Last year Va Assembly rejected all gun-carry permits for VaTech

[Little-Acorn]

In many states, you can get a permit to carrry a concealed weapon if you abide by certain conditions. You have to have a clean criminal background, i.e. no past criminal history. You have to be mentally competent. You have to take a firearms safety course, and in some state repeat that course yearly. If you qualify in all these things, you can get a permit to carry a weapon. This can come in handy when someone starts selecting people in a classroom and shooting them in the head for no apparent reason.

It is also nice to have such permits available, when some whacko is contemplating someday lining up people and shooting them in the head. He may notice that laws permitting ordinary law-abiding citizens to carry, exist where he wants to do his thing. And he may realize that, if he takes any time at all to get through 32 people (plus 28 wounded), chances are that SOMEONE will have a gun nearby... and he won't know where. He obviously isn't afraid of dying, and even intends to die... but not before doing his thing and killing a dozen or three of his fellow men.

But here he will see that he's pretty unlikely to be able to make whatever insane statement he wanted to make before getting suddenly dead, a lot sooner than he intended. This may affect his planning, or even get him to take up another line of work. IF the laws permit qualified, law-abiding people to carry concealed weapons where he is.

If they had permitted qualified, law-abiding people to carrry on campus, probably most people wouldn't bother anyway. But a few probably would - they already found one guy who was one of those qualified, law-abiding people who did carry on campus, and they busted him for it.

But last year, when a bill was presented to the Virginia Assembly to allow qualified people to carry a concealed weapon on campuses including Virginia Tech, the Assembly never even let it onto the floor for a vote. They killed it in committee. And so law-abiding people, no matter how responsible and carful, were forbidden to carry concealed weapons on campus. Some legislator even boasted that he would feel safer on campus because of it.

As today's assassin moved from room to room, shooting people literally for hours while NO ONE HAD THE ABILITY TO STOP HIM, I wonder if any of the soon-to-be-victims wished that that other student who got busted for exercising his legal concealed-carry permit, was there to help.

Looks like the Virgina Assembly killed more than just a bill that day.

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http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/wb/xp-50658

Gun bill gets shot down by panel - Roanoke.com

Roanoke.com
January 31, 2006
Greg Esposito

A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly.

The bill was proposed by Del. Todd Gilbert, R-Shenandoah County, on behalf of the Virginia Citizens Defense League. Gilbert was unavailable Monday and spokesman Gary Frink would not comment on the bill's defeat other than to say the issue was dead for this General Assembly session.

Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

Last spring a Virginia Tech student was disciplined for bringing a handgun to class, despite having a concealed handgun permit. Some gun owners questioned the university's authority, while the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police came out against the presence of guns on campus.

 

[maineman]

so you are suggesting that the way to combat this sort of violence is for every student on campus to be packing heat?

yeah....that sounds like a great idea. I wonder if that works at the high school level as well...middle school?

 

[Little-Acorn]

Would anyone like to comment, who actually read what I wrote?

 

[maineman]

Would anyone like to comment, who actually read what I wrote?

I did...you are suggesting that law abiding students carry concealed weapons on campus.

I think that is insane.

 

[Vintij]

I read what you wrote but was under the impression that you are FOR concealed weapons for students on campus? Or are you for weapons for campus security? You must be more clear. If you are for weapons for campus security, i agree. If you are for the right of students to carry weapons on campus, I completely dissagree and would call that notion a dangerous one, and anyone who agrees with it (along with Todd Gilbert) to competely lack any sense of logic and intellegence beyond that of a jr high drop out who plays too much Grand Theft Auto.

 

[Little-Acorn]

(sigh) Please read the first and fourth paragraphs of my OP, then get back to me.

 

[Vintij]

(sigh) Please read the first and fourth paragraphs of my OP, then get back to me.

I understand where you are coming from but this idea would not help anyone. Your not taking into account accidental deaths due to guns, trigger happy guys full of angst, drunk students who pull out a gun to show off, there is too much testocerone in college to allow anyone, (even if they have a clean record) To have the right to carry a gun, and ultimately the right to choose who dies. That authority should go only to police and campus security. It is not a students obligation to protect anyone, and with a gun in the right or wrong hands, people will get shot period. How can you be for concealed weapons on campus? What do guns have to do with education? Whats to stop a guy (hypothetically speaking) getting beat up at a bar on sunday, and then walk into a dorm the next day and shoot up the guys who beat him up along with innocent bystandards? Whats to stop a non-law abiding student from stealing a concealed weapon from a law abiding student? Whats to stop violence with more violence? You are not thinking with you head. Violence does not stop violence. What about the 364 days that someone does not shoot up a school, sure the gun comes in handy for one day. Then the rest of the year we are adding up the pile of gun related incidents and injurys.

Preschoolers have more logic than that, Infact why dont we let pre schoolers have guns as well? Or high school kids at columbine in colorado? Lots of high schoolers dont have criminal records, and are over 18, and are law abiding. Infact did Eric Harris have a criminal record? No, but that didnt stop him from murdering 13 people.

 

[Shogun]

Id be curious to know if the shooter was, before today, considered a qualified, law abiding citizen with no criminal background before making grand assumptions that are neither here nor there. I do agree that private law abiding citizens shouldbe allowed to carry guns... but im not sure that students at a university is quite the same thing any more than any other government location that prohibits personal weapons despite conceal and carry laws.

Id probably wait for more details before grandstanding and using this to further an agenda.

 

[Little-Acorn]

If there had been even a few people among the thousands on that campus, carrying weapons, the shooter would not have gone on shooting for HOURS as he did and killed 32 people. No matter what his angst level, inebriation, testosterone, or any of the other excuses people use to prevent responsible, law-abiding people from defending themselves.

Gotta hand it to the Virginia Assembly. They managed to produce 100% perfection: Among all those thousands, there was not ONE WEAPON in the hands of ANY of the law-abiding, responsible people there. Not one. The Virginia Assembly couldn't have given the shooter a safer venue to pull off this massacre, if they tried.

I'm assuming they didn't try, of course.

 

[Annie]

If there had been even a few people among the thousands on that campus, carrying weapons, the shooter would not have gone on shooting for HOURS as he did and killed 32 people. No matter what his angst level, inebriation, testosterone, or any of the other excuses people use to prevent responsible, law-abiding people from defending themselves.

Gotta hand it to the Virginia Assembly. They managed to produce 100% perfection: Among all those thousands, there was not ONE WEAPON in the hands of ANY of the law-abiding, responsible people there. Not one. The Virginia Assembly couldn't have given the shooter a safer venue to pull off this massacre, if they tried.

I'm assuming they didn't try, of course.

While I have reservations like the above with many of our students at the college level, I must say that I noticed quite a few uniformed students, (ROTC?) being hustled out with the throngs. I can't see where those would have not been armed, along with the security police.

 

[Little-Acorn]

While I have reservations like the above with many of our students at the college level, I must say that I noticed quite a few uniformed students, (ROTC?) being hustled out with the throngs. I can't see where those would have not been armed, along with the security police.

Have you seen any evidence that they were armed?

From what I've heard, NO students were allowed to carry, nor faculty.

It's a typical practice that even when ROTC students practiced with weapons, those weapons were taken afterward, inventoried, and locked up in an armory or other such place.

To make the campus safer, dont'cha know.

Worked like a charm, didn't it?

 

[Bern80]

I did...you are suggesting that law abiding students carry concealed weapons on campus.

I think that is insane.

Why would it be insane of they are law abidding?

 

[Bern80]

While I have reservations like the above with many of our students at the college level, I must say that I noticed quite a few uniformed students, (ROTC?) being hustled out with the throngs. I can't see where those would have not been armed, along with the security police.

Most college ROTCs including the one I was at don't have guns or really anything to do with them while actually on campus

 

[Emmett]

I did...you are suggesting that law abiding students carry concealed weapons on campus.

I think that is insane.

So it is much better that they be killed. Right?

 

[Annie]

Have you seen any evidence that they were armed?

From what I've heard, NO students were allowed to carry, nor faculty.

It's a typical practice that even when ROTC students practiced with weapons, those weapons were taken afterward, inventoried, and locked up in an armory or other such place.

To make the campus safer, dont'cha know.

Worked like a charm, didn't it?

No, that was my point. Seems they should be able to be armed, if they choose to be.

My take on concealed carry, it should be legal all over. I might choose never to own a gun, but no one knows who is and isn't armed. I do know if anyone else had a gun, that guy could not have just thrown chains on the door and kept shooting and reloading at will.

 

[Vintij]

As i said before, this was a student that was carrying a concealed weapon who massacerd all these people. The same thing you people are for. Not to mention he chained the doors shut before he did it, meaning that if anyone was to be a hero, it would have to be the students inside the classroom!! Your for guns inside the classroom!!!?!?!?! Good luck getting that to pass. Kathianne i thought you had more sense? Does anyone agree that to argue for concealed weapons on campus and in the classroom is ridiculess?

 

[Bern80]

As i said before, this was a student that was carrying a concealed weapon who massacerd all these people. The same thing you people are for.

So your carefully reasoned response is that no one should be allowed to carry a concealed weapon?

The same thing I am for? Get real. I am for people haveing the ability to protect themselves from danger. Not for arming psychopaths. If you can't see the distinction then you're pretty much hopeless

 

[maineman]

So your carefully reasoned response is that no one should be allowed to carry a concealed weapon?

The same thing I am for? Get real. I am for people haveing the ability to protect themselves from danger. Not for arming psychopaths. If you can't see the distinction then you're pretty much hopeless

I am for keeping concealed weapons out of classrooms and off of campuses

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

I understand where you are coming from but this idea would not help anyone. Your not taking into account accidental deaths due to guns, trigger happy guys full of angst, drunk students who pull out a gun to show off, there is too much testocerone in college to allow anyone, (even if they have a clean record) To have the right to carry a gun, and ultimately the right to choose who dies. That authority should go only to police and campus security. It is not a students obligation to protect anyone, and with a gun in the right or wrong hands, people will get shot period.

No, in fact the number of crimes and accidents comitted with guns owned by people with concealed-carry permits is incredibly low. Furthermore, if we break down crime stats on a county-by-county basis across the US, we can see that areas with the highest numbers of guns have the lowest crime rates. Thus the title of John Lott's book, "More Guns, Less Crime".

How can you be for concealed weapons on campus?

Because sometimes, a nutball will go on a rampage and kill lots of people.

Interesting side note, have you noticed how often this occurs at gun-free zones like schools? One of Lott's more interesting findings (IIRC) was that government-decreed gun-free zones, like schools, tend to be magnets for mass killers, compared to surrounding areas.

Whats to stop a guy (hypothetically speaking) getting beat up at a bar on sunday, and then walk into a dorm the next day and shoot up the guys who beat him up along with innocent bystandards? Whats to stop a non-law abiding student from stealing a concealed weapon from a law abiding student?

Answer #1: Nothing, really. Like of like now.
Answer #2: The possibility that the other person has a gun.

Whats to stop violence with more violence? You are not thinking with you head. Violence does not stop violence.

Yes it does. In fact, it stops all sorts of things, like breathing for instance. That's why the police carry guns. If the perpetrator had not taken his own life, the SWAT team would have ventilated his cranium in short order.

Preschoolers have more logic than that, Infact why dont we let pre schoolers have guns as well? Or high school kids at columbine in colorado? Lots of high schoolers dont have criminal records, and are over 18, and are law abiding. Infact did Eric Harris have a criminal record? No, but that didnt stop him from murdering 13 people.

You don't let preschoolers have guns because they are too dangerous and will hurt someone. Permitting young adults to carry will not lead to toddlers packing heat, that's what we call a "slippery slope fallacy". I should also probably point out that lots of young kids, currently and in years past, are familiar with how to use a gun without hurting people. If they can do it, young adults can do it.

The Columbine killers broke a big law when they carried guns on to campus. (Holy shit, the law didn't stop them??) They also broke quite a few laws when they started shooting people.

 

[hjmick]

Infact did Eric Harris have a criminal record? No, but that didnt stop him from murdering 13 people.

In March 1998, Jefferson County Sheriff's Office investigator Michael Guerra looked at Harris' website after the parents of Brooks Brown, a fellow student of Harris and Klebold, discovered Harris was making threats aimed at their son following a falling out between them. Guerra wrote a draft affidavit for a search warrant, but the affidavit was never filed. This information was not revealed to the public until September 2001 by 60 Minutes, though it was known by the police the entire time.

Harris and Klebold got into trouble with the law early for breaking into a locked van and stealing tools. In January 1998, they were charged with mischief, breaking and entering, trespassing and theft. Eric and Dylan left a good impression on the juvenile officers, who offered to delete the boys' criminal records if they agreed to attend a diversionary program to serve community service, receive pyschiatric treatment, and stay out of trouble. Eric was forced to attend anger management classes where, again, he made a good impression. They were so well-behaved that their probation officer discharged them from the program a few months earlier than the due date. Of Eric, it was remarked that he was "a very bright individual who is likely to succeed in life," while Dylan was said to be intelligent, but "needs to understand that hard work is part of fulfilling a dream."

The two made a video for a school project that showed them pretending to shoot fake guns and "snuffing" students in the hallway of their school as "Hitmen for Hire". They both displayed themes of violence in their creative writing projects for school; his teacher said of a Doom-based tale by Harris, written on January 17, 1999, "Yours is a unique approach and your writing works in a gruesome way - good details and mood setting."