Law vs Lives

America Locked A Children’s Humanitarian Aid Worker In Gitmo For Seven Years

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Lakhdar Boumediene: "I left Algeria in 1990 to work abroad. In 1997 my family and I moved to Bosnia and Herzegovina at the request of my employer, the Red Crescent Society of the United Arab Emirates. I served in the Sarajevo office as director of humanitarian aid for children who had lost relatives to violence during the Balkan conflicts. In 1998, I became a Bosnian citizen. We had a good life, but all of that changed after 9/11.

When I arrived at work on the morning of Oct. 19, 2001, an intelligence officer was waiting for me. He asked me to accompany him to answer questions. I did so, voluntarily — but afterward I was told that I could not go home. The United States had demanded that local authorities arrest me and five other men. News reports at the time said the United States believed that I was plotting to blow up its embassy in Sarajevo. I had never — for a second — considered this."

Boumediene was not simply arrested and imprisoned for years despite no evidence that he was a terrorist, he was arrested while he was working as a humanitarian aide worker. For children. The man devoted his life to helping the youngest and most vulnerable victims of a terrible conflict, and we locked him up and tortured him.

Sadly, America still has not learned the lesson Justice Louis Brandeis tried to teach us 85 years ago: “Men feared witches and burnt women.”


That's his side of the story. You seem pretty quick to believe it, without hearing the other side of it. I do not believe people are locked up at Gitmo with no evidence, it may be that the evidence was wrong, maybe somebody fingered this guy to protect a guilty person. There is a review of that evidence in each case, to determine if the risk involved warrants detention.

Mistakes are made, no question. No system of justice is perfect, but we're talking about terrorists here, people that want to kill us by the hundreds or thousands. Which leads me back to the central question of the thread: do we follow the law even though many lives may be lost? Laws were created to protect us, their goal is to keep us safe in so far as possible. They are not an end unto themselves, what good are laws if everyone is dead?

Do you live under a rock, or are you just in denial?

Bush knew Guantánamo prisoners were innocent, former Colin Powell aide tells court

George W Bush knew that hundreds of detainees held at Guantánamo Bay were innocent - but covered the fact up for political reasons, a top former aide has told a U.S. court.

Retired Army Col. Lawrence B. Wilkerson, who served as chief of staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell, testified that officials 'knew that they had seized and were holding innocent men at Guantanamo Bay'.

'I discussed the issue of the Guantánamo detainees with Secretary Powell,' he said. 'I learnt that it was his view that it was not just Vice-President [Dick] Cheney and [Defense] Secretary [Donald] Rumsfeld, but also President Bush who was involved in all of the Guantánamo decision making.'

They simply refused to release them out of fear of political repercussions,' he continued.

Colonel Wilkerson heaped most of his criticism on the heads of of Mr Rumsfeld and Mr Cheney, saying they knew that the majority of the 742 detainees sent to Guantánamo in 2002 were not guilty of any crimes.

His assertion is understood to have been backed by General Powell, the Times has reported.

General Powell left the Bush administration in 2005 in anger over the false information that he unknowlingly used to make the case for the war in Iraq.

Parts of the document were quoted by the Associated Press, while further quotes - including the Bush quote - emerged in the Times, which said it had obtained a copy.

Read more: Bush, Cheney and Rumsfield knew Guantánamo prisoners were innocent, former White House aide tells court | Mail Online


Lawrence Wilkerson: Some Truths About Guantanamo Bay


Lawrence B. Wilkerson was chief of staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell and is chairman of the New America Foundation/U.S.-Cuba 21st Century Policy Initiative.


There are several dimensions to the debate over the U.S. prison facilities at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba that the media have largely missed and, thus, of which the American people are almost completely unaware. For that matter, few within the government who were not directly involved are aware either.

The first of these is the utter incompetence of the battlefield vetting in Afghanistan during the early stages of the U.S. operations there. Simply stated, no meaningful attempt at discrimination was made in-country by competent officials, civilian or military, as to who we were transporting to Cuba for detention and interrogation.

This was a factor of having too few troops in the combat zone, of the troops and civilians who were there having too few people trained and skilled in such vetting, and of the incredible pressure coming down from Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and others to "just get the bastards to the interrogators".

It did not help that poor U.S. policies such as bounty-hunting, a weak understanding of cultural tendencies, and an utter disregard for the fundamentals of jurisprudence prevailed as well (no blame in the latter realm should accrue to combat soldiers as this it not their bailiwick anyway).

The second dimension that is largely unreported is that several in the U.S. leadership became aware of this lack of proper vetting very early on and, thus, of the reality that many of the detainees were innocent of any substantial wrongdoing, had little intelligence value, and should be immediately released.

But to have admitted this reality would have been a black mark on their leadership from virtually day one of the so-called Global War on Terror and these leaders already had black marks enough: the dead in a field in Pennsylvania, in the ashes of the Pentagon, and in the ruins of the World Trade Towers. They were not about to admit to their further errors at Guantanamo Bay. Better to claim that everyone there was a hardcore terrorist, was of enduring intelligence value, and would return to jihad if released. I am very sorry to say that I believe there were uniformed military who aided and abetted these falsehoods, even at the highest levels of our armed forces.

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Are you aware that somewhere around 25 - 30% of the Gitmo detainees who were released have returned to the battlefield and are now actively engaged in shooting at our guys or trying to blow them up? Or are plotting terrorist acts against us?

Powell and those aligned with him have a hard-on for the Bush admin, perhaps with reason, I don't know. Unlike you however, I do not accept everything I reaf from somebody's opponents as gospel truth, nor do I try to denigrate or marginalize their posts by suggesting they are living under a rock or are living in denial. I try to keep an open mind, a concept that is obviously foreign to you.
 
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Are you aware that somewhere around 25 - 30% of the Gitmo detainees who were released have returned to the battlefield and are now actively engaged in shooting at our guys or trying to blow them up? Or are plotting terrorist acts against us?

Powell and those aligned with him have a hard-on for the Bush admin, perhaps with reason, I don't know. Unlike you however, I do not accept everything I reaf from somebody's opponents as gospel truth, nor do I try to denigrate or marginalize their posts by suggesting they are living under a rock or are living in denial. I try to keep an open mind, a concept that is obviously foreign to you.

Do you live under a rock, or are you just in denial?

It's been determined: denial.
 
Are you aware that somewhere around 25 - 30% of the Gitmo detainees who were released have returned to the battlefield and are now actively engaged in shooting at our guys or trying to blow them up? Or are plotting terrorist acts against us?

Powell and those aligned with him have a hard-on for the Bush admin, perhaps with reason, I don't know. Unlike you however, I do not accept everything I reaf from somebody's opponents as gospel truth, nor do I try to denigrate or marginalize their posts by suggesting they are living under a rock or are living in denial. I try to keep an open mind, a concept that is obviously foreign to you.

Do you live under a rock, or are you just in denial?

It's been determined: denial.


Determined by who? You? I shall give your opinion all the consideration it is due. There, done. Opinions by moronic ideologues just doesn't carry a whole lot of weight, sorry.
 
Isn't this the same Red Crescent society that allows their ambulances to be used as rolling bombs?
 
Are you aware that somewhere around 25 - 30% of the Gitmo detainees who were released have returned to the battlefield and are now actively engaged in shooting at our guys or trying to blow them up? Or are plotting terrorist acts against us?

Powell and those aligned with him have a hard-on for the Bush admin, perhaps with reason, I don't know. Unlike you however, I do not accept everything I reaf from somebody's opponents as gospel truth, nor do I try to denigrate or marginalize their posts by suggesting they are living under a rock or are living in denial. I try to keep an open mind, a concept that is obviously foreign to you.

Do you live under a rock, or are you just in denial?

It's been determined: denial.


Determined by who? You? I shall give your opinion all the consideration it is due. There, done. Opinions by moronic ideologues just doesn't carry a whole lot of weight, sorry.

You mean determined by 'whom'...

A good man with a conscience:
Lawrence B. "Larry" Wilkerson (15 June 1945), retired United States Army Colonel and former chief of staff to United States Secretary of State Colin Powell.

All that's necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke
 
The problem is...20% of the guys released from Gitmo have gone back to being terrorists. That's the percent they really know of. Any of those 20% could be here in the US. Or maybe they were the ones that killed you're loved ones in Iraq or Afghanistan. How many REALLY want to take a chance on this???

More Ex-Gitmo Prisoners Back At Killing Americans - HUMAN EVENTS

Without a doubt, the biggest danger to America is the thousands of new terrorists created BY our treatment of Muslims at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib.

Matthew Alexander:

I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq. The large majority of suicide bombings in Iraq are still carried out by these foreigners. They are also involved in most of the attacks on U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq. It's no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001. How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me -- unless you don't count American soldiers as Americans.

Matthew Alexander led an interrogations team assigned to a Special Operations task force in Iraq in 2006 where he led the interrogations team that located Abu Musab al Zarqawi, the former leader of Al Qaida in Iraq, who was killed by Coalition Forces. Alexander was awarded the Bronze Star for his achievements.
 
The problem is...20% of the guys released from Gitmo have gone back to being terrorists. That's the percent they really know of. Any of those 20% could be here in the US. Or maybe they were the ones that killed you're loved ones in Iraq or Afghanistan. How many REALLY want to take a chance on this???

More Ex-Gitmo Prisoners Back At Killing Americans - HUMAN EVENTS

Without a doubt, the biggest danger to America is the thousands of new terrorists created BY our treatment of Muslims at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib.

Matthew Alexander:

I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq. The large majority of suicide bombings in Iraq are still carried out by these foreigners. They are also involved in most of the attacks on U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq. It's no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001. How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me -- unless you don't count American soldiers as Americans.

Matthew Alexander led an interrogations team assigned to a Special Operations task force in Iraq in 2006 where he led the interrogations team that located Abu Musab al Zarqawi, the former leader of Al Qaida in Iraq, who was killed by Coalition Forces. Alexander was awarded the Bronze Star for his achievements.


Much as I appreciate Mr Alexander's opinion and thank him for his service, what he's saying is absolute bullshit. Only a fucking moron or a complete ideologue can possibly believe that terrorists do what they do because of Gitmo. We do not abuse detainees, those guys actually live much better at Gitmo than they ever did before. And the number of US soliers or civilians who have died as a result of our so-called torture policy is exactly ZERO.
 
Yeah, everybody loves a good pair of handcuffs and a hood over their head. Living better than they ever have? That is quite a statement. I'm not one to defend suicide bombers, but I would say Americans really need to get out of the business of defining "how to live" for other cultures.?
 
Yeah, everybody loves a good pair of handcuffs and a hood over their head. Living better than they ever have? That is quite a statement. I'm not one to defend suicide bombers, but I would say Americans really need to get out of the business of defining "how to live" for other cultures.?

So.....I'm going to assume you've been there and know how they are living???
 
Yeah, everybody loves a good pair of handcuffs and a hood over their head. Living better than they ever have? That is quite a statement. I'm not one to defend suicide bombers, but I would say Americans really need to get out of the business of defining "how to live" for other cultures.?

So.....I'm going to assume you've been there and know how they are living???

My God, you right wingers wail oppression if a city takes toys out of Happy Meals.
 
Yeah, everybody loves a good pair of handcuffs and a hood over their head. Living better than they ever have? That is quite a statement. I'm not one to defend suicide bombers, but I would say Americans really need to get out of the business of defining "how to live" for other cultures.?

So.....I'm going to assume you've been there and know how they are living???

I'm sure it's everything I could dream of. How much is a weekend package? We could go on vacation together.
 
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Yeah, everybody loves a good pair of handcuffs and a hood over their head. Living better than they ever have? That is quite a statement. I'm not one to defend suicide bombers, but I would say Americans really need to get out of the business of defining "how to live" for other cultures.?

So.....I'm going to assume you've been there and know how they are living???

My God, you right wingers wail oppression if a city takes toys out of Happy Meals.

According to wiseacre, they're not being punished, they are living better than they ever have. Carlito says I must go there to see how good they are living.lol
 
Yeah, everybody loves a good pair of handcuffs and a hood over their head. Living better than they ever have? That is quite a statement. I'm not one to defend suicide bombers, but I would say Americans really need to get out of the business of defining "how to live" for other cultures.?

So.....I'm going to assume you've been there and know how they are living???

I'm sure it's everything I could dream of. How much is a weekend package? We could go on vacation together.

What a great idea!!! Lol!
But i said this because you seem to know how "awful" they are living. I'm sure it's not great...but it can't be as bad as how they treat our soldiers when they're captured. If released, at least 25% of them will go right back to their terrorism. I wouldn't want to take that chance...maybe one of them will be the one that kills my son (or yours) when he's deployed. There was a reason they were captured and put there....i would want to make damn sure whoever they release are not going to leave and kill more people.
 
Lives are worth more than laws you say? That sounds like the motto of drug dealers I used to know in explaining their behavior when it come to feeding their children.


C'mon dude, there's a big difference between upholding the law for drug dealers and keeping terrorists in Gitmo without a trial.

Fear mongering is so Bush era Sport. Lots of things kill people. You should be more concerned with automobiles and dangerous conditions in the home... or lightning...,accidental drowning,.....forgetting to take prescribed meds..or drug and alcohol abuse.

Now that it is darn near impossible to hyjack an airplane and we know that the real reason the 9/11 guys succeded was ineptitude on the part of the FBI, CIA and the State department... you should try to scare everyone with something more practical....like drunk drivers....which have killed a couple hundred thousand Americans since 9/11..I mean if you are really concerned about Americans un-neccessarily dying violent deaths.

Fear mongering ? :lol: this is so liberal.
 
So it's fearmongering to be concerned over terrorist attempts to kill hundreds or thousands of innocent Americans? I see no reason to increase the odds any, but that's just my opinion.

Maybe you should address the central question of the thread: laws are created by a society to protect it's citizens. Some limits may need to be in place for security reasons. If the tradeoff is denying a person due process vs a bunch of dead Americans, I'd rather save lives.

In a word...yes.

Our maximum security prisons located all over the continental U S are totally capable of holding dangerous people. I for one had had enough fear mongering by 10/11. But that's just me. There will always be reasons for the frightened among our population to be persuaded to throw away rights for perceived safety.

Benjamin Franklin had cowardly punks like D*ick Cheney in mind when he
said that those who trade liberty for SAFETY deserve neither liberty nor safety


I think people misunderstand that quote. It is not only that they do not deserve it, how can you ever be safe if you have no rights?

I guess a person should not be hanging out with terrorists.

What happens to a person who is just along for the ride and his friend goes in and robs a store and he remains in the car ?
 
So.....I'm going to assume you've been there and know how they are living???

I'm sure it's everything I could dream of. How much is a weekend package? We could go on vacation together.

What a great idea!!! Lol!
But i said this because you seem to know how "awful" they are living. I'm sure it's not great...but it can't be as bad as how they treat our soldiers when they're captured. If released, at least 25% of them will go right back to their terrorism. I wouldn't want to take that chance...maybe one of them will be the one that kills my son (or yours) when he's deployed. There was a reason they were captured and put there....i would want to make damn sure whoever they release are not going to leave and kill more people.

I was only cracking a joke when wiseacre said being in prison was the best they had ever lived. We live good but we, as Americans, need to stop assuming other cultures want to live like us. You can't force a hoarder to clean, no what I mean?
 
I'm sure it's everything I could dream of. How much is a weekend package? We could go on vacation together.

What a great idea!!! Lol!
But i said this because you seem to know how "awful" they are living. I'm sure it's not great...but it can't be as bad as how they treat our soldiers when they're captured. If released, at least 25% of them will go right back to their terrorism. I wouldn't want to take that chance...maybe one of them will be the one that kills my son (or yours) when he's deployed. There was a reason they were captured and put there....i would want to make damn sure whoever they release are not going to leave and kill more people.

I was only cracking a joke when wiseacre said being in prison was the best they had ever lived. We live good but we, as Americans, need to stop assuming other cultures want to live like us. You can't force a hoarder to clean, no what I mean?

I'm not a betting man, but I'd wager that most of those detainees are better off in Gitmo than they were wherever they came from. 3 squares, clean clothes, no worries about getting shot or blown up, plenty of like-minded friends? No goats or sheep though, so their sex life must be somewhat limited, but other than that not so bad.
 
I think they are waiting for sex in the afterlife. The virgins on earth aren't good enough for them. They gotta blow themselves up to get a date. Maybe we should give them grenades for lunch and answer their prayers for them.
 

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