similar views on how a gay pride parade is different than the other events mentioned. However, because of YOUR original arguement - the fact that you find one type of event acceptable and one event unacceptable is immaterial. You stated that a fire chief has the right to tell his her staff what to do and they must obey. We disagreed...now you want to change the topic to whether the individuals SHOULD attend such an event or whether one event is more acceptable than another...both great questions...but not answering the original topic - which was should a fire chief has the right to require employees to attend social/political events they don't believe in. I think even you are starting to see that saying that the fire chief does have this power is incredibly problematic.

The only analogous situation would be some other type of pride rally. Would I support the firemen being ordered to participate in a White pride rally? Absolutely! The double standard regarding other groups' right to be proud and that of whites is one of my hot button issues. And you can be damn sure firemen have participated in an Ethnic Group X Pride Parade in the past.

While a white pride rally might be more analogous to a gay pride rally (although there are obvious differences which I'm sure you're bright enough to pick up on), it is, again, irrelevant.

The discussion has not been about whether or not a fire chief has the right to make his/her employees attend "pride" events...but rather whether or not the chief has the right to force his/her employees to go wherever the chief chooses. To this point, you have been arguing that the chief has this right...most others here have been arguing that the chief does not (or perhaps, more correctly, SHOULD not).

If you would like to reframe your argument to state that the fire chief can force his/her employees to attend "pride"-type rallies and not other types of events you deem as unfit...you can, but I do not think it will strengthen your argument. If you'd like to pose the question about whether or not a firefighter (or other type of worker) should be permitted to attend whichever social/political event they choose as a representative of their profession you can...its an interesting question...but it is not the original one.

 

[mattskramer]

The fact is, she subjected her employees to sexual harrassment.
Sexual harrassment is against the law.

Why is it liberals get so bent when the tables are turned?

You might think that I’m a liberal. I consider myself to be a moderate. I am consistent in my philosophy. Public school teachers are to teach the basics that children need in order to progress: Math, English, and Basic Science, etc. They are not to preach or lead in prayers. Likewise, a fireman’s job is to fight fires. He is not required to participate in KKK parades or Gay Parades or any other type of parade. It is time for us to get back to the basics of peoples responsibilities.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200708/CUL20070806b.html

A religious legal organization on Monday announced plans to sue the City of San Diego after firefighters there were allegedly forced to participate in the city's "Gay Pride" parade and subjected to "vile sexual taunts."

Now I don’t know the current status of this lawsuit, but in this case, I hope that this religious legal organization wins this case. Don’t you understand? To the same extent that I think that public school children should not be pressured to participate in Christian prayer, I think that firefighters should not be pressured to attend Gay Pride parades.

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

The issue is really simple.

Does the contract specify non-emergency use? Yes.

Does the implied meaning of a contract matter? I'm not a lawyer, but I would hope that it does.

Would most firefighters about to sign on the dotted line assume that it means "drive in a gay parade"? Unless you are someone tied firmly into a straitjacket, I don't see how you could answer anything besides "no". They would assume that it means drive the truck to the repair shop or some such thing.

Honestly, if this were female firefighters being forced to drive in a Tits and Ass Appreciation Parade, everyone would be up in arms, regardless of their pay grade. For the record, I don't think the fire department should be involved in any parade; I think their job should be putting out fires, period.