Keynesian Economics Evidently saved the world from economic meltdown

[Red Dawn]

I think they have realized that it is counterproductive, and the thing everyone was afraid of has happened already.

.

So, your contention in the economic ministers and governments of the G-8 are engaged in a massive conspiracy, and are lying about the stimulus apparently helping to avert a meltdown? That instead of telling the truth, in your view, that the stimulus was a collasal failure, they are fabricating a story about dialing down the stimulus once a sustained recovery is achieved through stimulus?.

That's your contention?

That's my contention... and that contention is based on the certainty that NOT ONE CENT of ANY STIMULUS SPENDING can be attributed to a SINGLE Positive Economic condition or development... NONE of the 'businesses' which were presumably 'saved' were essential to global commerce... NOT ONE... All the stimulus spending did was to remove the accountability inherent in the market from companies who had used EGREGEOUSLY BAD JUDGMENT in following leftist policy which COULD ONLY LEAD TO THE ECONOMIC CATASTROPHE WHICH HAS NOW BEEN REALIZED...

Had NO MONEY been spent to cover those losses, those companies would have gone busted, their assets sold for pennies on the dollar to other companies who were in a position to capitalize in those bargains... which would then have been RE-MARKETED to new buyers and whereupon the markets would have long SINCE recovered.

The only thing that the Keynsian work has done, is what it always does and that is to set aside responsibility and accountability, forstall and prolong the natural order... of the cyclical recovery...

Man, this is great.

You know a wingnut has lost the argument, when they have to rely on conspiracy theories, and allegations that all the G-8 governmnents are lying about the stimulus packages

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

any economic strategy or benevolent result is not required to define itself by your black and white standard. Perhaps your criteria of success dooms such to fail regardless of it's result based on nothing more than how far removed it is, in practice, from your opinons on economics. If a meteorologist predicts rain because he SEES high and low pressure systems should you start watering your lawn because your rain stick says the drought will continue? Like I said, i think it's way to premature to start throwing stones for you people and, really, the horserace gate way you are all gnashing your teeth for a gotcha moment says more about your motivation to talk shit than it does about your desire for a solution that doesn't fit into your economic schema.

Red Dawn created a thread called "Keynesian Economics Evidently saved the world from economic meltdown" and many of us came in and pointed out that the recession clearly hasn't ended. Meaning that Keynesian economics hasn't saved the world from anything. It's true that I don't believe Keynesian economics can help at all, but even if I'm a Keynesian I have to look at the fact that things are still getting worse and deduce that claiming victory is a bit premature.

YET. that's the mitigating factor that you seem stuck on. Would you also say that seatbelts are useless if they don't save your live after driving around the block? Again, you assume that some magical economic genie should ahve been unleashed to parade around a sign that says "See, Look At Me Now" when, clearly, this is a ridiculous standard. Hell, how long has American been waiting for Nafta to produce what free marketers were busy insisting upon a decade ago? Hell, what is the timeframe of free market capitalism if your standard here is 6 months?

I'm not passing judgement on the stimulus spending just because it hasn't worked after 6 months. I didn't expect it to work after 6, 9, or any amount of months. But since it clearly hasn't worked yet it doesn't make any sense to claim victory on its behalf.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Why don't you go buy some nuclear grade plutonium and come back and tell me about how a market cannot be controlled, ok?

Well there ya have it kids... our in-house NAMBLA advocate feels, VERY STRONGLY, that the control of the sale of ONE Infinitesimal product category, is analogous to controlling: The ECONOMY.

Which is how these fools end up doing stupid things like interfering with the Mortage Industry and the means to produce sufficient supplies of Fuel; and trainwrecking the entire economy in the process.

They're fools... who sadly, are presently holding the wheel which directs the whole of that economy... which again points to my basis in reasoning wherein I conclude that: This isn't going to end well...

It's an example of a controlled market. Hell, we control our markets from agriculture to entertainment all day long so, really, it's no sweat off of my balls if you post as many silly little googled images as necessary to fool your ego, guy.

Hell, you think WE are fools? Guess what we think of you, fool. The difference being that we already have a good 20 years to show for your economic failure. so, really, no one gives a shit about your participation anymore, greenspan.

ROFL... It's an example of a teeny tiny element which resides within a MASSIVE market... no one has even TRIED to claim that the sale of individual products cannot be controlled... as there is no reason one would... as such is obvious.

This entire economic CATASTROPHE IS A RESULT OF JUST THAT... the manipulation and the ATTEMPT to CONTROL INDIVIDUAL FACETS OF A MARKET... which quickly spun out of control and resulted in DISASTER; as it ALWAYS DOES...

And this being at the core of the central issue and indisputabel FACT: NO ONE CAN CONTROL THE MARKET

 

[Shogun]

It's way easier and more profitable to go get some cocaine or sell some DOT 3 brake fluid in Cuba for an exorbitant price.

Anyone with a halfway decent business sense, which obviously excludes you, can see that.

cocaine isn't going to nuke a third of any small state. Anyone with half a functioning brain won't avoid the examples of nuclear grade plutonium when crying about how no market can be controlled.

for real, buddy... you probably shouldn't talk about what people with a halfway descent business sense would say this side of our free market fiasco.

Of course that would be a VERY STRONG point, IF someone had argued that a given element of THE MARKET can't be controlled... Sadly... for you, our in-house advocate of adult-child sex... no one has made such a claim.

And while you know this, it's understandable that you'd run to this asinine pendantic rationalization to defend your now long discredited point.

way to adjust the goalpost, buddy!



Dude, you couldn't discredit a housefly from a turd. This is why you rely on silly, childish bullshit once your blustering has been kicked in the throat and your ego is starting to sniffle and drop tears.

Your specific response to the idea of a controlled market was to cry about black markets... DESPITE every market that HAS BEEN controlled. I tellya, Dubai port buyers sure did learn that lesson, eh stupid?



ps.. again.. ANY TIME you want to get schooled on the subject of majority age homosexuality and why people are you are nothing more than doomsdayer nutters then go make the thread.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

CAPTAIN HYPERBOLE TO THE RESCUUUUUUUE!





you assume that our current economic situation is the product of your resented economic philosophy. Shocker. I guess this is why you have to whip out the non sequiters and rhetorical bullshit in light of the failure of free market capitalism.

If we had free market capitalism the Federal Reserve wouldn't be able to control the supply of money and artificially set interest rates, which is the main cause of our downturn.

...according to your opinion. I'm more of a "Can't eat whats not on the table" sort regarding the origin of this economic meltdown. How many fluxuating interest rate home loans could have been paid as long as people still had a job that wasn't sent to discount labor land? free market theories don't impress me when we see how the failure of outsourcing has trickled UP.

The point was that you can't call what we've had over the years free market capitalism when we've had a central economic planner since 1913. In a free market the Federal Reserve couldn't exist, so we obviously don't have a free market.

 

[Metternich]

Well, I was hoping for some economic debate but it seems that it has sort of devolved.

Ah, where is Agna-fellow when you need him?

There is little to debate here.

As was already pointed out, crediting Keynesian economics for "saving the day" makes as much sense as crediting the arsonist for putting out the fire.

I wasn't criticizing, just idle comments.

 

[Shogun]

Red Dawn created a thread called "Keynesian Economics Evidently saved the world from economic meltdown" and many of us came in and pointed out that the recession clearly hasn't ended. Meaning that Keynesian economics hasn't saved the world from anything. It's true that I don't believe Keynesian economics can help at all, but even if I'm a Keynesian I have to look at the fact that things are still getting worse and deduce that claiming victory is a bit premature.

YET. that's the mitigating factor that you seem stuck on. Would you also say that seatbelts are useless if they don't save your live after driving around the block? Again, you assume that some magical economic genie should ahve been unleashed to parade around a sign that says "See, Look At Me Now" when, clearly, this is a ridiculous standard. Hell, how long has American been waiting for Nafta to produce what free marketers were busy insisting upon a decade ago? Hell, what is the timeframe of free market capitalism if your standard here is 6 months?

I'm not passing judgement on the stimulus spending just because it hasn't worked after 6 months. I didn't expect it to work after 6, 9, or any amount of months. But since it clearly hasn't worked yet it doesn't make any sense to claim victory on its behalf.

that is, of course, unless the free market alternative would have seen widescale unemployment worse than what we have after the stimulus. Again, if your timeframe is 6 months for US then why the hell should we continue to listen to your Nafta theories for over a decade?

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

So, your contention in the economic ministers and governments of the G-8 are engaged in a massive conspiracy, and are lying about the stimulus apparently helping to avert a meltdown? That instead of telling the truth, in your view, that the stimulus was a collasal failure, they are fabricating a story about dialing down the stimulus once a sustained recovery is achieved through stimulus?.

That's your contention?

That's my contention... and that contention is based on the certainty that NOT ONE CENT of ANY STIMULUS SPENDING can be attributed to a SINGLE Positive Economic condition or development... NONE of the 'businesses' which were presumably 'saved' were essential to global commerce... NOT ONE... All the stimulus spending did was to remove the accountability inherent in the market from companies who had used EGREGEOUSLY BAD JUDGMENT in following leftist policy which COULD ONLY LEAD TO THE ECONOMIC CATASTROPHE WHICH HAS NOW BEEN REALIZED...

Had NO MONEY been spent to cover those losses, those companies would have gone busted, their assets sold for pennies on the dollar to other companies who were in a position to capitalize in those bargains... which would then have been RE-MARKETED to new buyers and whereupon the markets would have long SINCE recovered.

The only thing that the Keynsian work has done, is what it always does and that is to set aside responsibility and accountability, forstall and prolong the natural order... of the cyclical recovery...

Man, this is great.

You know a wingnut has lost the argument, when they have to rely on conspiracy theories, and allegations that all the G-8 governmnents are lying about the stimulus packages

What 'theory' is that? That the worlds leftist governments are conspiring to bullshit the public into believing that the economy is recovering where there is absolutely NO SIGN OF SUCH TO BE FOUND ANYWHERE IN THE ECONOMIC UNIVERSE?

That's an established FACT sis... but it is cute that your prepared to place SO MUCH FAITH in that which is so positively false... because that arbiter of virtue, "THE GOVERNMENT" told ya so...

Absolutely HYSTERICAL! ...

 

[Shogun]

Well there ya have it kids... our in-house NAMBLA advocate feels, VERY STRONGLY, that the control of the sale of ONE Infinitesimal product category, is analogous to controlling: The ECONOMY.

Which is how these fools end up doing stupid things like interfering with the Mortage Industry and the means to produce sufficient supplies of Fuel; and trainwrecking the entire economy in the process.

They're fools... who sadly, are presently holding the wheel which directs the whole of that economy... which again points to my basis in reasoning wherein I conclude that: This isn't going to end well...

It's an example of a controlled market. Hell, we control our markets from agriculture to entertainment all day long so, really, it's no sweat off of my balls if you post as many silly little googled images as necessary to fool your ego, guy.

Hell, you think WE are fools? Guess what we think of you, fool. The difference being that we already have a good 20 years to show for your economic failure. so, really, no one gives a shit about your participation anymore, greenspan.

ROFL... It's an example of a teeny tiny element which resides within a MASSIVE market... no one has even TRIED to claim that the sale of individual products cannot be controlled... as there is no reason one would... as such is obvious.

This entire economic CATASTROPHE IS A RESULT OF JUST THAT... the manipulation and the ATTEMPT to CONTROL INDIVIDUAL FACETS OF A MARKET... which quickly spun out of control and resulted in DISASTER; as it ALWAYS DOES...

And this being at the core of the central issue and indisputabel FACT: NO ONE CAN CONTROL THE MARKET

falling back on some theoretical "THE MARKET" is a fucking laugh inducing joke, dude. How much trade with North Korea or Iran do we let go under the radar? Your sky is falling shit really isn't impressive in light of facts. Perhaps it's just that YOU and your simian fucking brain can't control the market..

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

YET. that's the mitigating factor that you seem stuck on. Would you also say that seatbelts are useless if they don't save your live after driving around the block? Again, you assume that some magical economic genie should ahve been unleashed to parade around a sign that says "See, Look At Me Now" when, clearly, this is a ridiculous standard. Hell, how long has American been waiting for Nafta to produce what free marketers were busy insisting upon a decade ago? Hell, what is the timeframe of free market capitalism if your standard here is 6 months?

I'm not passing judgement on the stimulus spending just because it hasn't worked after 6 months. I didn't expect it to work after 6, 9, or any amount of months. But since it clearly hasn't worked yet it doesn't make any sense to claim victory on its behalf.

that is, of course, unless the free market alternative would have seen widescale unemployment worse than what we have after the stimulus. Again, if your timeframe is 6 months for US then why the hell should we continue to listen to your Nafta theories for over a decade?

Well I don't support NAFTA, CAFTA, or any other "free trade" agreement. I've already stated that I have no timeframe for the stimulus to work, because I don't think it's going to work at all.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

YET. that's the mitigating factor that you seem stuck on. Would you also say that seatbelts are useless if they don't save your live after driving around the block? Again, you assume that some magical economic genie should ahve been unleashed to parade around a sign that says "See, Look At Me Now" when, clearly, this is a ridiculous standard. Hell, how long has American been waiting for Nafta to produce what free marketers were busy insisting upon a decade ago? Hell, what is the timeframe of free market capitalism if your standard here is 6 months?

I'm not passing judgement on the stimulus spending just because it hasn't worked after 6 months. I didn't expect it to work after 6, 9, or any amount of months. But since it clearly hasn't worked yet it doesn't make any sense to claim victory on its behalf.

that is, of course, unless the free market alternative would have seen widescale unemployment worse than what we have after the stimulus. Again, if your timeframe is 6 months for US then why the hell should we continue to listen to your Nafta theories for over a decade?

ROFLMNAO... Oh that's cute... the baseless assumption that the economic ramifications of the natural accountability of the market would have resulted in WORSE economic suffering... over the Keynsian alternative...

Again we can return to history and examine the boom bust cycles prior to the Federal Reserve coming into play... the recession of 1922 is a classic example, where unemployment spiked to 14% over the first year and by the end of the second year it was at 3%... Now THIS the left says is preferrable to the double digit unemployment of the ENTIRE 1930s... which resulted from roughly the same Keysian policies we're seeing trotted out today...

So the individual is left to decide for themselves which is more reasonable... sharp increases of unemployment for 12 months, which quickly return, through the natural cycle to norms; or continuous hyper-unemployment for a decade...

As for me... I've gotta go with the natural cycle... just seems more reasonable to me.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

It's an example of a controlled market. Hell, we control our markets from agriculture to entertainment all day long so, really, it's no sweat off of my balls if you post as many silly little googled images as necessary to fool your ego, guy.

Hell, you think WE are fools? Guess what we think of you, fool. The difference being that we already have a good 20 years to show for your economic failure. so, really, no one gives a shit about your participation anymore, greenspan.

ROFL... It's an example of a teeny tiny element which resides within a MASSIVE market... no one has even TRIED to claim that the sale of individual products cannot be controlled... as there is no reason one would... as such is obvious.

This entire economic CATASTROPHE IS A RESULT OF JUST THAT... the manipulation and the ATTEMPT to CONTROL INDIVIDUAL FACETS OF A MARKET... which quickly spun out of control and resulted in DISASTER; as it ALWAYS DOES...

And this being at the core of the central issue and indisputabel FACT: NO ONE CAN CONTROL THE MARKET

falling back on some theoretical "THE MARKET" is a fucking laugh inducing joke, dude. How much trade with North Korea or Iran do we let go under the radar? Your sky is falling shit really isn't impressive in light of facts. Perhaps it's just that YOU and your simian fucking brain can't control the market..

Ahh... So "The Market" which is as real as you are... and self evident to even the dimmest bulb... is a "THEORY"...

ROFL...

Anyone need anything else here?

 

[Oddball]

Well, I was hoping for some economic debate but it seems that it has sort of devolved.

Ah, where is Agna-fellow when you need him?

There is little to debate here.

As was already pointed out, crediting Keynesian economics for "saving the day" makes as much sense as crediting the arsonist for putting out the fire.

CAPTAIN HYPERBOLE TO THE RESCUUUUUUUE!





you assume that our current economic situation is the product of your resented economic philosophy. Shocker. I guess this is why you have to whip out the non sequiters and rhetorical bullshit in light of the failure of free market capitalism.

In order to claim that free market capitalism has failed, it's incumbent upon you to prove, beyond any qualification or shadow of doubt, that a truly free market model was in fact being followed...Which you cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, because it wasn't.

 

[Shogun]

I'm not passing judgement on the stimulus spending just because it hasn't worked after 6 months. I didn't expect it to work after 6, 9, or any amount of months. But since it clearly hasn't worked yet it doesn't make any sense to claim victory on its behalf.

that is, of course, unless the free market alternative would have seen widescale unemployment worse than what we have after the stimulus. Again, if your timeframe is 6 months for US then why the hell should we continue to listen to your Nafta theories for over a decade?

Well I don't support NAFTA, CAFTA, or any other "free trade" agreement. I've already stated that I have no timeframe for the stimulus to work, because I don't think it's going to work at all.

so, if you are convinced that it is doomed to fail then why should anyone else be as considerate of your input as you are of theirs? You don't think it's going to work? fair enough. I think the same way bout your economic opinion. congrats.

 

[Shogun]

I'm not passing judgement on the stimulus spending just because it hasn't worked after 6 months. I didn't expect it to work after 6, 9, or any amount of months. But since it clearly hasn't worked yet it doesn't make any sense to claim victory on its behalf.

that is, of course, unless the free market alternative would have seen widescale unemployment worse than what we have after the stimulus. Again, if your timeframe is 6 months for US then why the hell should we continue to listen to your Nafta theories for over a decade?

ROFLMNAO... Oh that's cute... the baseless assumption that the economic ramifications of the natural accountability of the market would have resulted in WORSE economic suffering... over the Keynsian alternative...

Again we can return to history and examine the boom bust cycles prior to the Federal Reserve coming into play... the recession of 1922 is a classic example, where unemployment spiked to 14% over the first year and by the end of the second year it was at 3%... Now THIS the left says is preferrable to the double digit unemployment of the ENTIRE 1930s... which resulted from roughly the same Keysian policies we're seeing trotted out today...

So the individual is left to decide for themselves which is more reasonable... sharp increases of unemployment for 12 months, which quickly return, through the natural cycle to norms; or continuous hyper-unemployment for a decade...

As for me... I've gotta go with the natural cycle... just seems more reasonable to me.

yea dude.. the new fucking deal SCREAMS of "natural cycle"..








See, this is why it's so easy to spot your blustering bullshit. Cute, indeed.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

that is, of course, unless the free market alternative would have seen widescale unemployment worse than what we have after the stimulus. Again, if your timeframe is 6 months for US then why the hell should we continue to listen to your Nafta theories for over a decade?

Well I don't support NAFTA, CAFTA, or any other "free trade" agreement. I've already stated that I have no timeframe for the stimulus to work, because I don't think it's going to work at all.

so, if you are convinced that it is doomed to fail then why should anyone else be as considerate of your input as you are of theirs? You don't think it's going to work? fair enough. I think the same way bout your economic opinion. congrats.

As you've made very clear. But once again, the point of this thread was to assert that the stimulus has worked and can be scaled back. Even a Keynesian should be able to point out that this is obviously not correct because everything is still getting worse.

 

[Shogun]

ROFL... It's an example of a teeny tiny element which resides within a MASSIVE market... no one has even TRIED to claim that the sale of individual products cannot be controlled... as there is no reason one would... as such is obvious.

This entire economic CATASTROPHE IS A RESULT OF JUST THAT... the manipulation and the ATTEMPT to CONTROL INDIVIDUAL FACETS OF A MARKET... which quickly spun out of control and resulted in DISASTER; as it ALWAYS DOES...

And this being at the core of the central issue and indisputabel FACT: NO ONE CAN CONTROL THE MARKET

falling back on some theoretical "THE MARKET" is a fucking laugh inducing joke, dude. How much trade with North Korea or Iran do we let go under the radar? Your sky is falling shit really isn't impressive in light of facts. Perhaps it's just that YOU and your simian fucking brain can't control the market..

Ahh... So "The Market" which is as real as you are... and self evident to even the dimmest bulb... is a "THEORY"...

ROFL...

Anyone need anything else here?

"the market" in economic practice is a theory; yes. Isn't it funny how you have to keep dodging behind dancing jargon to continue posting on this topic?

What.. are you going to act like you did above and pretend that no one said a market CANT be controlled after wiping the egg off of your face?

 

[Shogun]

There is little to debate here.

As was already pointed out, crediting Keynesian economics for "saving the day" makes as much sense as crediting the arsonist for putting out the fire.

CAPTAIN HYPERBOLE TO THE RESCUUUUUUUE!





you assume that our current economic situation is the product of your resented economic philosophy. Shocker. I guess this is why you have to whip out the non sequiters and rhetorical bullshit in light of the failure of free market capitalism.

In order to claim that free market capitalism has failed, it's incumbent upon you to prove, beyond any qualification or shadow of doubt, that a truly free market model was in fact being followed...Which you cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, because it wasn't.

HAHAHAHA!


talk about flaying around like a backbone-less eel, dude! It's fucking HILARIOUS to see you people cry about some utopian "perfect free market" which you think, apparently, alleviates you from the absolute FAIL we've seen from you Greenspan types. Seriously, dude... you would never give as much room for the same excuses as to why communism failed so, sorry, your "looks good on paper but fails in practice" ass can go sit in the corner with every commie you've ever thrown shit at.

 

[Oddball]

CAPTAIN HYPERBOLE TO THE RESCUUUUUUUE!





you assume that our current economic situation is the product of your resented economic philosophy. Shocker. I guess this is why you have to whip out the non sequiters and rhetorical bullshit in light of the failure of free market capitalism.

In order to claim that free market capitalism has failed, it's incumbent upon you to prove, beyond any qualification or shadow of doubt, that a truly free market model was in fact being followed...Which you cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, because it wasn't.

HAHAHAHA!


talk about flaying around like a backbone-less eel, dude! It's fucking HILARIOUS to see you people cry about some utopian "perfect free market" which you think, apparently, alleviates you from the absolute FAIL we've seen from you Greenspan types. Seriously, dude... you would never give as much room for the same excuses as to why communism failed so, sorry, your "looks good on paper but fails in practice" ass can go sit in the corner with every commie you've ever thrown shit at.

Just say "I cannot prove my initial idiotic assertion".

It'll save you a lot of keystrokes.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

CAPTAIN HYPERBOLE TO THE RESCUUUUUUUE!





you assume that our current economic situation is the product of your resented economic philosophy. Shocker. I guess this is why you have to whip out the non sequiters and rhetorical bullshit in light of the failure of free market capitalism.

In order to claim that free market capitalism has failed, it's incumbent upon you to prove, beyond any qualification or shadow of doubt, that a truly free market model was in fact being followed...Which you cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, because it wasn't.

HAHAHAHA!


talk about flaying around like a backbone-less eel, dude! It's fucking HILARIOUS to see you people cry about some utopian "perfect free market" which you think, apparently, alleviates you from the absolute FAIL we've seen from you Greenspan types. Seriously, dude... you would never give as much room for the same excuses as to why communism failed so, sorry, your "looks good on paper but fails in practice" ass can go sit in the corner with every commie you've ever thrown shit at.

Greenspan was not a believer in the free market, which is proven by the fact that he was the head of the Federal Reserve and his policies while in that position.