Legalize It!

If we took out all nonviolent drug offenders that would be a significant number of people and would certainly help our overcrowding problem.
You repeat the same myth, the same lie. And fail to realize that "non violent drug offenders" would still be arrested and jailed if drugs were legalized and taxed. Just like any other bootlegger be it alcohol or cigarettes and other tobacco products. Except that's a federal crime, with much harsher sentences. If you make or grow or brew and then sell the shit without a tax stamp, you're looking at 10 years in federal prison.

I don't think you can get past the mantra to even realize what you're saying. Legalizing marijuana or any of the other recreational drugs won't stop arrests. Folks illegally dealing in these will face federal charges instead.

Do you get it yet?

So there you have it, legalizing drugs will NOT have any effect on prison overcrowding. One because the issue is greatly exaggerated, as I pointed out earlier, and two because the "legal" drugs will be regulated and taxed, and if you're caught bootlegging it your ass will go up federal.

You can't be serious.

Although liquore and cigarette bootlegging does in fact happen , how many delaers in those products arebehind bars versus recreational drug offenders?

Lest we forget all people in prison for peripheral crimes involved in the drug trade, like gun running, knee-capping of rivals, drive-by shootings etcetera.
 
No one is in prison just for smoking weed. They are there either for trafficking it -- which they still would be if it was legalized and taxed, if they were selling it illegally -- or for other unrelated felony charges in which the weed was just another misdemeanor charge. Trafficking it illegally would be federal charges instead of state, were it legalized, which much harsher penalties I might add. And by the way, marijuana charges causing prison overcrowding is by far the biggest lie, the biggest myth of the entire argument.

To the OP: It's important to make the distinction between legalization and de-criminalization. Legalization means it will be regulated and taxed like tobacco and alcohol. De-criminalization means, no regulation at all, we can grow it and use it to our little heart's content. For some reason, these terms have gotten confused and made interchangeable. They are not.

I am for legalization. Same laws applying to weed as alcohol. Can you imagine our agricultural might, as we grow weed and export it throughout the world? As we also grow and use hemp?

Good thread, good OP.

Well I'm not just for legalizing marijuana, I'm for legalizing all drugs. If we accept the notion that we own our own bodies then how can you say that the government has the right to penalize us for using any drug? If we took out all nonviolent drug offenders that would be a significant number of people and would certainly help our overcrowding problem.

I have to disagree. There is a full spectrum of how drugs impact an individual and i'm not really ready to have a bunch of meth heads running around out in the open. There IS a hierarchy of substances. The problem has been the illogical nature of our present standard. Meth should not be legal.

what about heroin or cocaine?
 
oh, so the price has already skyrocketed wihtout taxes, damn! just wait your 200.00 oz will be 700.00

perhaps... perhaps not. You COULD go to the store and buy alcohol that is very much taxed by the gov....


....OR, you could brew your own Beer. or wine. whatever. Similarly, I'm thinking that if pot were legal and taxed there would be an allowable amount to be grown for personal use.

oh, so you dont think your plant out back is gonna be taxed? so youre sugggesting a tax dodge?

you can make 120 gallons of wine this year that will never see a single tax.
 
perhaps... perhaps not. You COULD go to the store and buy alcohol that is very much taxed by the gov....


....OR, you could brew your own Beer. or wine. whatever. Similarly, I'm thinking that if pot were legal and taxed there would be an allowable amount to be grown for personal use.

oh, so you dont think your plant out back is gonna be taxed? so youre sugggesting a tax dodge?

you can make 120 gallons of wine this year that will never see a single tax.

only 120? whos counting?

so, lemme ask...is it more costly to make a bottle of wine or to go buy one?
 
Well I'm not just for legalizing marijuana, I'm for legalizing all drugs. If we accept the notion that we own our own bodies then how can you say that the government has the right to penalize us for using any drug? If we took out all nonviolent drug offenders that would be a significant number of people and would certainly help our overcrowding problem.

I have to disagree. There is a full spectrum of how drugs impact an individual and i'm not really ready to have a bunch of meth heads running around out in the open. There IS a hierarchy of substances. The problem has been the illogical nature of our present standard. Meth should not be legal.

what about heroin or cocaine?

keep heroin illegal. allow pharmacies to sell small quantities of coke. like, an 8 ball a month.
 
I have to disagree. There is a full spectrum of how drugs impact an individual and i'm not really ready to have a bunch of meth heads running around out in the open. There IS a hierarchy of substances. The problem has been the illogical nature of our present standard. Meth should not be legal.
Problem with that line of reasoning is that legalization favors the less potent substance in lieu of the powerful and dangerous.

Liquor stores are a prime example.....Most of their profits come from beer and wine sales, rather than those of hard liquor, and almost nobody drinks PGA.

Not to say that you still won't have the problem user who just has to have the most potent drugs they can lay their hands on, just that there will definitely be vastly fewer of them.
 
I have to disagree. There is a full spectrum of how drugs impact an individual and i'm not really ready to have a bunch of meth heads running around out in the open. There IS a hierarchy of substances. The problem has been the illogical nature of our present standard. Meth should not be legal.

what about heroin or cocaine?

keep heroin illegal. allow pharmacies to sell small quantities of coke. like, an 8 ball a month.

why not just grow your own cocoa
 
oh, so you dont think your plant out back is gonna be taxed? so youre sugggesting a tax dodge?

you can make 120 gallons of wine this year that will never see a single tax.

only 120? whos counting?

so, lemme ask...is it more costly to make a bottle of wine or to go buy one?

not at all. Once you buy the equipment you can have years of alcoholic fun with water, sugar, fruit sugars and yeast. I have a gallon of dark cherries and red grape juice getting ready to be racked, as a matter of fact. I think I paid 1.50 for the packet of yeast and less than 10 bucks for the juices.
 
what about heroin or cocaine?

keep heroin illegal. allow pharmacies to sell small quantities of coke. like, an 8 ball a month.

why not just grow your own cocoa

Cocoa is not a plant that you'll grow in your back yard. Letalone process it to powder. Southern American countries literally sell tea made from cocoa, though. I have some from a trip down south. It's not really the same thing unprocessed.
 
you can make 120 gallons of wine this year that will never see a single tax.

only 120? whos counting?

so, lemme ask...is it more costly to make a bottle of wine or to go buy one?

not at all. Once you buy the equipment you can have years of alcoholic fun with water, sugar, fruit sugars and yeast. I have a gallon of dark cherries and red grape juice getting ready to be racked, as a matter of fact. I think I paid 1.50 for the packet of yeast and less than 10 bucks for the juices.

so for that investment in equipment etc how many bottle of comprable wine could you have bought?
 
only 120? whos counting?

so, lemme ask...is it more costly to make a bottle of wine or to go buy one?

not at all. Once you buy the equipment you can have years of alcoholic fun with water, sugar, fruit sugars and yeast. I have a gallon of dark cherries and red grape juice getting ready to be racked, as a matter of fact. I think I paid 1.50 for the packet of yeast and less than 10 bucks for the juices.

so for that investment in equipment etc how many bottle of comprable wine could you have bought?

750ml (1 bottle) vs 1 gallon

12$ (for cheep wine) vs 11.50~


and thats just a 1 gallon carboy. 5 gallons is typical.
 
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not at all. Once you buy the equipment you can have years of alcoholic fun with water, sugar, fruit sugars and yeast. I have a gallon of dark cherries and red grape juice getting ready to be racked, as a matter of fact. I think I paid 1.50 for the packet of yeast and less than 10 bucks for the juices.

so for that investment in equipment etc how many bottle of comprable wine could you have bought?

750ml (1 bottle) vs 1 gallon

12$ (for cheep wine) vs 11.50~


and thats just a 1 gallon carboy. 5 gallons is typical.

how long does it take for your wine to mature?
 
so for that investment in equipment etc how many bottle of comprable wine could you have bought?

750ml (1 bottle) vs 1 gallon

12$ (for cheep wine) vs 11.50~


and thats just a 1 gallon carboy. 5 gallons is typical.

how long does it take for your wine to mature?

depends on what you are trying to make. some alcohol levels take longer to achieve. You could cycle through 10 gallons per month and be in a state of perpetual drunkenness. Or, maybe you'd rather make mead out of honey... or, any number of plant sugars available. I've seen a dandelion recipe. The craft isn't necessarily how much you can pump out so much as how good you can make different variations. And, really, wine lovers are no different when picking out a bottle.
 
750ml (1 bottle) vs 1 gallon

12$ (for cheep wine) vs 11.50~


and thats just a 1 gallon carboy. 5 gallons is typical.

how long does it take for your wine to mature?

depends on what you are trying to make. some alcohol levels take longer to achieve. You could cycle through 10 gallons per month and be in a state of perpetual drunkenness. Or, maybe you'd rather make mead out of honey... or, any number of plant sugars available. I've seen a dandelion recipe. The craft isn't necessarily how much you can pump out so much as how good you can make different variations. And, really, wine lovers are no different when picking out a bottle.

so its not something that is sitting around for 10 or 20 years
 
It does no good for the public for somebody to get a fine or jail time for brewing their own alcohol and selling it. It simply punishes private initiative. If they're hurting nobody but themselves then there's no reason to prosecute them.
Ahh.... I see you've never been poisoned by bad home brew. Or been slipped any wood alkie, that some less then honest liquor bootleggers make and mix in with corn liquor...

Today we have drug dealers cutting smack and coke with ecstasy, or who knows what else.

This is the public safety part of regulation. To ensure quality and relative safety.

You would be able to prosecute for fraud if that occurred.
Please. That's a civil case.

If you're really an anarchist as far as drugs are concerned, just say so. There's nothing wrong with that position.
Shogun said:
See, HERE is the problem I have with the trafficking charge.. Yes, they move a controlled substance. Yes, that is against the law....

but.. conservatives...


isn't that nothing more that an industrious WILL TO WORK? to be SELF SUPPORTIVE? Tommy Chong went to jail for doing the same thing a widget maker does: sell a product to a desiring market. Yes? If pot were legal then selling dope on the street would look more like a tupperware party than a crack house. Glass blowers and greenhouses would create brand new business. We could literally save the entire cancer-ridden post-20th century tobacco industry by doing nothing more than trading seeds.
I haven't the first clue what a conservative would say in answer to you. I say, widgets are legal, marijuana is not. So it sort of takes the industrious, self-supportive part out of the equation. Same thing with organized crime -- they are industrious and self-supporting, but they're not legal.

Now, if you're going to legalize it then it will be taxed and regulated. That's just the nature of that beast. And as you said earlier, growing your own for personal use would be just fine, just like homebrew beer and wine. But selling it to folks, without a tax stamp, will land you in trouble with the feds eventually.
If we took out all nonviolent drug offenders that would be a significant number of people and would certainly help our overcrowding problem.
You repeat the same myth, the same lie. And fail to realize that "non violent drug offenders" would still be arrested and jailed if drugs were legalized and taxed. Just like any other bootlegger be it alcohol or cigarettes and other tobacco products. Except that's a federal crime, with much harsher sentences. If you make or grow or brew and then sell the shit without a tax stamp, you're looking at 10 years in federal prison.

I don't think you can get past the mantra to even realize what you're saying. Legalizing marijuana or any of the other recreational drugs won't stop arrests. Folks illegally dealing in these will face federal charges instead.

Do you get it yet?

So there you have it, legalizing drugs will NOT have any effect on prison overcrowding. One because the issue is greatly exaggerated, as I pointed out earlier, and two because the "legal" drugs will be regulated and taxed, and if you're caught bootlegging it your ass will go up federal.

You can't be serious.

Although liquor and cigarette bootlegging does in fact happen , how many dealers in those products are behind bars versus recreational drug offenders?

Lest we forget all people in prison for peripheral crimes involved in the drug trade, like gun running, knee-capping of rivals, drive-by shootings etcetera.
Far more than is generally known my friend. They don't have groups like norml exaggerating their numbers, however. The main point is, your recreational drug traffickers are doing state time, and not alot of it, and not just for trafficking, and the tax stamp violators are doing federal.

Again, no one is in prison just for possessing and/or smoking weed. They are there for other felony crimes, related to their drug situation or not. This is the myth I was addressing, that the "prisons are full of innocent, non violent weed smokers" and "if it were legalized it would solve the overcrowding problem" it's simply a lie.

I did a radio segment on this a couple of years ago, >clickme to listen.<

I think I have quite a liberal stance on this, as you'll no doubt hear.
 
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Far more than is generally known my friend. They don't have groups like norml exaggerating their numbers, however. The main point is, your recreational drug traffickers are doing state time, and not alot of it, and not just for trafficking, and the tax stamp violators are doing federal.

Again, no one is in prison just for possessing and/or smoking weed. They are there for other felony crimes, related to their drug situation or not. This is the myth I was addressing, that the "prisons are full of innocent, non violent weed smokers" and "if it were legalized it would solve the overcrowding problem" it's simply a lie.

I did a radio segment on this a couple of years ago, >clickme to listen.<

I think I have quite a liberal stance on this, as you'll no doubt hear.

In "three strikes" states, there certainly are people in prison for long stretches for merely smoking weed.

I get that the NORML numbers are greatly exaggerated, but there's practically no doubt that ending the stupid "war" on (some) drugs would g a long way to help ease prison overcrowding.
 
how long does it take for your wine to mature?

depends on what you are trying to make. some alcohol levels take longer to achieve. You could cycle through 10 gallons per month and be in a state of perpetual drunkenness. Or, maybe you'd rather make mead out of honey... or, any number of plant sugars available. I've seen a dandelion recipe. The craft isn't necessarily how much you can pump out so much as how good you can make different variations. And, really, wine lovers are no different when picking out a bottle.

so its not something that is sitting around for 10 or 20 years

you could keep something for that long if you are a badass vinter and make great bottles. But, no, generally your yield comes ready to drink after a few months. Again, it depends on what you are making. I think it's pretty cool how much longevity bottled do have though. If im not mistaken, there is a bottle from Thomas Jefferson's cellar is still floating around.

and all of this is just wine. People make great home brews too. I've yet to try my hand at beer but I know people who, i think, should start their own microbrew. You should check it out. I'm looking forward to those who make Fall Pumpkin beers, myself.
 
I haven't the first clue what a conservative would say in answer to you. I say, widgets are legal, marijuana is not. So it sort of takes the industrious, self-supportive part out of the equation. Same thing with organized crime -- they are industrious and self-supporting, but they're not legal.

Now, if you're going to legalize it then it will be taxed and regulated. That's just the nature of that beast. And as you said earlier, growing your own for personal use would be just fine, just like homebrew beer and wine. But selling it to folks, without a tax stamp, will land you in trouble with the feds eventually.



legality is nothing more than a matter of status. This can be changed. I disagree with your opinon. My evidence is the nature of the beer industry before, during and after prohibition. Budwieser and other brewers became heavy social contributors after alcohol became legal again. Tommy Chong is the same way.
 
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Far more than is generally known my friend. They don't have groups like norml exaggerating their numbers, however. The main point is, your recreational drug traffickers are doing state time, and not alot of it, and not just for trafficking, and the tax stamp violators are doing federal.

Again, no one is in prison just for possessing and/or smoking weed. They are there for other felony crimes, related to their drug situation or not. This is the myth I was addressing, that the "prisons are full of innocent, non violent weed smokers" and "if it were legalized it would solve the overcrowding problem" it's simply a lie.

I did a radio segment on this a couple of years ago, >clickme to listen.<

I think I have quite a liberal stance on this, as you'll no doubt hear.

In "three strikes" states, there certainly are people in prison for long stretches for merely smoking weed.
That's not a felony, therefore it doesn't count on "three strikes."
I get that the NORML numbers are greatly exaggerated, but there's practically no doubt that ending the stupid "war" on (some) drugs would go a long way to help ease prison overcrowding.
How do those two statements reconcile? If the numbers are greatly exaggerated, then legalizing marijuana would do little to ease overcrowding. Correct?

Keep in mind I'm sticking to just marijuana here.
 
depends on what you are trying to make. some alcohol levels take longer to achieve. You could cycle through 10 gallons per month and be in a state of perpetual drunkenness. Or, maybe you'd rather make mead out of honey... or, any number of plant sugars available. I've seen a dandelion recipe. The craft isn't necessarily how much you can pump out so much as how good you can make different variations. And, really, wine lovers are no different when picking out a bottle.

so its not something that is sitting around for 10 or 20 years

you could keep something for that long if you are a badass vinter and make great bottles. But, no, generally your yield comes ready to drink after a few months. Again, it depends on what you are making. I think it's pretty cool how much longevity bottled do have though. If im not mistaken, there is a bottle from Thomas Jefferson's cellar is still floating around.

and all of this is just wine. People make great home brews too. I've yet to try my hand at beer but I know people who, i think, should start their own microbrew. You should check it out. I'm looking forward to those who make Fall Pumpkin beers, myself.

im going to check into it
 

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