Keep It In Your Pants Until You're Married

[jillian]

How many pages deep did you have to go to find THAT? hardly the "omnipotent religious right" the fearmongering in this thread is portrays.

Is this link used at any public school to teach sex education?

What it boils down to is you would disallow religions their opinions on the topic. Not very liberal-minded of you.

"religious" opinions don't belong in public school. you wouldn't want someone's Islamic sensibilities taken into account now, would you?

 

[Gunny]

"religious" opinions don't belong in public school. you wouldn't want someone's Islamic sensibilities taken into account now, would you?

That's crap and you know it. Religious opinion has as much right to be in a public school as that secular garbage that keeps getting pushed down everyone's throats. You're more than willing to present one side of the equation but not the other.

Again, not fair, and hardly in keeping with liberal idealism.

 

[jillian]

That's crap and you know it. Religious opinion has as much right to be in a public school as that secular garbage that keeps getting pushed down everyone's throats. You're more than willing to present one side of the equation but not the other.

Again, not fair, and hardly in keeping with liberal idealism.

Man, GL, you know I have no issues with you, but I do so love it when you equate "secular sensibility" and "religious sensibility". Let's see how this works... THE STATE CAN'T FOSTER RELIGION. Schools are by definition SECULAR.

so there is only one side of the equation that's constitutional. And why do you see a difference between Christian sensibilities and Muslim sensibilities? Personally, I don't want either in school except as part of a comparative religion course, which I'm all for.

 

[Gunny]

Man, GL, you know I have no issues with you, but I do so love it when you equate "secular sensibility" and "religious sensibility". Let's see how this works... THE STATE CAN'T FOSTER RELIGION. Schools are by definition SECULAR.

so there is only one side of the equation that's constitutional. And why do you see a difference between Christian sensibilities and Muslim sensibilities? Personally, I don't want either in school except as part of a comparative religion course, which I'm all for.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. "

Your claim that secularism is the only Constitutional side of the equation falls a bit short.

The US Constitution does not mention education; which, means it falls to the states in accordance with the 10th Amendment. The US Constitution precludes the US Congress from establishing a national religion. It does not preclude states from doing so, nor does it preclude states from teaching religion in public schools.

Further the US Supreme Court has ruled that there is no federal COnstiutional Right to an education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_education

So, the fact is, religious opinion has just as much legal right in public schools as any other opinions.

 

[CharlestonChad]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. "

Your claim that secularism is the only Constitutional side of the equation falls a bit short.

The US Constitution does not mention education; which, means it falls to the states in accordance with the 10th Amendment. The US Constitution precludes the US Congress from establishing a national religion. It does not preclude states from doing so, nor does it preclude states from teaching religion in public schools.

Further the US Supreme Court has ruled that there is no federal COnstiutional Right to an education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_education

So, the fact is, religious opinion has just as much legal right in public schools as any other opinions.

Wrong.


GunnyL, how about this compromise. We teach the basic morals that this country was founded upon (justice, equality, love thy neighbor, ect...) and in return we don't try to teach the kids about jesus, allah, and budda. Maybe we can leave that task up to the churches, parents, and kids themselves.

 

[mattskramer]

"religious" opinions don't belong in public school. you wouldn't want someone's Islamic sensibilities taken into account now, would you?

I was taking a public high school course in philosophy. I remember asking the teacher if he were Christian. I still recall the look on his face. It seemed to me as if he were not sure if he should tell me the truth or not. He finally said that he was a Christian.

Are teachers allowed to read a Bible during break time? Are they allowed to wear any type of religious jewelry – what about a tiny itsy-bitsy cross pin?
What are students allowed to say or not say? If my teacher tells me to write a story about someone who influenced me, can I write about Jesus or does that cross the line? Does freedom of speech end at the school door?

What if I don’t want evolution taught exclusive of any other theory? Should I at least get to have the “still unanswered questions” posed to my child/student as evolution has not answered all questions? What if I still believe that sex education should not be so comprehensively taught. Should I be allowed to opt my child out of sex ed?

Shouldn’t the bible be mentioned in a literature class? It certainly is an old and influential book – whether it is true or not is another matter. What about the influence that Christianity (the belief that early people had about the Bible) had in early America. Can’t that be taught in a history class?

Along with your comment, these are just some of the many gray areas where other topics and Christianity may overlap. It is just another reason why I support school choice. This would be a moot point if we had school choice. You can take your kids to a satanic school or atheist school or whatever school you like. Hey! Perhaps with a voucher program we could consider keeping the money and home-schooling our kids. Think of the freedom and possibilities. Oh, but wait. Somewhere in some tiny school, a tiny bit of tax money might be used by a teacher who tells a student that God may have created the earth. Horrors.

 

[jillian]

I was taking a public high school course in philosophy. I remember asking the teacher if he were Christian. I still recall the look on his face. It seemed to me as if he were not sure if he should tell me the truth or not. He finally said that he was a Christian.

Are teachers allowed to read a Bible during break time? Are they allowed to wear any type of religious jewelry – what about a tiny itsy-bitsy cross pin?
What are students allowed to say or not say? If my teacher tells me to write a story about someone who influenced me, can I write about Jesus or does that cross the line? Does freedom of speech end at the school door?

Teachers can do whatever they want on their break time. They just don't get to proselytize on my kid's time.

Jewelry? Nothing wrong with something tasteful. A Cross (or star of david or anything else) the size of the brooklyn bridge shouldn't be allowed just for tackiness.

Students (and teachers) don't get to proselytize on school time. They're free to keep it after school at home and in church and at whatever friends don't want to strangle them for doing it. If they want to say they "admire" a religious figure, nothing wrong with that.

You have to learn to separate between freedom of speech and inserting your religion into the school day. If you can't go from 8 to 3 without praying or proselytizing, you probably don't belong in a public school.

What if I don’t want evolution taught exclusive of any other theory? Should I at least get to have the “still unanswered questions” posed to my child/student as evolution has not answered all questions? What if I still believe that sex education should not be so comprehensively taught. Should I be allowed to opt my child out of sex ed?

Too bad re evolution. Seriously. It's our best scientific knowledge as of now. If you prefer a religious education for your kid, again, public school isn't the place for him/her. Same with sex ed.

Shouldn’t the bible be mentioned in a literature class? It certainly is an old and influential book – whether it is true or not is another matter. What about the influence that Christianity (the belief that early people had about the Bible) had in early America. Can’t that be taught in a history class?

Who's bible? Yours? Mine? Abdallah's next door?

And THAT is why the bible doesn't belong in school. Do you think for a second I want someone in a public school indoctrinating my son that the NT is what he should be following?

Kids should learn about literature in school. They can learn about the bible on their parents' time... unless it's part of a comprehensive comparative theology class.

Along with your comment, these are just some of the many gray areas where other topics and Christianity may overlap. It is just another reason why I support school choice. This would be a moot point if we had school choice. You can take your kids to a satanic school or atheist school or whatever school you like. Hey! Perhaps with a voucher program we could consider keeping the money and home-schooling our kids. Think of the freedom and possibilities. Oh, but wait. Somewhere in some tiny school, a tiny bit of tax money might be used by a teacher who tells a student that God may have created the earth. Horrors.

I don't think it's a grey area at all. Other "topics" and Christianity don't overlap. Christians dogma is IN PLACE of science. It isn't science. When my son goes to Hebrew School, he learns about our religious beliefs. He shouldn't be confused for one second as to the difference between those beliefs and science or between our beliefs and someone elses.

It's not about "horrors". It's about the fact that religion is MINE to teach my child. As it is, my religion is a minority. Do you think I want the majority religion rammed down his throat? And tax money CAN'T be use to indoctrinate him in Christianity or Islam or any other belief system that isn't mine.

I've been meaning to ask you. Do you have kids? Because you seem very nonchalent about all of this. I can tell you as the parent of a child, and a child of a minority religion, I take very seriously the separation of church and State. I don't sweat the small stuff. But I will absolutely speak out if I think the big stuff is encroaching.

 

[mattskramer]

Teachers can do whatever they want on their break time. They just don't get to proselytize on my kid's time.

What if your child notices a teacher reading a Bible during break time and asks her about it. I remember having break time in which we would chat quietly among friends or read books that we brought. Our teacher would sit quietly behind her desk and read. I think that she was reading a Bible or some other religious book. What if I were curious about what she was reading?

Jewelry? Nothing wrong with something tasteful. A Cross (or star of david or anything else) the size of the brooklyn bridge shouldn't be allowed just for tackiness.

At what point does she cross the line? What if the pin were one inch long, 1.5 inches long? Wouldn’t it be safe to outlaw any and all jewelry that might be considered religious? What if there were a teacher whose religious practice required her to wear certain clothing and symbols. Can a Jew wear his skullcap while he teaches? Can a nun wear a habit?

You have to learn to separate between freedom of speech and inserting your religion into the school day. If you can't go from 8 to 3 without praying or proselytizing, you probably don't belong in a public school.

What if the students and teachers are having lunch together – same cafeteria - and the student does a silent prayer before eating, as he traditionally does? Is that okay. What if the teacher, not trying to proselytize, bows her head for a minute or two while silently thinking a prayer before eating? Is that okay?

Too bad re evolution. Seriously. It's our best scientific knowledge as of now. If you prefer a religious education for your kid, again, public school isn't the place for him/her. Same with sex ed.

There are gaps within the theory of evolution. Don’t you think that it would be fair to at least explain that there are still some unanswered questions and leave it at that? Sheesh. Would you at least go that far? I’m willing to compromise. I don’t want public schools to proselytize either, but I do want them to have a well rounded education as complete as practical. That includes at least mentioning that the best way to avoid STD is to not have sex. It includes at least mentioning that Christian belief had a strong influence in America. It includes at least mentioning that there are unanswered questions in the theory of evolution. I don’t think that such comments are out of line.

Who's bible? Yours? Mine? Abdallah's next door?

And THAT is why the bible doesn't belong in school. Do you think for a second I want someone in a public school indoctrinating my son that the NT is what he should be following?

Kids should learn about literature in school. They can learn about the bible on their parents' time... unless it's part of a comprehensive comparative theology class.

It is common knowledge that the founding fathers’ beliefs and their type of application (rightfully or wrongfully) of the teachings within the Judeo-Christian Bible had a very strong influence on early America. So much so that I think that it would be appropriate to at least give it brief mention in a class on American History.

It's not about "horrors". It's about the fact that religion is MINE to teach my child. As it is, my religion is a minority. Do you think I want the majority religion rammed down his throat?

I doubt that anything that I advocated comes anywhere close to “ramming the majority religion down anyone’s throat.

I've been meaning to ask you. Do you have kids? Because you seem very nonchalent about all of this. I can tell you as the parent of a child, and a child of a minority religion, I take very seriously the separation of church and State. I don't sweat the small stuff. But I will absolutely speak out if I think the big stuff is encroaching.

To answer your personal question about me – no, I don’t have any children. Yet, I am agnostic and I am leaning toward atheism. I doubt that my having a child would change my opinion about what should or should not be taught in public school.

 

[William Joyce]

"Just don't have sex", what a bloody stupid, stupid idea.

And yet, many of us manage to stay married.

 

[Diuretic]

And yet, many of us manage to stay married.

Ain't going there

 

[jillian]

Ain't going there

Explains why he's such an angry bugger, though.

 

[Diuretic]

Explains why he's such an angry bugger, though.