Kane's being exploited

[Oddball]

which employs a small number and unemploys billions more you dour, bitter little asshat.

That was the argument of the Luddites....They were wrong and so are you.

BTW, the more technologically advanced societies trend toward lower birth rates, thereby further benefiting from even more mechanization.

Fool.

speaking of fools^^^^^, the the more technologically advanced societies are the ones dependent on a growing workforce to finance their entitlements and debts! While their middle classes are becoming extinct!

The attitudes of entitlement and willingness of some people to go into debt, as a way to assuage those feelings of entitlement, are irrelevant non sequitur.

But you're also free to go get a nice unproductive job as a gubmint bureaucrat, and leech off of those of us doing the economic heavy lifting out in The World.

 

[loosecannon]

Jobs moving overseas can be traced back to government policies. If the government makes it unproductive to manufacture in the U.S. then of course companies are going to move somewhere more business friendly. Marx, however, would have us believe it's class warfare or some such nonsense.

No, dummy, I linked it for you!

Marx would have us believe it was a natural outgrowth of mechanization. Which IS the chief cause of labor's decline, not government policy.

Besides productivity here has been quite high:

" If the government makes it unproductive to manufacture in the U.S. then of cou...."

Yes, and Marx was, of course, wrong. Mechanization is a positive thing.

I wasn't referring to productivity, but as to whether it is productive to own a business in the U.S. with all of the regulations.

whether or not mechanization was a good thing, Marx was clearly, in fact indisputably right:

Marx predicted that capitalism would produce growing misery for workers as competition for profit led capitalists to adopt labor-saving machinery, creating a "reserve army of the unemployed"

 

[loosecannon]

That was the argument of the Luddites....They were wrong and so are you.

BTW, the more technologically advanced societies trend toward lower birth rates, thereby further benefiting from even more mechanization.

Fool.

speaking of fools^^^^^, the the more technologically advanced societies are the ones dependent on a growing workforce to finance their entitlements and debts! While their middle classes are becoming extinct!

The attitudes of entitlement and willingness of some people to go into debt, as a way to assuage those feelings of entitlement, are irrelevant non sequitur.

But you're also free to go get a nice unproductive job as a gubmint bureaucrat, and leech off of those of us doing the economic heavy lifting out in The World.

no matter how you slice it the technologically advanced nations got themselves in a pickle. On the one hand they don't need much of a work force anymore tyo do the "heavy lifting". On the other hand their monetary, pension, and entitlements require an ever expanding workforce that doesn't exist because they don't make many babies.

Everything about that equation is FUBAR. But that's what technologically advanced nations actually DO! The existing world is abundant proof of it.

 

[william the wie]

As a former An-Cap (Abolish the government and let the market rule) I think Loosecannon is stating the right position in the wrong way. Marx also stated in "Das Kapital" that "money is not necessarily gold but gold is necessarily money." and only idiots disagree with that statement.

The economy is increasingly a tournament with the important compensation being stock options. So economic policies based on wages instead of wealth are increasingly out of touch with reality less so in the US than elsewhere in the world but still pathetic. Roth and conventional IRAs are a start but still pretty crappy vehicles for dealing with the 21st century with current limits on contributions. That needs to be changed the restrictions on withdrawals are also too tight. But all in all a much better system than what is in place in the welfare nations.


The US is somewhat higher than ZPG which makes it unique among developed nations. The Far East and South Asia as well as Europe and the FSU are having to automate factories at a furious pace to keep pace with working age population decline. Still workers are needed to run automated factories and in about 2020 the need for sufficient workers at sufficient skill levels will force insourcing to the US.

However at the moment we have 17th century economic machinery such as the Fed that pretends that innovation still proceeds at the pace of the Glorius Revolution of 1688 and that is a problem.

 

[loosecannon]

That was the argument of the Luddites....They were wrong and so are you.

.

The Luddites were 100% correct and the lowest tier in sweat shop labor today is in textiles.

I mean, what could they have possibly said that would have proven more true?

No, they weren't right at all.

Mechanization has improved the lives of people --even textile workers-- as it has increased their general level of wealth through higher productivity. Moreover, it created specialized --meaning higher paying-- work in the fields of designing, manufacturing, installing and maintaining machines.

But technophobes like you are still free to go live with the Amish, if you like.

Mechanization may have improved their lives.

But the Luddites were still 100% correct in predicting it would reduce the value of their skilled labor and destroy their guild niche, or monopoly.

You have about a .010 batting average, are you a masochist?

 

[blu]

this thread is one of my favorite discussions to have. While the effects of machinery/technology can be noticed today and argued, they are nothing to what is going to come in the next 100 years.

Everything will be mechanic, robots will replace 90% of the manual labor workforce, automated processors will replace secretaries, assistants and other "paper pushers" as computers become smart enough to OCR any type of document(s) and then be programmed to distribute that material as necessary to forms, clients, etc. Even the military won't be an option for the unskilled as the only humans that will be in war zones are repair men, programmers, and engineers. The entire war will fought from a computer screen thousands of miles away (this is already happening to an extent) and there simply won't be a need for foot soldiers, pilots, etc.

I hope I am around to see it when it comes, because it will be quite interesting when there is 75% or more unemployment world wide. current systems of economics will simply crumble. If they ever pull quantum computers off this revolution will only come faster.

 

[loosecannon]

tu tru, Blu

 

[uscitizen]

Rosebud......

 

[asterism]

wrong. Marx didn't lament the power of mechanization. He simply and accurately predicted a century in advance of our time that it would lead to the disempowerment of labor, the declining value of goods produced, declining profits of capitalists and inevitable boom and bust cycles.

Notice the focus on "labor." While you may not consider typical office work to be labor, I can say that I've fixed machines, built houses, dug ditches, installed pools, and hauled trash. None of that can compare to building a corporate network in 1998. I'd have gladly traded places with the guy hanging drywall.

He was a prophet. And nearly everybody in the know recognizes it, despite their harsh disdain for his political ideas.

Who are those "in the know" and can we get a link to their affirmations? Which successful economy has ever been based on his views?

 

[loosecannon]

Who are those "in the know" and can we get a link to their affirmations? Which successful economy has ever been based on his views?

the federal reserve, already linked, and all of them.

 

[loosecannon]

wrong. Marx didn't lament the power of mechanization. He simply and accurately predicted a century in advance of our time that it would lead to the disempowerment of labor, the declining value of goods produced, declining profits of capitalists and inevitable boom and bust cycles.

Notice the focus on "labor." While you may not consider typical office work to be labor, I can say that I've fixed machines, built houses, dug ditches, installed pools, and hauled trash. None of that can compare to building a corporate network in 1998. I'd have gladly traded places with the guy hanging drywall.

great, Jimenez. Here is your $12 an hour, please meet the INS in the parking lot.

 

[asterism]

Because of my legal status as an independent contractor, as opposed to a company employee, I am often asked if I feel that it is fair that I do not receive employer-provided benefits like health insurance and a retirement program. Why is it that I should be responsible for securing those services myself and not my employer? Gasp, don’t I feel as if I’m being exploited?!

Isn’t it ironic that even after history has proven his theories wrong, dangerous, and potentially suicidal, Karl Marx still influences so much of contemporary economic thought?

Help, Help, I’m Being Exploited!! by Glenn Jacobs

The Senate passed a bill this week that will allow self employed people to write of their health care insurance.



And he is welcome to have his own retirement fund...

Still waiting for the last round of "small business tax cuts" to make its way onto my Form 1120. So far it's not there. Why is that?

As to this just passed bill, you are mistaken. AMT hasn't been indexed so those write offs are cancelled. But I do get a 35% tax credit if I impose a company sponsored healthcare plan on my employees. Of course this is only on premiums I pay, all plans available to me require 100% enrollment which means I have to participate also, and they all have higher premiums than the plans anyone in my company currently have.

What next, I can only get a mortgage payment equal to that of my employees and they are all higher than we all pay for less house? I have to have a car payment equal to that of my employees for a GM?

Some "tax cut."

 

[loosecannon]

Notice the focus on "labor." While you may not consider typical office work to be labor, I can say that I've fixed machines, built houses, dug ditches, installed pools, and hauled trash. None of that can compare to building a corporate network in 1998. I'd have gladly traded places with the guy hanging drywall.

and thanks to blu you will both be replaced with robots in 2 years. enjoy unemployment!

 

[asterism]

You mean labor unions are becoming increasingly irrelevant, not that labor itself is becoming irrelevant.

NO! I mean labor is increasingly incapable of wielding any bargaining power whatsoever. What were once middle class American jobs with bennies are increasingly becoming sweat shop jobs in Asia.

My plumber disagrees.

And profits as a whole have shifted from manufacturing toward distribution and retail.

A natural effect of an educated workforce. As it turns out the money is in sales and efficiency, not so much in assembly. I don't see the problem here. You're describing the problem stockbrokers had in the 1970s with mutual funds, and wagon builders had with Henry Ford.

 

[asterism]

Notice the focus on "labor." While you may not consider typical office work to be labor, I can say that I've fixed machines, built houses, dug ditches, installed pools, and hauled trash. None of that can compare to building a corporate network in 1998. I'd have gladly traded places with the guy hanging drywall.

and thanks to blu you will both be replaced with robots in 2 years. enjoy unemployment!

I've been told that for 25 years. I'm still employed.

 

[asterism]

wrong. Marx didn't lament the power of mechanization. He simply and accurately predicted a century in advance of our time that it would lead to the disempowerment of labor, the declining value of goods produced, declining profits of capitalists and inevitable boom and bust cycles.

Notice the focus on "labor." While you may not consider typical office work to be labor, I can say that I've fixed machines, built houses, dug ditches, installed pools, and hauled trash. None of that can compare to building a corporate network in 1998. I'd have gladly traded places with the guy hanging drywall.

great, Jimenez. Here is your $12 an hour, please meet the INS in the parking lot.

$12 an hour is a pretty good rate for a job that doesn't require any education and can be picked up in a few months. It's a living wage and it's honest work. I see no problem with that.

The American dream used to be a car in every driveway and a chicken in every pot. I've done that on $12 an hour.

 

[Ravi]

Help, Help, I’m Being Exploited!! by Glenn Jacobs

The Senate passed a bill this week that will allow self employed people to write of their health care insurance.



And he is welcome to have his own retirement fund...

Still waiting for the last round of "small business tax cuts" to make its way onto my Form 1120. So far it's not there. Why is that?

Maybe you need a new accountant.

 

[Oddball]

wrong. Marx didn't lament the power of mechanization. He simply and accurately predicted a century in advance of our time that it would lead to the disempowerment of labor, the declining value of goods produced, declining profits of capitalists and inevitable boom and bust cycles.

Notice the focus on "labor." While you may not consider typical office work to be labor, I can say that I've fixed machines, built houses, dug ditches, installed pools, and hauled trash. None of that can compare to building a corporate network in 1998. I'd have gladly traded places with the guy hanging drywall.

great, Jimenez. Here is your $12 an hour, please meet the INS in the parking lot.

Nothing says "elitist snob" better than looking down one's nose at someone at the lower rungs of the economic ladder, and seeing nothing but a helpless little victim in desperate need of your "benevolent patronage".

 

[Oddball]

Mechanization may have improved their lives.

But the Luddites were still 100% correct in predicting it would reduce the value of their skilled labor and destroy their guild niche, or monopoly.

You have about a .010 batting average, are you a masochist?

Interesting that you consider a monopoly in the world of obsolescent trades to be any kind of a benefit to anyone.

If you consider wheel & wainwrights, operators of hand looms and horse drawn plows as "skilled labor" then you're so far gone down the black hole of technophobia that a description of "pathetic" would be an improvement.

 

[loosecannon]

Mechanization may have improved their lives.

But the Luddites were still 100% correct in predicting it would reduce the value of their skilled labor and destroy their guild niche, or monopoly.

You have about a .010 batting average, are you a masochist?

Interesting that you consider a monopoly in the world of obsolescent trades to be any kind of a benefit to anyone.

If you consider wheel & wainwrights, operators of hand looms and horse drawn plows as "skilled labor" then you're so far gone down the black hole of technophobia that a description of "pathetic" would be an improvement.

well thaaats the world the Luddites lived in and they were correct. Their profession went to one of being highly skilled and high paying to being one monopolized by child labor. Go figure.