Kalam, questions

[JBeukema]

Kalam already refuted your claims. Until you offer a rebuttal to his response and demonstrate that his assertions are flawed, you are dismissed.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Wild guess, Im the self important tool,

No, you're just funny. Your raison d'être seems to be telling us all about how Islam is an evil religion - I find it hilarious that you devote your entire online existence to this singular purpose.

So what is nasikh
In your own words with sources to back up your opinion, if you would be so kind

See above post.

Well great Im glad I can make your life more enjoyable, Thanks again for reading my post.
Nasikh is how Islam deals with the contridictions in the Quran older verse replace newer verses in the event of a disagreement in concept.
How does one know which is early and which is later?
By consulting the earliest know work Sirat rasul Allah, a book Kalam rejects .As he also rejects hadith , because he claims they contradict the Quran,That is a very convenient excuse to avoid any criticism of Islam. it is unassailable, undefeatable ignorance.

2:106. Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allâh is able to do all things?
The Noble Quran : Surat 2

16:101. And when We change a Verse [of the Qur'ân, i.e. cancel (abrogate) its order] in place of another, and Allâh knows the best of what He sends down, they (the disbelievers) say: "You (O Muhammad SAW) are but a Muftari! (forger, liar)." Nay, but most of them know not.

The Noble Quran : Surat 16

Kalam claims abrogation is a false doctrine,Why?
Is he ignorant or is he a liar?
You decide.

An example of the abrogation: there are 124 versus that call for tolerance and patience which have been canceled and replaced by this one single verse:

9.5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

 

[Kalam]

Well great Im glad I can make your life more enjoyable, Thanks again for reading my post.
Nasikh is how Islam deals with the contridictions in the Quran older verse replace newer verses in the event of a disagreement in concept.

Interpreted correctly, the Qur'an contains no contradictions. The only abrogation that took place was the Qur'an superseding earlier scriptures.

How does one know which is early and which is later?
By consulting the earliest know work Sirat rasul Allah, a book Kalam rejects .As he also rejects hadith , because he claims they contradict the Quran,That is a very convenient excuse to avoid any criticism of Islam. it is unassailable, undefeatable ignorance.

Ignorance? Do you believe that I simply rejected ahadith out of hand before studying them first? I only reject ahadith that I know to be out of harmony with the message of the Qur'an. I continually try to read from different hadith collections in an attempt to discover which ahadith have merit and which do not. I'm planning on starting "Peak of Eloquence," a Shi'a collection, soon.

Your suggestion that one must believe in the entire body of a given sect's favored hadith collections to be a Muslim is ridiculous. There are Muslims that reject all ahadith entirely.

Qur'an alone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2:106. Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allâh is able to do all things?
The Noble Quran : Surat 2

16:101. And when We change a Verse [of the Qur'ân, i.e. cancel (abrogate) its order] in place of another, and Allâh knows the best of what He sends down, they (the disbelievers) say: "You (O Muhammad SAW) are but a Muftari! (forger, liar)." Nay, but most of them know not.

Both of these passages are specifically addressed in my post regarding abrogation, post 76 of this thread. Did you not bother reading it before offering the very verses it discusses as evidence?

Kalam claims abrogation is a false doctrine,Why?
Is he ignorant or is he a liar?
You decide.

False dichotomy. I reject abrogation because I'm familiar with the Qur'an and its message.

An example of the abrogation: there are 124 versus that call for tolerance and patience which have been canceled and replaced by this one single verse:

9.5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Even if we were to assume that abrogation wasn't a false doctrine (which it is, see post 76,) your analysis of 9:5 is inaccurate. Here is a portion of something I wrote elsewhere, briefly discussing the ninth Sura and the context of the so-called "verse of the sword":

The 9th Sura, titled "The Repentence" or "The Immunity" describes Muslims' dealings with idolatrous tribes. It begins by saying:

A declaration of immunity from Allah and His Messenger to those of the Idolaters with whom you made an agreement.

It's established from the beginning of the Sura that all tribes with whom the Muslims have an agreement of peace (ie: all of those who aren't trying to destroy them) are to be dealt with peaceably. This is reiterated in the 4th verse:

Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you; so fulfil their agreement to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves those who keep their duty.

(...irrelevant portion omitted...)

Moving on to 9:6 -

And if anyone of the idolaters seek thy protection, protect him till he hears the word of Allah, then convey him to his place of safety. This is because they are a people who know not.

Muslims are required by the Qur'an to offer refuge to those who seek it, even if they're idolaters and members of an enemy tribe or nation. They must introduce the refugee to Islam, which he can accept or reject, and then they must take him to a safe place. How horrible.

Regarding the idolaters with whom the Muslims shared peaceful relations:

How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with his Messenger, except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them. Surely Allah loves those who keep their duty. - 9:7

Verses 12 and 13 make it clear that war is to be waged only against the idolaters who break their agreements with Muslims and attack Islam:

And if they break their oaths after their agreement and revile your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief -- surely their oaths are nothing -- so that they may desist. - 9:12

Will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and aimed at the expulsion of the Messenger, and they attacked you first? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right than you should fear Him, if you are believers. - 9:13

These verses have absolutely nothing to do with proselytization, and to suggest they do or that they encourage violence against innocent non-Muslims is an outright lie.

​

 

[Kalam]

I find it interesting that kalam is the one who always ends up having to defend Islam from these moronic puppets, given his 'non-traditional' interpretation.

Well, there aren't many of us here, and I don't blame Sunni Man for choosing not to waste his time with these individuals.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

That certain verses of the Qur'an are abrogated by others is now an exploded theory. The two passages on which it was supposed to rest, refer, really, to the abrogation, not of the Qur'an but of the previous revelations whose place the Holy Book had taken.



Thus, abrogation is a false doctrine.

2:106. Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allâh is able to do all things?
The Noble Quran : Surat 2
The Noble Quran : Surat 2

16:101. And when We change a Verse [of the Qur'ân, i.e. cancel (abrogate) its order] in place of another, and Allâh knows the best of what He sends down, they (the disbelievers) say: "You (O Muhammad SAW) are but a Muftari! (forger, liar)." Nay, but most of them know not.


The Noble Quran : Surat 16

Clearly "allah" "Islamic scholars" and the "companions" of the "prophet disagree with your assertion.

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

The message of the Quran is" surrender or die"

The Noble Qur’an
translation by Muhammad Khan and distributed by “King Fahd Complex for the Printing of the Holy Qur’an—The Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Concerning the link in prior post

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Ibn Kathir born in 1302 AD was scholar of History and a mufassir (Qur'an commentator) . He was renowned for his great memory regarding the sayings of Muhammad and the entire Qur'an.

Ibn Kathir wrote a famous commentary of the Qur'an named Tafsir ibn Kathir which linked certain Hadith, or sayings of Muhammad, and sayings of the sahaba to verses of the Qur'an, in explanation. Tafsir Ibn Kathir is famous all over the Muslim world and among Muslims in the Western world, and is one of the most widely used explanations of the Qu'ran today. This site introduces the reader to one of the most Authentic books for explaining the Quran using both arabic and english text to grasp the understanding of the Quran.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Quran Tafsir - Home

Tafsir Ibn Kathir is one of the Most Comprehensive and Complete Explanation of The Noble Quran.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir (10 Vols) - Dar-us-Salam.com

Something kalam will of course reject because it is his duty to lie.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/AlexandraParis60203.htm

 

[Kalam]

That certain verses of the Qur'an are abrogated by others is now an exploded theory. The two passages on which it was supposed to rest, refer, really, to the abrogation, not of the Qur'an but of the previous revelations whose place the Holy Book had taken.

Thus, abrogation is a false doctrine.

2:106. Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allâh is able to do all things?


16:101. And when We change a Verse [of the Qur'ân, i.e. cancel (abrogate) its order] in place of another, and Allâh knows the best of what He sends down, they (the disbelievers) say: "You (O Muhammad SAW) are but a Muftari! (forger, liar)." Nay, but most of them know not.

Oh my god. Read the entire passage, you moron.

The passages you continue to post are specifically discussed.

Clearly "allah" "Islamic scholars" and the "companions" of the "prophet disagree with your assertion.

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Some "scholars" may disagree, but my opinion is in accordance with fact and the Qur'an itself. Also, if you took the time to read the passage I've now reference dover five times, disproving abrogation, you'd see that the most well-informed scholars agree with me on the issue. The author of the passage produced much of what is easily some of the best English-language Islamic writing in spite of our ideological differences.

The message of the Quran is" surrender or die"

Disproved in my previous post. Address each of my points specifically or admit that you're unable to.

The Noble Qur’an
translation by Muhammad Khan and distributed by “King Fahd Complex for the Printing of the Holy Qur’an—The Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques.

The Qur'anic translation you cite received the Saudi Wahhabi seal of approval? No wonder it's no good.

 

[Kalam]

Concerning the link in prior post

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Ibn Kathir born in 1302 AD was scholar of History and a mufassir (Qur'an commentator) . He was renowned for his great memory regarding the sayings of Muhammad and the entire Qur'an.

Ibn Kathir wrote a famous commentary of the Qur'an named Tafsir ibn Kathir which linked certain Hadith, or sayings of Muhammad, and sayings of the sahaba to verses of the Qur'an, in explanation. Tafsir Ibn Kathir is famous all over the Muslim world and among Muslims in the Western world, and is one of the most widely used explanations of the Qu'ran today. This site introduces the reader to one of the most Authentic books for explaining the Quran using both arabic and english text to grasp the understanding of the Quran.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Quran Tafsir - Home

Tafsir Ibn Kathir is one of the Most Comprehensive and Complete Explanation of The Noble Quran.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir (10 Vols) - Dar-us-Salam.com

Something kalam will of course reject because it is his duty to lie.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/AlexandraParis60203.htm

I reject Ibn Kathir and similar mufassirun because their "explanations" are rooted in unauthentic ahadith.

Of course you call me a liar. You're frustrated that you can't touch my sect's beliefs and true Islam with the garbage you sling at other Muslims, so you label me a liar or a fake Muslim in order to save face and to avoid looking like the imbecile you are. I've seen it all before - as I said, you people are a dime a dozen.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

I find it interesting that kalam is the one who always ends up having to defend Islam from these moronic puppets, given his 'non-traditional' interpretation.

Well, there aren't many of us here, and I don't blame Sunni Man for choosing not to waste his time with these individuals.

I dont blame him either , he understands that he cannot use scripture to justify his opinions .

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Concerning the link in prior post

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Ibn Kathir born in 1302 AD was scholar of History and a mufassir (Qur'an commentator) . He was renowned for his great memory regarding the sayings of Muhammad and the entire Qur'an.

Ibn Kathir wrote a famous commentary of the Qur'an named Tafsir ibn Kathir which linked certain Hadith, or sayings of Muhammad, and sayings of the sahaba to verses of the Qur'an, in explanation. Tafsir Ibn Kathir is famous all over the Muslim world and among Muslims in the Western world, and is one of the most widely used explanations of the Qu'ran today. This site introduces the reader to one of the most Authentic books for explaining the Quran using both arabic and english text to grasp the understanding of the Quran.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Quran Tafsir - Home

Tafsir Ibn Kathir is one of the Most Comprehensive and Complete Explanation of The Noble Quran.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir (10 Vols) - Dar-us-Salam.com

Something kalam will of course reject because it is his duty to lie.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/AlexandraParis60203.htm

I reject Ibn Kathir and similar mufassirun because their "explanations" are rooted in unauthentic ahadith.

Of course you call me a liar. You're frustrated that you can't touch my sect's beliefs and true Islam with the garbage you sling at other Muslims, so you label me a liar or a fake Muslim in order to save face and to avoid looking like the imbecile you are. I've seen it all before - as I said, you people are a dime a dozen.

You sect Mu'tazili hasn't had any influence in 1162 years.
I dont blame you for beginning to study shia , you can drop the one deviant sect for another, in you journey to Islam.

If you had scripture to back up your opinions , you would post the links .

 

[Kalam]

You sect Mu'tazili hasn't had any influence in 1162 years.

That's true. However, I don't choose to affiliate with a particular sect simply because they're popular and powerful.

I dont blame you for beginning to study shia , you can drop the one deviant sect for another, in you journey to Islam.

I'm reading The Peak of Eloquence so that I can begin reading Ibn Abi al-Hadid's commentary on it. He was a Mu'tazilite as well.

If you had scripture to back up your opinions , you would post the links .

I have...

 

[Kalam]

I find it interesting that kalam is the one who always ends up having to defend Islam from these moronic puppets, given his 'non-traditional' interpretation.

Well, there aren't many of us here, and I don't blame Sunni Man for choosing not to waste his time with these individuals.

I dont blame him either , he understands that he cannot use scripture to justify his opinions .

Sunni Man has shown that he's perfectly capable of defending his beliefs with scripture. IMO, it says more about you than it does about him when he decides that you aren't worth his time and effort.

 

[JBeukema]

How did my asking Kalam about his personal beliefs turn into a thread about attacking Kalam and organized Islam's major sekts?

 

[Liability]

How did my asking Kalam about his personal beliefs turn into a thread about attacking Kalam and organized Islam's major sekts?

Sekts.

Check.

The pure genius of all things JPukeenema is revealed time and time again.

 

[JBeukema]

Because I prefer an alternative spelling? I also use British rules regarding the use of quotations; what's your point?

That you result to such pathetic attacks merely highlights your ignorance and inability to provide an intelligent and meaningful response.

 

[JBeukema]

There is no need for the letter 'c' in our language.

 

[Liability]

Because I prefer an alternative spelling? I also use British rules regarding the use of quotations; what's your point?

That you result to such pathetic attacks merely highlights your ignorance and inability to provide an intelligent and meaningful response.

Sparkling wine.

 

[Kalam]

There is no need for the letter 'c' in our language.

For the consonant cluster /ch/, I guess?

 

[JBeukema]

There is no need for the letter 'c' in our language.

For the consonant cluster /ch/, I guess?

We could simply have a letter for it, much like thorn (þ) served us before we scrapped it in favor of 'th'. If we simply had one letter for each sound (like dictionaries use for pronunciation keys), we could greatly simplify our written language.

 

[Kalam]

There is no need for the letter 'c' in our language.

For the consonant cluster /ch/, I guess?

We could simply have a letter for it, much like thorn (þ) served us before we scrapped it in favor of 'th'. If we simply had one letter for each sound (like dictionaries use for pronunciation keys), we could greatly simplify our written language.

Yeah, I wouldn't oppose that. The transition would take forever, though; we haven't even begun using the metric system.