Keynesian economics 101

[Oddball]

No, I'm not....Just pointing out the BS propaganda, that preys on rank economic ignorance, being promulgated by progressive Fabian socialists of your ilk.

 

[boedicca]

Actually, the real purpose of the stimulus was to fund $10,000 a piece signs all over the country celebrating the generosity of Obama in spending our tax money.

PJM reported last month that the cost of the signs could be as much as $192 million or more by the time the funded projects are completed.

“We’re gonna make an easy $20 million cut,” Schock said last Wednesday. It cuts to the heart of the Democrats’ message that “there are no easy cuts.”

“They always trot out the children or suggest you’re gonna put people at some kind of disadvantage if you make cuts in government,” he said. “This is a glaring example of abuse of taxpayer trust that they would blow this kind of money on self-promoting propaganda.”

Schock said he was incensed over the cost of the signs and what they imply.

“Signs over $10,000 a piece?” he asked. “This after the president spent all that time promoting the stimulus as job-creating infrastructure investment? Less than eight percent of this bill actually went to infrastructure, and then of that tens of millions of dollars getting wasted on signs.”

Pajamas Media Plenty of Schock, Very Little Awe at Mandatory Obama Signage

 

[KissMy]

Owe-bama country:- Hard times for Ill., but not for governor's staff

Illinois Gov. Pat Quinn has handed out raises — some of more than 20 percent — to his staff while proclaiming a message of "shared sacrifice" and planning spending cuts of $1.4 billion because the state is awash in debt.

The Democrat has given 43 salary increases averaging 11.4 percent to 35 staffers in the past 15 months, according to an Associated Press analysis of records obtained under the Freedom of Information Act.

They include a $24,000-a-year bump for the man promoted to shepherd the state through the fiscal storm. Budget Director David Vaught got a 20 percent raise to $144,000 in October when he moved from senior adviser to Quinn.

Quinn's office said the raises did not prevent him from making deep spending cuts in both the governor's office and his Office of Management and Budget.

But lawmakers, whom Quinn has asked to raise income taxes and borrow billions to meet its obligations for employee pensions reacted with skepticism and anger.

"It's insulting," said Rep. Jack Franks, a Woodstock Democrat who voted "no" on Quinn's proposal to borrow $3.7 billion for the pension payment that the House OK'd but Senate has not.

 

[B. Kidd]

Abengoa solar, keeping in mind their going to build the world's largest solar plant in Az., will employ 1500 for construction, and 100 to maintain it. It will take alot less to maintain a solar 'plant' than 100 after being built.
Projected power output for 70,000 homes.
Alot of money for less in return.

 

[B. Kidd]

Abengoa solar, keeping in mind their going to build the world's largest solar plant in Az., will employ 1500 for construction, and 100 to maintain it. It will take alot less to maintain a solar 'plant' than 100 after being built.
Projected power output for 70,000 homes.
Alot of money for less in return.

Here in So. Nevada, Sempra solar built the Eldorado solar plant, the one where Harry Reid has had numerous photo-ops, outside of Boulder City.
Taking into account that this plant only powers 6400 homes, it created 112 construction jobs when built, and employed one (not a typo) full-time staff person to maintain it after being built, as it is remotely monitored.
Maybe the Abengoa plant when built, will employ 12 full-time people to maintain it.
Bottom-line is Someones 'fudging' the numbers somewheres as far as created jobs, permanent or not, and making a helluva alot of money out of these 'boondoggles'.

 

[Polk]

Lets see, 2,000,000,000 dollars/1500 jobs = 1,333,333 dollars per job. Hahahahaha.................

His plan to pay 1,250,000.00 per temp solar job is fucking stupid.

Contrary to what appears to be popular belief here, this isn't a direct payment toward labor costs. Instead, they're loan guarantees to construct plants, which I would imagine you realize involves costs beyond just labor costs. From Abengoa:

Washington, DC – President Obama announced today in his weekly video address that DOE has offered a conditional commitment for a $1.45 billion loan guarantee to Abengoa Solar, Inc. The loan will support the construction and start-up of Solana, a 250 net megawatt (MW) concentrating solar power (CSP) plant in Arizona. [...]

DOE’s Title XVII Loan Guarantee Program was created to support the deployment of innovative clean energy technologies pursuant to Section 1703 of Title XVII of the Energy Policy Act of 2005 (Title XVII). Title XVII of the Energy Policy Act of 2005 was amended by the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 to create Section 1705, a new program for the deployment of renewable energy and electric power transmission projects. Solana is eligible for a loan guarantee under both sections of Title XVII.

Santiago Seage, CEO of Abengoa Solar, said that “this conditional guarantee could allow us to start construction of Solana this year. I want to recognize the leadership and effort of the DOE in making Solana possible through this guarantee.” Mr. Seage also added that Solana is in a very advanced stage of development and permitting, having received most of its authorizations from local, county, and state authorities. Recently, DOE conducted an Environmental Assessment study and issued a finding of no significant impact (FONSI) for the project. “What the project needs now is for Maricopa County and the state to continue their support and work expeditiously on the last remaining permits needed for construction to begin,” said Abengoa Solar’s Seage.

The construction and operation of Solana will bring many economic and environmental benefits to Arizona and will support the nation’s goals for energy independence through a “green” economy. The plant will create significant tax income for local communities and the state over the life of the project. Abengoa Solar’s Arizona Vice President Kate Maracas stated that “the building of Solana will also create between 1,600-1,700 new construction jobs, and operation of the plant will add another 85 permanent jobs. These construction and operating jobs will create a few thousand additional indirect jobs. Taken together, 98% of the jobs created by Solana will be American jobs - primarily from Arizona, and a smaller portion from neighboring states.”

Abengoa Solar signed a power purchase agreement with APS, the state’s largest electric utility, to sell the energy produced by Solana for a period of 30 years. “APS has demonstrated a strong commitment to solar energy and has shown leadership in moving solar energy toward the mainstream,” said Maracas.​

But what they're claiming is way more fun and outlandish. Then Dude will come back in with his "no income taxes would be necessary if the government was only the size it was ten years ago" load of rubbish.

 

[Capitalist]

This will stimulate?

CNS News reported:

According to the Government Accountability Office (GAO), the federal government helped pay the home air conditioning bills for more than 11,000 dead people, 1,100 federal employees, and 725 convicts in fiscal year 2009.
The payments were made by a $5 billion program known as the Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program (LIHEAP). LIHEAP is designed to provide federal assistance, administered by the states, to help people pay the energy bills to heat their homes in the winter and cool them in the summer. The funds are disbursed by the Department of Health and Human Services and are distributed based on a formula that takes into account a state’s weather and the size of its low-income population.
The GAO examined the LIHEAP programs in seven states: Virginia, Maryland, Ohio, New York, Illinois, Michigan, and New Jersey. The agency found evidence of fraud in each state.
“Our analysis of LIHEAP data revealed that the program is at risk of fraud and providing improper benefits in all seven of our selected states,” reported the GAO. “About 260,000 applications–9 percent of households receiving benefits in the selected states–contained invalid identity information, such as Social Security numbers, names, or dates of birth.”
Most glaring among the problems the GAO found were the pervasive payment of LIHEAP benefits to dead people, some of whom, records show, had been dead for quite a long time.
“The identities of over 11,000 deceased individuals were used as applicants or household members for LIHEAP benefits,” reads the GAO report. “Our analysis matching LIHEAP data to the SSA’s death master file found these individuals were deceased before the LIHEAP application date.” (SSA is the acronym for the Social Security Administration.)
​

 

[Greenbeard]

This will stimulate?

LIHEAP wasn't part of the stimulus package.

 

[Charles_Main]

This will stimulate?

LIHEAP wasn't part of the stimulus package.

So it is just more deficit spending not even intended to stimulate.

Nice

 

[B. Kidd]

This will stimulate?

LIHEAP wasn't part of the stimulus package.

So it is just more deficit spending not even intended to stimulate.

Nice

Bottom line, 'green-stimulus', as it now stands, is only intended to stimulate the privileged.
Why else was Al Gore, part founder of a bank that turns out-of-thin-air-carbon-tax-credits, into real live dollars.
It's a 'Royal Scam'. (Also happens to be one of my favorite Steely Dan albums).

 

[Jeremy]

LIHEAP wasn't part of the stimulus package.

So it is just more deficit spending not even intended to stimulate.

Nice

Bottom line, 'green-stimulus', as it now stands, is only intended to stimulate the privileged.
Why else was Al Gore, part founder of a bank that turns out-of-thin-air-carbon-tax-credits, into real live dollars.
It's a 'Royal Scam'. (Also happens to be one of my favorite Steely Dan albums).

Al Gore is a typical bougois liberal. And a fucking sleazy sex crazed sphincter spasm.

 

[Cuyo]

WASHINGTON (AP) – The government is handing out nearly $2 billion for new solar plants that President Barack Obama says will create thousands of jobs and increase the use of renewable energy sources.
Obama announced the initiative in his weekly radio and online address Saturday, saying the money is part of his plan to bring new industries to the U.S.
“We’re going to keep competing aggressively to make sure the jobs and industries of the future are taking root right here in America,” Obama said.
The two companies that will receive the money from the president’s $862 billion economic stimulus are Abengoa Solar, which will build one of the world’s largest solar plants in Arizona, creating 1,600 construction jobs; and Abound Solar Manufacturing, which is building plants in Colorado and Indiana. The Obama administration says those projects will create more than 2,000 construction jobs and 1,500 permanent jobs.






Lets see, 2,000,000,000 dollars/1500 jobs = 1,333,333 dollars per job. Hahahahaha.................

You would have an excellent point, if we stood to gain nothing from the project except the jobs. Of course, that's not the case; We're also gaining one of the world's largest solar power plants, as the OP indicates.

What was the cost-per-job for the interstate highways? Much higher I assume, but at the end of the project, tada, we had interstate highways. Same thing.

 

[B. Kidd]

No, not the same thing.

Interstate highways support alot more initial construction jobs and subsequent MAINTENANCE jobs.

 

[Jeremy]

No, not the same thing.

Interstate highways support alot more initial construction jobs and subsequent MAINTENANCE jobs.

Not to mention the subsequent economic explosion as a result of urban sprawl, suburbs, strip malls, trucking etc. etc. etc. that not a single green industry could even dream of.

 

[Cuyo]

No, not the same thing.

Interstate highways support alot more initial construction jobs and subsequent MAINTENANCE jobs.

Not to mention the subsequent economic explosion as a result of urban sprawl, suburbs, strip malls, trucking etc. etc. etc. that not a single green industry could even dream of.

Frame it to suit your POV, but it's the same thing on a smaller scale. X number of temporary jobs plus Y number of permanent jobs, plus the actual good in question; In this case a new state of the art solar power plant.

BTW, do you NOT think cheap, inexhaustible, clean energy has the capacity to result in an economic boom? I don't necessarily mean this plant by itself, but the possibilities are as big as interstate highways... Maybe bigger.

 

[B. Kidd]

No, not the same thing.

Interstate highways support alot more initial construction jobs and subsequent MAINTENANCE jobs.

Not to mention the subsequent economic explosion as a result of urban sprawl, suburbs, strip malls, trucking etc. etc. etc. that not a single green industry could even dream of.

BTW, do you NOT think cheap, inexhaustible, clean energy has the capacity to result in an economic boom? I don't necessarily mean this plant by itself, but the possibilities are as big as interstate highways... Maybe bigger.

I see you finally read the whole thread.
Your back-peddling and false optimism, is good enough for me.

 

[Cuyo]

Not to mention the subsequent economic explosion as a result of urban sprawl, suburbs, strip malls, trucking etc. etc. etc. that not a single green industry could even dream of.

BTW, do you NOT think cheap, inexhaustible, clean energy has the capacity to result in an economic boom? I don't necessarily mean this plant by itself, but the possibilities are as big as interstate highways... Maybe bigger.

I see you finally read the whole thread.
Your back-peddling and false optimism, is good enough for me.

No, I haven't read the whole thread. And any back pedaling you've perceived does not exist outside of your head. I'm actually poking around to try to find more information about this project. Its harder to find than you'd expect.

 

[B. Kidd]

Yes, it is harder to find, then 'just this thread'.

It is not my intent to 'diss' the current state of alternative energy. But is my intent to depict the shortfalls of current alternative energy, along with the current political scams that are part and parcel of its' shortcomings.

I assume that you are younger than me, and I can only hope that your generation will techno and politico improve upon current alternatives.

It needs to happen......sincerely...cause it ain't happen'in now!

 

[antagon]

ya might be too old to tell one way or another.

 

[midcan5]

"A depression, Keynes believed, is an especially severe recession in which people hoard money no matter how much the central bank tries to expand the money supply. In that case, he suggested that government should do what the people were not: start spending. He called this "priming the pump" of the economy. Indeed, most economists believe that only massive U.S. defense spending in preparation for World War II cured the Great Depression.

After its success during the war, almost all free governments around the world became Keynesian. Its policies have dramatically reduced the severity of recessions since then, and appear to have completely eliminated the depression from the world's economies."

Causes of the Great Depression


A little history: Timeline of the Great Depression

'1931'
"No major legislation is passed addressing the Depression.
A second banking panic occurs in the spring.
The GNP falls another 8.5 percent; unemployment rises to 15.9 percent.
1932
This and the next year are the worst years of the Great Depression. For 1932, GNP falls a record 13.4 percent; unemployment rises to 23.6 percent.
Industrial stocks have lost 80 percent of their value since 1930.
10,000 banks have failed since 1929, or 40 percent of the 1929 total.
About $2 billion in deposits have been lost since 1929.
Money supply has contracted 31 percent since 1929.
GNP has also fallen 31 percent since 1929.
Over 13 million Americans have lost their jobs since 1929.
Capital growth investments have dropped from $16.2 billion to 1/3 of one billion since 1929.
Farm prices have fallen 53 percent since 1929.
International trade has fallen by two-thirds since 1929.
The Fed makes its first major expansion of the money supply since February 1930.
Congress creates the Reconstruction Finance Corporation. (More)
Congress passes the Federal Home Loan Bank Act and the Glass-Steagall Act of 1932. (More)
Top tax rate is raised from 25 to 63 percent.
Popular opinion considers Hoover's measures too little too late. Franklin Roosevelt easily defeats Hoover in the fall election. Democrats win control of Congress.
At his Democratic presidential nomination, Roosevelt says: "I pledge you, I pledge myself, to a new deal for the American people."
1933
Roosevelt inaugurated; begins "First 100 Days" of intensive legislative activity. (More)
A third banking panic occurs in March. Roosevelt declares a Bank Holiday; closes financial institutions to stop a run on banks.
Alarmed by Roosevelt's plan to redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor, a group of millionaire businessmen, led by the Du Pont and J.P. Morgan empires, plans to overthrow Roosevelt with a military coup and install a fascist government. The businessmen try to recruit General Smedley Butler, promising him an army of 500,000, unlimited financial backing and generous media spin control. The plot is foiled when Butler reports it to Congress. (More)
Congress authorizes creation of the Agricultural Adjustment Administration, the Civilian Conservation Corps, the Farm Credit Administration, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, the Federal Emergency Relief Administration, the National Recovery Administration, the Public Works Administration and the Tennessee Valley Authority. (More)
Congress passes the Emergency Banking Bill, the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933, the Farm Credit Act, the National Industrial Recovery Act and the Truth-in-Securities Act. (More)
U.S. goes off the gold standard.
Roosevelt does much to redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor, but is obsessed with a balanced budget. He later rejects Keynes' advice to begin heavy deficit spending.
The free fall of the GNP is significantly slowed; it dips only 2.1 percent this year. Unemployment rises slightly, to 24.9 percent.
1934
Congress authorizes creation of the Federal Communications Commission, the National Mediation Board and the Securities and Exchange Commission. (More)
Congress passes the Securities and Exchange Act and the Trade Agreement Act. (More)
The economy turns around: GNP rises 7.7 percent, and unemployment falls to 21.7 percent. A long road to recovery begins.
Sweden becomes the first nation to recover fully from the Great Depression. It has followed a policy of Keynesian deficit spending."

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