Khalid Sheik Mohammed: "I Gave A Lot Of False Information" To Make Torture Stop

[PubliusInfinitum]

Khalid Sheik Mohammed: "I Gave A Lot Of False Information" To Make Torture Stop

For all the attention that the Bush administration torture memos have been receiving over past month, those documents pale in comparison to the revelations documented in the leaked 40-page report issued by the International Committee for the Red Cross following two rounds of private interviews it held with the 14 "high value detainees" held at Guantanamo Bay.

If you want to know what our country did to those detainees -- especially Khalid Sheik Mohammed, Abu Zubaydah, and Rahim al-Nashiri (all three were waterboarded and suffered the worst treatment) -- then read the Red Cross report. It will leave you with a very sickening feeling about the depths to which President Bush and Vice President Cheney were willing to go to try to justify its disastrous war in Iraq (while the detainees were providing ample information during FBI interrogations about the 9/11 plot, the torture apparently began as they sought evidence about the non-existent al-Qaida/Iraq link) and how we morphed into the very monsters that we once condemned when it came to the actions of other nations.

http://www.politicalbase.com/

History shows, repeatedly, that the only thing torture reliably produces is false confessions.

Really? Then you're prepared, of course, to demonstrate this to be a fact.

We're going to need you to list the full history of 'torture'; wherein you will provide the full and complete list of truths; the correlated items from that list which were being sought by those who were implementing "torture" and the lies which resulted from them, which you will, of course, be demonstrably distinct from the list of truths.

And where you're unable to do so for any reason, your concession that this position is thus demonstrated to be false, with you having proven that you KNEW IT TO BE FALSE WHEN YOU ADVANCED IT, establishing that your purpose FOR ADVANCING IT was DECEIT, will be wholly and immutably established; even where such is not already WELL ESTABLISHED.

And THAT kids is all there is to refuting a leftist myth...

 

[sealybobo]

Khalid Sheik Mohammed: "I Gave A Lot Of False Information" To Make Torture Stop

For all the attention that the Bush administration torture memos have been receiving over past month, those documents pale in comparison to the revelations documented in the leaked 40-page report issued by the International Committee for the Red Cross following two rounds of private interviews it held with the 14 "high value detainees" held at Guantanamo Bay.

If you want to know what our country did to those detainees -- especially Khalid Sheik Mohammed, Abu Zubaydah, and Rahim al-Nashiri (all three were waterboarded and suffered the worst treatment) -- then read the Red Cross report. It will leave you with a very sickening feeling about the depths to which President Bush and Vice President Cheney were willing to go to try to justify its disastrous war in Iraq (while the detainees were providing ample information during FBI interrogations about the 9/11 plot, the torture apparently began as they sought evidence about the non-existent al-Qaida/Iraq link) and how we morphed into the very monsters that we once condemned when it came to the actions of other nations.

http://www.politicalbase.com/

History shows, repeatedly, that the only thing torture reliably produces is false confessions.

Really? Then you're prepared, of course, to demonstrate this to be a fact.

We're going to need you to list the full history of 'torture'; wherein you will provide the full and complete list of truths; the correlated items from that list which were being sought by those who were implementing "torture" and the lies which resulted from them, which you will, of course, be demonstrably distinct from the list of truths.

And where you're unable to do so for any reason, your concession that this position is thus demonstrated to be false, with you having proven that you KNEW IT TO BE FALSE WHEN YOU ADVANCED IT, establishing that your purpose FOR ADVANCING IT was DECEIT, will be wholly and immutably established; even where such is not already WELL ESTABLISHED.

And THAT kids is all there is to refuting a leftist myth...

You sound like an OJ defender. Come on. Give it up. They're guilty. They lied, about everything. Do we really have to prove EVERY lie?

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

We now know that we outsourced torture to Blackwater.

ROFLMNAO... "outsourced torture'... You can't operate above the cliche can ya sis?

We know that the owner/CEO of Blackwater was a big Bush supporter, but damn did the Bush administration give this company A LOT of business. They even work down in New Orleans tormenting the citizens of Louisiana.

Golly... Supporters of BUSH? What shall we ever do to resolve this?

And now we know that torture didn't work.

Actually, we know it worked perfectly... as it always does.

Soufan told lawmakers that he and fellow agents went "by the book" and gained actionable intelligence from Zubaydah by standard "informed interrogation" methods. Later, when the CIA's privately contracted interrogators took over the questioning, using techniques such as waterboarding, or controlled drowning, Zubaydah "shut down" and stopped giving good information, Soufan said.

Oh my... "Soufan" said it? Well there ya have it... Soufan said it so it HAS to be true... just EXCATLY as he said it...

Of course to believe that... we have to believe that Soufan said exactly what you claim he said; that he sat across the table, asked questions; the terrorists answered willingly, openly and truthfully... giving up every trace of his understanding; which then gave cause to use much more stressful techniques in the interrogation of this individual... because, well... they COULD, I suppose... where this otherwise PERFECTlY COOPERATIVE INFORMANT simply chose to endure that stress and stop his previously full and unfettered cooperation.

Well that makes PERFECT SENSE... I mean sure... 'ask me nice and I'll tell you everything you want to know... but subject me to stress and I'm not going to tell you ANYTHING!'

Oh! Well VIOLA! THAT'S IT! THAT'S WHERE WE'VE GONE WRONG! We should try that across the board...

WHY HAVEN'T WE THOUGHT OF THIS BEFORE? These are CLEARLY, REASONABLE MEN!

Here we are transporting hundreds of thousands of troops and operators ALL OVER THE WORLD to rain mayhem and death on theses men, who, if what we have learned from Bobo is true... are reasonable men of great strength of character, nearly superhuman in their characters... who will readily tell us anyhting we need to know, to help us out... as long as we ask them nice... and behave according to the rules of civility and commity... and who if we do NOT, will endure intense stress, decieve us and just 'shut down' instead of simply remaining cooperative as had been their history...

If we just ASK THEM NICE to stop slaughtering innocent people, HELL! Let's send Soufan to ask them, 'cause he speaks their language... and make sure he takes 'THE BOOK' ... so he can ask them 'by that book', given it's effectiveness... then they will no doubt SIMPLY STOP fighting the war they started...

BRILLIANT BOBO!

Now how long have you known about this?

WHY DIDN'T YOU COME OUT WITH THIS SOONER?

Imagine the number of lives you could have SAVED and the pain and MISERY you could have stopped...

MAN...

Look BOBO, when you get this kind of info... it is CRITICAL that you make it public RIGHT AWAY... we've wasted HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND TENS IF NOT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF LIVES... fighting a war against people who just want to be asked nice...

You're a GREAT AMERICAN...

(Shhhhhhhhhhhh... now everyone just nod your heads knowingly and just ease towards the door... NO EYE CONTACT! Last one out LOCK THAT DOOR and someone call the crackle farm... and tell them "Lucy is in Town; tell Ricky to come a runnin'")

 

[sealybobo]

We now know that we outsourced torture to Blackwater.

ROFLMNAO... "outsourced torture'... You can't operate above the cliche can ya sis?

We know that the owner/CEO of Blackwater was a big Bush supporter, but damn did the Bush administration give this company A LOT of business. They even work down in New Orleans tormenting the citizens of Louisiana.

Golly... Supporters of BUSH? What shall we ever do to resolve this?

And now we know that torture didn't work.

Actually, we know it worked perfectly... as it always does.

Soufan told lawmakers that he and fellow agents went "by the book" and gained actionable intelligence from Zubaydah by standard "informed interrogation" methods. Later, when the CIA's privately contracted interrogators took over the questioning, using techniques such as waterboarding, or controlled drowning, Zubaydah "shut down" and stopped giving good information, Soufan said.

Oh my... "Soufan" said it? Well there ya have it... Soufan said it so it HAS to be true... just EXCATLY as he said it...

Of course to believe that... we have to believe that Soufan said exactly what you claim he said; that he sat across the table, asked questions; the terrorists answered willingly, openly and truthfully... giving up every trace of his understanding; which then gave cause to use much more stressful techniques in the interrogation of this individual... because, well... they COULD, I suppose... where this otherwise PERFECTlY COOPERATIVE INFORMANT simply chose to endure that stress and stop his previously full and unfettered cooperation.

Well that makes PERFECT SENSE... I mean sure... 'ask me nice and I'll tell you everything you want to know... but subject me to stress and I'm not going to tell you ANYTHING!'

Oh! Well VIOLA! THAT'S IT! THAT'S WHERE WE'VE GONE WRONG! We should try that across the board...

WHY HAVEN'T WE THOUGHT OF THIS BEFORE? These are CLEARLY, REASONABLE MEN!

Here we are transporting hundreds of thousands of troops and operators ALL OVER THE WORLD to rain mayhem and death on theses men, who, if what we have learned from Bobo is true... are reasonable men of great strength of character, nearly superhuman in their characters... who will readily tell us anyhting we need to know, to help us out... as long as we ask them nice... and behave according to the rules of civility and commity... and who if we do NOT, will endure intense stress, decieve us and just 'shut down' instead of simply remaining cooperative as had been their history...

If we just ASK THEM NICE to stop slaughtering innocent people, HELL! Let's send Soufan to ask them, 'cause he speaks their language... and make sure he takes 'THE BOOK' ... so he can ask them 'by that book', given it's effectiveness... then they will no doubt SIMPLY STOP fighting the war they started...

BRILLIANT BOBO!

Now how long have you known about this?

WHY DIDN'T YOU COME OUT WITH THIS SOONER?

Imagine the number of lives you could have SAVED and the pain and MISERY you could have stopped...

MAN...

Look BOBO, when you get this kind of info... it is CRITICAL that you make it public RIGHT AWAY... we've wasted HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND TENS IF NOT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF LIVES... fighting a war against people who just want to be asked nice...

You're a GREAT AMERICAN...

(Shhhhhhhhhhhh... now everyone just nod your heads knowingly and just ease towards the door... NO EYE CONTACT! Last one out LOCK THAT DOOR and someone call the crackle farm... and tell them "Lucy is in Town; tell Ricky to come a runnin'")

You can scream just as loud as the people who protested outside the courtroom for OJ did. Doesn't make the Bush admin any less guilty or you any less wrong.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

History shows, repeatedly, that the only thing torture reliably produces is false confessions.

Really? Then you're prepared, of course, to demonstrate this to be a fact.

We're going to need you to list the full history of 'torture'; wherein you will provide the full and complete list of truths; the correlated items from that list which were being sought by those who were implementing "torture" and the lies which resulted from them, which you will, of course, be demonstrably distinct from the list of truths.

And where you're unable to do so for any reason, your concession that this position is thus demonstrated to be false, with you having proven that you KNEW IT TO BE FALSE WHEN YOU ADVANCED IT, establishing that your purpose FOR ADVANCING IT was DECEIT, will be wholly and immutably established; even where such is not already WELL ESTABLISHED.

And THAT kids is all there is to refuting a leftist myth...

You sound like an OJ defender. Come on. Give it up. They're guilty. They lied, about everything. Do we really have to prove EVERY lie?

Silly bobo... Of COURSE NOT! All you have to prove is the TRUTH which they possessed, establish that they knew this truth and show that they lied when they weren't being asked nice...

Which shouldn't be that difficult... because in your above position you informed us that these men were GUSHING information to those interrogators who asked them nice... so just go back to that file... which won't be hard to find, because it has to be HUGE; because its stuffed with TRUTHFULL answers to all the nice questions...

'So how ya doin'? ' Fine... '

Whatdja have for Breakfast?' A lovely piece of naan, some fresh chikpeas and a delightful samosa...'

"Are your accomodations acceptable?" "Well the flat panel is a little small, and they had me out last night, asking me these questions and I missed "The Unit" but I DVR'd it, so it's no big deal... It's just that my Cousin is in this episode; he drives a taxi in Cairo and plays an informant for Snake Doctor... who ends up slaughtering his family and torturing their corpses for kicks... so if we could wrap this up; I'd like to get back to the room and order up a little noche..' before I watch it... Plus, Will and Grace come on at 11:00 and I'm out of memory, so I can't record that one until I erase something, and it SO hard to choose... you know..."

Of course... I do the same thing with CSI and Dancing with the Stars... I lost two episodes when I was deployed last months, due to memory and I am still a little torched over that one...

"Torched?" Are you threatening me? 'Cause if you are, I'll stop being cooperative RIGHT NOW, MISTER!

NO no... Of course not, I was just saying... Well, tell ya what, lets get you back to your suite and we'll pick this up after lunch...

Oh... After Lunch? Yeaaaaaahhh... Here's the thing... I've got some letters to write and Abdul over in D-block sent a note, he wants to get together... then there's prayer at 6:00... Soooo... how's Tuesday, arooound... looks like I'm free after 10:00?

Tuesday at 10:00 then... sounds good... and on behalf of the government of the United States... I'd like to thank you for your continued cooperation...

Oh no problem... we're all reasonable men; these things happen... and you can count on me to tell you everything you need to know, just as I have this morning... as long as you continue to behave as a civilized man and do not threaten me with Torture...

Oh I apologize again... I was just... well, It won't happen again... We're all professionals here and you're exactly right, there's simply no excuse for that kind of behavior...

.
.
.
.
So you can see that THAT file would be ENORMOUS after a few weeks of that mind bending banter...

Just grab that file, cull the 'truths' and correlate them to the lies they told under stress techniques and just show us where the TORTURE... produced lies against what you know to be the TRUTH...

I mean I'm SURE you have that already, as that is what you'd need to make the TRUTHFUL assertion that 'Torture NEVER PRODUCES ANYTHING BUT LIES... ' anything less and you're just... well.. LYIN'....

Just hit your notes there and make us privy to the good parts...

 

[sealybobo]

Really? Then you're prepared, of course, to demonstrate this to be a fact.

We're going to need you to list the full history of 'torture'; wherein you will provide the full and complete list of truths; the correlated items from that list which were being sought by those who were implementing "torture" and the lies which resulted from them, which you will, of course, be demonstrably distinct from the list of truths.

And where you're unable to do so for any reason, your concession that this position is thus demonstrated to be false, with you having proven that you KNEW IT TO BE FALSE WHEN YOU ADVANCED IT, establishing that your purpose FOR ADVANCING IT was DECEIT, will be wholly and immutably established; even where such is not already WELL ESTABLISHED.

And THAT kids is all there is to refuting a leftist myth...

You sound like an OJ defender. Come on. Give it up. They're guilty. They lied, about everything. Do we really have to prove EVERY lie?

Silly bobo... Of COURSE NOT! All you have to prove is the TRUTH which they possessed, establish that they knew this truth and show that they lied when they weren't being asked nice...

Which shouldn't be that difficult... because in your above position you informed us that these men were GUSHING information to those interrogators who asked them nice... so just go back to that file... which won't be hard to find, because it has to be HUGE; because its stuffed with TRUTHFULL answers to all the nice questions...

'So how ya doin'? ' Fine... '

Whatdja have for Breakfast?' A lovely piece of naan, some fresh chikpeas and a delightful samosa...'

"Are your accomodations acceptable?" "Well the flat panel is a little small, and they had me out last night, asking me these questions and I missed "The Unit" but I DVR'd it, so it's no big deal, I'll watch it tonight... My Cousin is in this episode, he drives a taxi in Cairo and plays an informant for Snake Doctor... who ends up slaughtering his hole family and torturing their corpses for kicks... so if we could wrap this up, I'd like to get back to the room and order up a little noche..' before I watch it... Will and Grace come on at 11:00 and I'm out of memory, so i can't record that one until I erase something, and it SO hard to choose... you know"

Of course... I do the same thing with CSI and Dancing with the Stars... I lost two episodes when I was deployed last months, due to memory and I am still a little torched over that one...

"Torched?" Are you threatening me? 'Cause if you are, I'll stop being cooperative RIGHT NOW, MISTER!

NO no... Of course not, I was just saying... Well, tell ya what, lets get you back to your suite and we'll pick this up after lunch...

Oh... After Lunch? Yeaaaaaahhh... Here's the thing... I've got some letters to write and Abdul over in D-block sent a note, he wants to get together... then theirs prayers at 6:00... So how's Tuesday, arooound.. looks like I'm free after 10:00?

Tuesday at 10:00 then... sounds good... and on behalf of the government of the United States... I'd like to thank you for your continued cooperation...

Oh no problem... we're all reasonable men; these things happen... and you can count on me to tell you everything you need to know, just as I have this morning... as long as you continue to behave as a civilized man and do not threaten me with Torches...

Oh I apologize again... I was just... well, It won't happen again... We're all professionals here and you're exactly right, there's simply no excuse for that kind of behavior...

.
.
.
.
So you can see that THAT file would be ENORMOUS after a few weeks of that mind bending banter...

Just grab that file, cull the 'truths' and correlate them to the lies they told under stress techniques and just show us where the TORTURE... produced lies against what you know to be the TRUTH...

I mean I'm SURE you have that already, as that is what you'd need to make the assertion that Torture NEVER PRODUCES ANYTHING BUT LIES... anything less and you're just... well.. LYIN'....

Just hit your notes there and make us privy to the good parts...

You're trying too hard. GUILTY!

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

You sound like an OJ defender. Come on. Give it up. They're guilty. They lied, about everything. Do we really have to prove EVERY lie?

Silly bobo... Of COURSE NOT! All you have to prove is the TRUTH which they possessed, establish that they knew this truth and show that they lied when they weren't being asked nice...

Which shouldn't be that difficult... because in your above position you informed us that these men were GUSHING information to those interrogators who asked them nice... so just go back to that file... which won't be hard to find, because it has to be HUGE; because its stuffed with TRUTHFULL answers to all the nice questions...

'So how ya doin'? ' Fine... '

Whatdja have for Breakfast?' A lovely piece of naan, some fresh chikpeas and a delightful samosa...'

"Are your accomodations acceptable?" "Well the flat panel is a little small, and they had me out last night, asking me these questions and I missed "The Unit" but I DVR'd it, so it's no big deal... It's just that my Cousin is in this episode; he drives a taxi in Cairo and plays an informant for Snake Doctor... who ends up slaughtering his family and torturing their corpses for kicks... so if we could wrap this up; I'd like to get back to the room and order up a little noche..' before I watch it... Plus, Will and Grace come on at 11:00 and I'm out of memory, so I can't record that one until I erase something, and it SO hard to choose... you know..."

Of course... I do the same thing with CSI and Dancing with the Stars... I lost two episodes when I was deployed last months, due to memory and I am still a little torched over that one...

"Torched?" Are you threatening me? 'Cause if you are, I'll stop being cooperative RIGHT NOW, MISTER!

NO no... Of course not, I was just saying... Well, tell ya what, lets get you back to your suite and we'll pick this up after lunch...

Oh... After Lunch? Yeaaaaaahhh... Here's the thing... I've got some letters to write and Abdul over in D-block sent a note, he wants to get together... then there's prayer at 6:00... Soooo... how's Tuesday, arooound... looks like I'm free after 10:00?

Tuesday at 10:00 then... sounds good... and on behalf of the government of the United States... I'd like to thank you for your continued cooperation...

Oh no problem... we're all reasonable men; these things happen... and you can count on me to tell you everything you need to know, just as I have this morning... as long as you continue to behave as a civilized man and do not threaten me with Torture...

Oh I apologize again... I was just... well, It won't happen again... We're all professionals here and you're exactly right, there's simply no excuse for that kind of behavior...

.
.
.
.
So you can see that THAT file would be ENORMOUS after a few weeks of that mind bending banter...

Just grab that file, cull the 'truths' and correlate them to the lies they told under stress techniques and just show us where the TORTURE... produced lies against what you know to be the TRUTH...

I mean I'm SURE you have that already, as that is what you'd need to make the assertion that Torture NEVER PRODUCES ANYTHING BUT LIES... anything less and you're just... well.. LYIN'....

Just hit your notes there and make us privy to the good parts...

You're trying too hard. GUILTY!

Uh oh...

BOBO! Are you trying to avoid telling this board that you don't actually have ANY data wherein you know what the truth IS? Thus you're unable to show that torture was ineffective in culling that truth, in comparison to the truth which was garnered from the 'easy goin'' techniques of Soufan?

Now come on sis... I'm tryin' to help ya out here...

If you continue along this line, people are going to start 'talking'... and they're going to be saying that you're not being honest when you claim you know torture only produces lies... that you're just making it up or following the lines fed to you by others who just made it up...

Now I suggest that you take the time to show this board the evidence which I know you MUST HAVE... because you made the claim that torture only produces lies, thus you, who claim to NOT be a liar, must have the evidence wherein you can show what the truth was, that the subject KNEW the truth and that their response under stress ran counter TO THAT TRUTH...

For instance...

The Subject has been on the block, standing without the means of support for 5 hours... the interrogator asks:

OK HAJI! What did you have for BREAKFAST!

Please, just let me rest, I'll tell you all you want to know, I just need to sit down for a moment and collect my thoughts...

BREAKFAST DARKMEAT! OR I'm out that door and won't be back until next Tuesday...

OH... (and he thinks that the interrogator is giving him a clue... DARKMEAT! ) YES... I had two eggs, over-easy, CRISPY BACON, and two sausages... WELL DONE!, with a nice orange slice... next to the hamfried Potatoes...

Well that's better! Ok boys... let him down... and send the tape over to the Pentagon over the secure line: STAT!

Ya see, we know that he didn't have bacon, eggs and sausage, because; First, those foods are anathema to his faith; and Second, we fed him... and to feed him such would be a war crime, as it is ethnically incorrect... PLUS... we know from the NICE interview, that he had a slice of naan, chickpeas and a samosa.

See how that works?

Now produce the evidence...

Otherwise you're just a big fat liar... of the 'pants on fire' variety...

 

[sealybobo]

Silly bobo... Of COURSE NOT! All you have to prove is the TRUTH which they possessed, establish that they knew this truth and show that they lied when they weren't being asked nice...

Which shouldn't be that difficult... because in your above position you informed us that these men were GUSHING information to those interrogators who asked them nice... so just go back to that file... which won't be hard to find, because it has to be HUGE; because its stuffed with TRUTHFULL answers to all the nice questions...

'So how ya doin'? ' Fine... '

Whatdja have for Breakfast?' A lovely piece of naan, some fresh chikpeas and a delightful samosa...'

"Are your accomodations acceptable?" "Well the flat panel is a little small, and they had me out last night, asking me these questions and I missed "The Unit" but I DVR'd it, so it's no big deal... It's just that my Cousin is in this episode; he drives a taxi in Cairo and plays an informant for Snake Doctor... who ends up slaughtering his family and torturing their corpses for kicks... so if we could wrap this up; I'd like to get back to the room and order up a little noche..' before I watch it... Plus, Will and Grace come on at 11:00 and I'm out of memory, so I can't record that one until I erase something, and it SO hard to choose... you know..."

Of course... I do the same thing with CSI and Dancing with the Stars... I lost two episodes when I was deployed last months, due to memory and I am still a little torched over that one...

"Torched?" Are you threatening me? 'Cause if you are, I'll stop being cooperative RIGHT NOW, MISTER!

NO no... Of course not, I was just saying... Well, tell ya what, lets get you back to your suite and we'll pick this up after lunch...

Oh... After Lunch? Yeaaaaaahhh... Here's the thing... I've got some letters to write and Abdul over in D-block sent a note, he wants to get together... then there's prayer at 6:00... Soooo... how's Tuesday, arooound... looks like I'm free after 10:00?

Tuesday at 10:00 then... sounds good... and on behalf of the government of the United States... I'd like to thank you for your continued cooperation...

Oh no problem... we're all reasonable men; these things happen... and you can count on me to tell you everything you need to know, just as I have this morning... as long as you continue to behave as a civilized man and do not threaten me with Torture...

Oh I apologize again... I was just... well, It won't happen again... We're all professionals here and you're exactly right, there's simply no excuse for that kind of behavior...

.
.
.
.
So you can see that THAT file would be ENORMOUS after a few weeks of that mind bending banter...

Just grab that file, cull the 'truths' and correlate them to the lies they told under stress techniques and just show us where the TORTURE... produced lies against what you know to be the TRUTH...

I mean I'm SURE you have that already, as that is what you'd need to make the assertion that Torture NEVER PRODUCES ANYTHING BUT LIES... anything less and you're just... well.. LYIN'....

Just hit your notes there and make us privy to the good parts...

You're trying too hard. GUILTY!

Uh oh...

BOBO! Are you trying to avoid telling this board that you don't actually have ANY data wherein you know what the truth IS? Thus you're unable to show that torture was ineffective in culling that truth, in comparison to the truth which was garnered from the 'easy goin'' techniques of Soufan?

Now come on sis... I'm tryin' to help ya out here...

If you continue along this line, people are going to start 'talking'... and they're going to be saying that you're not being honest when you claim you know torture only produces lies... that you're just making it up or following the lines fed to you by others who just made it up...

Now I suggest that you take the time to show this board the evidence which I know you MUST HAVE... because you made the claim that torture only produces lies, thus you, who claim to NOT be a liar, must have the evidence wherein you can show what the truth was, that the subject KNEW the truth and that their response under stress ran counter TO THAT TRUTH...

Otherwise you're just a big fat liar... of the 'pants on fire' variety...

A former FBI interrogator who questioned al-Qaida prisoners testified Wednesday that the Bush administration falsely boasted of success from extreme techniques like waterboarding, when those methods were slow, unreliable and made an important witness stop talking.

Ali Soufan, testifying to a Senate panel behind a screen to hide his identity, said his team's non-threatening interrogation approach elicited crucial information from al-Qaida operative Abu Zubaydah, including intelligence on "dirty bomb" terrorist Jose Padilla.

Soufan said his team had to step aside when CIA contractors took over. They began using harsh methods that caused Zubaydah to "shut down," Soufan said, and his team had to be recalled the get the prisoner talking again.

Ex-FBI agent questions CIA interrogations - Security- msnbc.com

 

[sealybobo]

This is like Republicans arguing that human's are not contributing signifigantly to global warming. Pay attention. They'll lie and defend for as long as they can possibly hold out, and then they'll say that the dems have to share in the blame.

How dare they! They should be defending Nancy Pelosi but instead they are trying to make this about her.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

You're trying too hard. GUILTY!

Uh oh...

BOBO! Are you trying to avoid telling this board that you don't actually have ANY data wherein you know what the truth IS? Thus you're unable to show that torture was ineffective in culling that truth, in comparison to the truth which was garnered from the 'easy goin'' techniques of Soufan?

Now come on sis... I'm tryin' to help ya out here...

If you continue along this line, people are going to start 'talking'... and they're going to be saying that you're not being honest when you claim you know torture only produces lies... that you're just making it up or following the lines fed to you by others who just made it up...

Now I suggest that you take the time to show this board the evidence which I know you MUST HAVE... because you made the claim that torture only produces lies, thus you, who claim to NOT be a liar, must have the evidence wherein you can show what the truth was, that the subject KNEW the truth and that their response under stress ran counter TO THAT TRUTH...

Otherwise you're just a big fat liar... of the 'pants on fire' variety...

A former FBI interrogator who questioned al-Qaida prisoners testified Wednesday that the Bush administration falsely boasted of success from extreme techniques like waterboarding, when those methods were slow, unreliable and made an important witness stop talking.

Ali Soufan, testifying to a Senate panel behind a screen to hide his identity, said his team's non-threatening interrogation approach elicited crucial information from al-Qaida operative Abu Zubaydah, including intelligence on "dirty bomb" terrorist Jose Padilla.

Soufan said his team had to step aside when CIA contractors took over. They began using harsh methods that caused Zubaydah to "shut down," Soufan said, and his team had to be recalled the get the prisoner talking again.

Ex-FBI agent questions CIA interrogations - Security- msnbc.com

Oh no... well No.. that's not it... What we need is NOT the regurgitated confession of Soufan... but the actual information wherein ALL OF THE INFORMATION WHICH WAS CULLED FROM EVERY INDIVIDUAL WHICH WAS STRESSED WAS A LIE; and to evidence that; we'll need the actual TRUTH, against which the oberver can compare and contrast...

We don't expect perfection from any technique... as the technique is being applied against imperfection and applied BY imperfection... so even a conclusive demonstration, of whic this example is NOT... would not sustain your argument.

Capiche?

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Silly bobo... Of COURSE NOT! All you have to prove is the TRUTH which they possessed, establish that they knew this truth and show that they lied when they weren't being asked nice...

Which shouldn't be that difficult... because in your above position you informed us that these men were GUSHING information to those interrogators who asked them nice... so just go back to that file... which won't be hard to find, because it has to be HUGE; because its stuffed with TRUTHFULL answers to all the nice questions...

'So how ya doin'? ' Fine... '

Whatdja have for Breakfast?' A lovely piece of naan, some fresh chikpeas and a delightful samosa...'

"Are your accomodations acceptable?" "Well the flat panel is a little small, and they had me out last night, asking me these questions and I missed "The Unit" but I DVR'd it, so it's no big deal... It's just that my Cousin is in this episode; he drives a taxi in Cairo and plays an informant for Snake Doctor... who ends up slaughtering his family and torturing their corpses for kicks... so if we could wrap this up; I'd like to get back to the room and order up a little noche..' before I watch it... Plus, Will and Grace come on at 11:00 and I'm out of memory, so I can't record that one until I erase something, and it SO hard to choose... you know..."

Of course... I do the same thing with CSI and Dancing with the Stars... I lost two episodes when I was deployed last months, due to memory and I am still a little torched over that one...

"Torched?" Are you threatening me? 'Cause if you are, I'll stop being cooperative RIGHT NOW, MISTER!

NO no... Of course not, I was just saying... Well, tell ya what, lets get you back to your suite and we'll pick this up after lunch...

Oh... After Lunch? Yeaaaaaahhh... Here's the thing... I've got some letters to write and Abdul over in D-block sent a note, he wants to get together... then there's prayer at 6:00... Soooo... how's Tuesday, arooound... looks like I'm free after 10:00?

Tuesday at 10:00 then... sounds good... and on behalf of the government of the United States... I'd like to thank you for your continued cooperation...

Oh no problem... we're all reasonable men; these things happen... and you can count on me to tell you everything you need to know, just as I have this morning... as long as you continue to behave as a civilized man and do not threaten me with Torture...

Oh I apologize again... I was just... well, It won't happen again... We're all professionals here and you're exactly right, there's simply no excuse for that kind of behavior...

.
.
.
.
So you can see that THAT file would be ENORMOUS after a few weeks of that mind bending banter...

Just grab that file, cull the 'truths' and correlate them to the lies they told under stress techniques and just show us where the TORTURE... produced lies against what you know to be the TRUTH...

I mean I'm SURE you have that already, as that is what you'd need to make the assertion that Torture NEVER PRODUCES ANYTHING BUT LIES... anything less and you're just... well.. LYIN'....

Just hit your notes there and make us privy to the good parts...

You're trying too hard. GUILTY!

Uh oh...

BOBO! Are you trying to avoid telling this board that you don't actually have ANY data wherein you know what the truth IS? Thus you're unable to show that torture was ineffective in culling that truth, in comparison to the truth which was garnered from the 'easy goin'' techniques of Soufan?

Now come on sis... I'm tryin' to help ya out here...

If you continue along this line, people are going to start 'talking'... and they're going to be saying that you're not being honest when you claim you know torture only produces lies... that you're just making it up or following the lines fed to you by others who just made it up...

Now I suggest that you take the time to show this board the evidence which I know you MUST HAVE... because you made the claim that torture only produces lies, thus you, who claim to NOT be a liar, must have the evidence wherein you can show what the truth was, that the subject KNEW the truth and that their response under stress ran counter TO THAT TRUTH...

For instance...

The Subject has been on the block, standing without the means of support for 5 hours... the interrogator asks:

OK HAJI! What did you have for BREAKFAST!

Please, just let me rest, I'll tell you all you want to know, I just need to sit down for a moment and collect my thoughts...

BREAKFAST DARKMEAT! OR I'm out that door and won't be back until next Tuesday...

OH... (and he thinks that the interrogator is giving him a clue... DARKMEAT! ) YES... I had two eggs, over-easy, CRISPY BACON, and two sausages... WELL DONE!, with a nice orange slice... next to the hamfried Potatoes...

Well that's better! Ok boys... let him down... and send the tape over to the Pentagon over the secure line: STAT!

Ya see, we know that he didn't have bacon, eggs and sausage, because; First, those foods are anathema to his faith; and Second, we fed him... and to feed him such would be a war crime, as it is ethnically incorrect... PLUS... we know from the NICE interview, that he had a slice of naan, chickpeas and a samosa.

See how that works?

Now produce the evidence...

Otherwise you're just a big fat liar... of the 'pants on fire' variety...

So we're back to this... Now use this as a worksheet and set your mind to producing a sound argument.

 

[sealybobo]

Uh oh...

BOBO! Are you trying to avoid telling this board that you don't actually have ANY data wherein you know what the truth IS? Thus you're unable to show that torture was ineffective in culling that truth, in comparison to the truth which was garnered from the 'easy goin'' techniques of Soufan?

Now come on sis... I'm tryin' to help ya out here...

If you continue along this line, people are going to start 'talking'... and they're going to be saying that you're not being honest when you claim you know torture only produces lies... that you're just making it up or following the lines fed to you by others who just made it up...

Now I suggest that you take the time to show this board the evidence which I know you MUST HAVE... because you made the claim that torture only produces lies, thus you, who claim to NOT be a liar, must have the evidence wherein you can show what the truth was, that the subject KNEW the truth and that their response under stress ran counter TO THAT TRUTH...

Otherwise you're just a big fat liar... of the 'pants on fire' variety...

A former FBI interrogator who questioned al-Qaida prisoners testified Wednesday that the Bush administration falsely boasted of success from extreme techniques like waterboarding, when those methods were slow, unreliable and made an important witness stop talking.

Ali Soufan, testifying to a Senate panel behind a screen to hide his identity, said his team's non-threatening interrogation approach elicited crucial information from al-Qaida operative Abu Zubaydah, including intelligence on "dirty bomb" terrorist Jose Padilla.

Soufan said his team had to step aside when CIA contractors took over. They began using harsh methods that caused Zubaydah to "shut down," Soufan said, and his team had to be recalled the get the prisoner talking again.

Ex-FBI agent questions CIA interrogations - Security- msnbc.com

Oh no... well No.. that's not it... What we need is NOT the regurgitated confession of Soufan... but the actual information wherein ALL OF THE INFORMATION WHICH WAS CULLED FROM EVERY INDIVIDUAL WHICH WAS STRESSED WAS A LIE; and to evidence that; we'll need the actual TRUTH, against which the oberver can compare and contrast...

We don't expect perfection from any technique... as the technique is being applied against imperfection and applied BY imperfection... so even a conclusive demonstration, of whic this example is NOT... would not sustain your argument.

Capiche?

Sorry Cheney. We can't release all of the information because it would jeopordize national security. Or, as the Bush team did so often, we lost the tapes.

And it doesn't matter if it worked one time. Its illegal.

PS. Your ticking time bomb theory is bullshit too, because some of the torture techniques used were to

The Republicans (and some Democrats) are bringing up the "if your family was about to be blown up by a time bomb, wouldn't you torture someone to get that information?" Liz Cheney used it against Eugene Robinson the other day.

There are about 20 good arguments against this nonsense.

The first is, of course I would. That's why they wouldn't let me do the interrogation. This is just like the question asked of Dukakis about the death penalty, if your wife was raped and murdered, wouldn't you want to kill the killer? The answer he practiced was, "of course, but that is why we have courts and juries." He notoriously blew that answer. If it was my daughter, I'd skin the guy alive to make him talk. But it would not just be counterproductive, it would also be wrong. If you make decisions on such emotional impetus, you will make bad decisions.

A second is, torture all you want. If he knows he just has to last a certain amount of time, he will give you false information that will take you two hours to check out while the bomb goes off in an hour.

A third is, where outside of "24" has there ever been a ticking time bomb scenario?

A fourth: Torture just doesn't work. They had to waterboard one guy 200 times in a month. The bomb would have gone off 29 days earlier. The other methods, like sleep deprivation and hypothermia, take days to work, if they work at all. Once you keep someone up more than 48 hours or so, they start hallucinating. And information from people who are hallucinating isn't quite the reliability you're looking for.

A fifth: It's wrong.

A sixth: It's illegal under U.S. law and we executed German and Japanese soldiers for torturing our troops, including waterboarding.

A seventh: While 9/11 was horrendous, we lost about 3,000 people but gained sympathy all over the world. Fox News made a big deal about showing some Palestinian women celebrating in the street; they cut the film before the religious leaders showed up and ordered them to stop and show some humanity. At which point the women skulked away.

Abu Ghraib effectively ended what sympathy there was for us.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

A former FBI interrogator who questioned al-Qaida prisoners testified Wednesday that the Bush administration falsely boasted of success from extreme techniques like waterboarding, when those methods were slow, unreliable and made an important witness stop talking.

Ali Soufan, testifying to a Senate panel behind a screen to hide his identity, said his team's non-threatening interrogation approach elicited crucial information from al-Qaida operative Abu Zubaydah, including intelligence on "dirty bomb" terrorist Jose Padilla.

Soufan said his team had to step aside when CIA contractors took over. They began using harsh methods that caused Zubaydah to "shut down," Soufan said, and his team had to be recalled the get the prisoner talking again.

Ex-FBI agent questions CIA interrogations - Security- msnbc.com

Oh no... well No.. that's not it... What we need is NOT the regurgitated confession of Soufan... but the actual information wherein ALL OF THE INFORMATION WHICH WAS CULLED FROM EVERY INDIVIDUAL WHICH WAS STRESSED WAS A LIE; and to evidence that; we'll need the actual TRUTH, against which the oberver can compare and contrast...

We don't expect perfection from any technique... as the technique is being applied against imperfection and applied BY imperfection... so even a conclusive demonstration, of whic this example is NOT... would not sustain your argument.

Capiche?

Sorry Cheney. We can't release all of the information because it would jeopordize national security. Or, as the Bush team did so often, we lost the tapes.

Well... if that was even REMOTELY relevant to this discussion you'd be in GREAT shape...

The problem YOU have here, is that ya just admitted that you are NOT in possession of the information which you would NEED to be in possession of, to truthfully advance the assertion: TORTURE ONLY RESULTS IN FALSE CONFESSIONS...

Thus you have CONCEDED THIS ENTIRE DEBATE THROUGH THAT ONE POINT... As anyone that knows you, and has had the unenviable experience of reading your idiocy, KNEW YOU WOULD...

Congrats imbecile... ya crashed and burned in less than 6 posts... and while that's hardly a record for you... it was entertaining and exposed you once again as a prattling FOOL.

 

[sealybobo]

Oh no... well No.. that's not it... What we need is NOT the regurgitated confession of Soufan... but the actual information wherein ALL OF THE INFORMATION WHICH WAS CULLED FROM EVERY INDIVIDUAL WHICH WAS STRESSED WAS A LIE; and to evidence that; we'll need the actual TRUTH, against which the oberver can compare and contrast...

We don't expect perfection from any technique... as the technique is being applied against imperfection and applied BY imperfection... so even a conclusive demonstration, of whic this example is NOT... would not sustain your argument.

Capiche?

Sorry Cheney. We can't release all of the information because it would jeopordize national security. Or, as the Bush team did so often, we lost the tapes.

Well... if that was even REMOTELY relevant to this discussion you'd be in GREAT shape...

The problem YOU have here, is that ya just admitted that you are NOT in possession of the information which you would NEED to be in possession of, to truthfully advance the assertion: TORTURE ONLY RESULTS IN FALSE CONFESSIONS...

Thus you have CONCEDED THIS ENTIRE DEBATE THROUGH THAT ONE POINT... As anyone that knows you, and has had the unenviable experience of reading your idiocy, KNEW YOU WOULD...

Congrats imbecile... ya crashed and burned in less than 6 posts... and while that's hardly a record for you... it was entertaining and exposed you once again as a prattling FOOL.

You believe a proven liar Cheney and I'm believing the CIA agents who could not have spoken out when Bush was president for fear of what the liar Cheney would do to him.

And you think you won?

Your a fucking moron. You think you are making sense and leading this debate? Think again. You're like a guy who has been found guilty when they are dragging him out of the court room in shackles screaming, "I tell you I'm innocent, i was framed, this is politics".

Unfortunately for you and your party, we have not forgotten all your tricks and BS from the last 8 years.

Not gonna work this time. You may control the media still, but not the government.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Well... if that was even REMOTELY relevant to this discussion you'd be in GREAT shape...

The problem YOU have here, is that ya just admitted that you are NOT in possession of the information which you would NEED to be in possession of, to truthfully advance the assertion: TORTURE ONLY RESULTS IN FALSE CONFESSIONS...

Thus you have CONCEDED THIS ENTIRE DEBATE THROUGH THAT ONE POINT... As anyone that knows you, and has had the unenviable experience of reading your idiocy, KNEW YOU WOULD...

Congrats imbecile... ya crashed and burned in less than 6 posts... and while that's hardly a record for you... it was entertaining and exposed you once again as a prattling FOOL.

You believe a proven liar Cheney and I'm believing the CIA agents who could not have spoken out when Bush was president for fear of what the liar Cheney would do to him.

And you think you won?

Your a fucking moron. You think you are making sense and leading this debate? Think again. You're like a guy who has been found guilty when they are dragging him out of the court room in shackles screaming, "I tell you I'm innocent, i was framed, this is politics".

Unfortunately for you and your party, we have not forgotten all your tricks and BS from the last 8 years.

Not gonna work this time. You may control the media still, but not the government.

Bobo, you've already conceded the debate sis... All this is doing is cementing that concession through incessant admissions that you're not in possessions of the facts to which you previously implied you were... which are of fundamental necessity to your assertion...

It's over sis... ya lost... you should find a way to embrace that immutable FACT; as it's all ya have left...

 

[Joe_Penalty]

If you capture a person who is deemed a radical extremist and his or her sole purpose is to kill, with no regard for human life even his or her own (this means he or she will die in the process of carrying out the orders; sacrifice him or herself), then if you have a ticking time bomb scenario to waste time would be in his or her favor.

My question is, when you torture this radical extremist, how do you discern between information that is truth and information that is false?

Furthermore, how do you save time with this dilemma?

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

If you capture a person who is deemed a radical extremist and his or her sole purpose is to kill, with no regard for human life even his or her own (this means he or she will die in the process of carrying out the orders; sacrifice him or herself), then if you have a ticking time bomb scenario to waste time would be in his or her favor.

My question is, when you torture this radical extremist, how do you discern between information that is truth and information that is false?

Furthermore, how do you save time with this dilemma?

There's a host of information available to interrogators, Joe.

And they test the information culled from the subject, against that intelligence; add to that, the other 'interviews' coming on line in real-time... which is used as it comes along.

One of the tactics we were trained to use, was to gather information from a broad array of issues... and test that against any available known...

For instance, we worked counter-insurgencies... so we would have contacts within a given village... we would ask questions regarding the village and take the respones back to our contacts, who had no idea why we were asking... and you'd be surprised how quickly you can determine when someone is being truthful or tending towards deception...

If they're lying, as ageneral rule they're lying about everything... and once you bust them for a few lies and they suffer the consequences for such, they lose hope fairly quickly; and once they stop lying, they will tell you anything you want to know about anything...

 

[Joe_Penalty]

If you capture a person who is deemed a radical extremist and his or her sole purpose is to kill, with no regard for human life even his or her own (this means he or she will die in the process of carrying out the orders; sacrifice him or herself), then if you have a ticking time bomb scenario to waste time would be in his or her favor.

My question is, when you torture this radical extremist, how do you discern between information that is truth and information that is false?

Furthermore, how do you save time with this dilemma?

There's a host of information available to interrogators, Joe.

And they test the information culled from the subject, against that intelligence; add to that, the other 'interviews' coming on line in real-time... which is used as it comes along.

One of the tactics we were trained to use, was to gather information from a broad array of issues... and test that against any available known...

For instance, we worked counter-insurgencies... so we would have contacts within a given village... we would ask questions regarding the village and take the respones back to our contacts, who had no idea why we were asking... and you'd be surprised how quickly you can determine when someone is being truthful or tending towards deception...

If they're lying, as ageneral rule they're lying about everything... and once you bust them for a few lies and they suffer the consequences for such, they lose hope fairly quickly; and once they stop lying, they will tell you anything you want to know about anything...

What do you mean by suffer the consequences?