Kalam, questions

[Mr.Fitnah]

Simple enough.


It was already proved that ISLAM (not just the Qur'an) permits lying as long as it is for the benefit of Islam.

It was already established, despite your wilfully false denial, that the doctrine of Abrogation is entirely endorsed by the Qur'an. Thus, you are a liar.

If you wish to shut yourself up, that's cool. You'd certainly be guilty of committing fewer lies if you'd shut your yap, you unpersuasive lying dufus.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-hA59eiySI]YouTube - Islam - War Is Deceit[/ame]

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

YouTube - Islam forbids "FITNAH"

As you can see, I'm dealing with enough garbage as it is. If you have something to say, please say it, because I don't have time for a video.

You don't seem understand your purpose here, you are nothing but a tool here for me to use to reveal what Islam is ,
Your diversions distraction and delusions though touching , do not concern me.

 

[Kalam]

You don't seem understand your purpose here, you are nothing but a tool here for me to use to reveal what Islam is ,
Your diversions distraction and delusions though touching , do not concern me.

Oh, God. I haven't read a forum post that has made me laugh out loud in quite some time. Thanks for that. If you think that dealing with pissants like you and liabullshit amounts to anything more than swatting at flies, you're sadly mistaken.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 267:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "Khosrau will be ruined, and there will be no Khosrau after him, and Caesar will surely be ruined and there will be no Caesar after him, and you will spend their treasures in Allah's Cause." He called, "War is deceit'.

----------
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 268:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle called,: "War is deceit".

----------
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 269:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

The Prophet said, "War is deceit."

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

You don't seem understand your purpose here, you are nothing but a tool here for me to use to reveal what Islam is ,
Your diversions distraction and delusions though touching , do not concern me.

Oh, God. I haven't read a forum post that has made me laugh out loud in quite some time. Thanks for that. If you think that dealing with pissants like you and liabullshit amounts to anything more than swatting at flies, you're sadly mistaken.

Good, then you will be useful for some time.

 

[Liability]

You don't seem understand your purpose here, you are nothing but a tool here for me to use to reveal what Islam is ,
Your diversions distraction and delusions though touching , do not concern me.

Oh, God. I haven't read a forum post that has made me laugh out loud in quite some time. Thanks for that. If you think that dealing with pissants like you and liabullshit amounts to anything more than swatting at flies, you're sadly mistaken.

Aww. Isn't that precious. Kalam is so upset that he's reverting to his true nature.

the reason you find me so disturbing, Kalam, is because you have no ability to spread your fertilizer when I so readily expose you for the fraud you are.

By the way, you ducked it before, so here it is again:

The QUR'AN contradicts the QUR'AN. Thus, according to your claim, the QUR'AN must be un-Islamic.

Swat at that one, you manure spreader.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

"Fitnah" in a Qur'anic context describes persecution, strife, and purposeful antagonism towards Islam. Fighting is permitted in response to this as it should be, but must desist as soon as the persecution ends as mentioned in this passage and numerous others.

.

SOurce

You can't type it into Google yourself?

Fitna (word) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wow ! looks like fitnah could be anything a muslim doesn't like

Ibn al-Atheer said: “Fitnah: trial or test… The word is often used to describe tests in which something disliked is eliminated. Later it was also often used in the sense of sin, kufr (disbelief), fighting, burning, removing and diverting.” (al-Nihaayah, 3/410. Ibn Hajar said something similar in al-Fath, 13/3).

Ibn al-A’raabi summed up the meanings of fitnah when he said: “Fitnah means testing, fitnah means trial, fitnah means wealth, fitnah means children, fitnah means kufr, fitnah means differences of opinion among people, fitnah means burning with fire.” (Lisaan al-‘Arab by Ibn Manzoor).

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1341142-post51.html

 

[Kalam]

Aww. Isn't that precious. Kalam is so upset that he's reverting to his true nature.

the reason you find me so disturbing, Kalam, is because you have no ability to spread your fertilizer when I so readily expose you for the fraud you are.

I know, dude, discussing Islam with an esteemed scholar of your intellectual caliber is like debating astrophysics with Hawking.

Lord knows I'll be screwed if another self-important tool who read all about Islam on the internet comes here to expose my nefarious scheme to lie about my religion and convert the entire USMB.

By the way, you ducked it before, so here it is again:

The QUR'AN contradicts the QUR'AN. Thus, according to your claim, the QUR'AN must be un-Islamic.

No, buddy, I pointed out on about three separate occasions that I'd already responded to this. Once again, see the linked post. Quote the linked post. Respond to the linked post. I'm not sure if I can dumb it down any more for you.

Swat at that one, you manure spreader.

Will do. It isn't as if this requires a great deal of effort on my part.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Lord knows I'll be screwed if another self-important tool who read all about Islam on the internet comes here to expose my nefarious scheme to lie about my religion and convert the entire USMB.

Wild guess, Im the self important tool, So what is nasikh
In your own words with sources to back up your opinion, if you would be so kind

 

[Liability]

* * * *

Lord knows I'll be screwed if another self-important tool who read all about Islam on the internet comes here to expose my nefarious scheme to lie about my religion and convert the entire USMB.

By the way, you ducked it before, so here it is again:

The QUR'AN contradicts the QUR'AN. Thus, according to your claim, the QUR'AN must be un-Islamic.

No, buddy, I pointed out on about three separate occasions that I'd already responded to this. Once again, see the linked post. Quote the linked post. Respond to the linked post. I'm not sure if I can dumb it down any more for you.

Swat at that one, you manure spreader.

Will do. It isn't as if this requires a great deal of effort on my part.

LOL!

You didn't answer it at all. And we can all plainly see as much. No need to dumb anything down. You've got the market on dumb covered nicely here.

Your lies are so plodding and transparent that they are losing any ability to be anything but laughable.

YOU are the one who claimed that ANYTHING that contradicts the Qur'an is un-Islamic. I pointed out that the QUR'AN itself contradicts the Qur'an. Thus, according to your idiot's logic, the Quran is Un-Islamic.

(And if you need quotes from the Qur'an where it clearly engages in self-contradiction, although Mr. Fitnah already showed them to you, I will happily dig them up for you again.)

You have offered zero response to this observation because, as we can all see, you are unable to do so.



An idiot Muslim "defending" Islam from the truth about Islam. Yeah. That truth thing REALLY bothers you defenders of that faith.

This is terrific stuff. Please post much more often!

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Its really something isn't it?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

I suppose it will soon be time for Mr Kalam to put away his keyboard and really start acting like a believer.

9:111. Verily, Allâh has purchased of the believers their lives and their properties; for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise. They fight in Allâh's Cause, so they kill (others) and are killed. It is a promise in truth which is binding on Him in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) and the Qur'ân. And who is truer to his covenant than Allâh? Then rejoice in the bargain which you have concluded. That is the supreme success

9:112. (The believers whose lives Allâh has purchased are) those who repent to Allâh (from polytheism and hypocrisy, etc.), who worship Him, who praise Him, who fast (or go out in Allâh's Cause), who bow down (in prayer), who prostrate themselves (in prayer), who enjoin (people) for Al-Ma'rûf (i.e. Islâmic Monotheism and all what Islâm has ordained) and forbid (people) from Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief, polytheism of all kinds and all that Islâm has forbidden), and who observe the limits set by Allâh (do all that Allâh has ordained and abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which Allâh has forbidden). And give glad tidings to the believers

 

[JBeukema]

Muhammad's message, the Qur'an, was intended for the entire world due to his status as the "Seal of the Prophets."

.

What specifically was that seal?

It just means, that he was and is, the last and final Prophet sent to mankind.

Save for the two who will return..

 

[JBeukema]

Muslim activists also fail to reveal to people in the West a major doctrine in Islam called "al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh" (the Abrogator and the Abrogated). This simply means that when a recent verse in the Quran gives a contradictory view to another verse that preceded it (chronologically), the recent verse abrogates (cancels and replaces) the old verse and renders it null and void.

Just as the Qu'ran overrides the NT, which overrides the OT?

 

[Liability]

Muslim activists also fail to reveal to people in the West a major doctrine in Islam called "al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh" (the Abrogator and the Abrogated). This simply means that when a recent verse in the Quran gives a contradictory view to another verse that preceded it (chronologically), the recent verse abrogates (cancels and replaces) the old verse and renders it null and void.

Just as the Qu'ran overrides the NT, which overrides the OT?

The Qur'an overrides only portions of itself. It has no ability to override the New Testament.

To whatever extent Islam makes that claim, it is as empty as the protests that there is no Quar'anic support for lying on behalf of Islam or for denying that the doctrine of Abrogation does change the Quar'an internally.

 

[Kalam]

You didn't answer it at all.

I did. Two months ago, actually.

My point was that your platitudinous claims regarding abrogation were refuted some time ago. I thought I provided a link, but given your apparent inability to follow it, I'll simply quote my post here.

Yes, Muslims always pull this crap out too.

Keep in mind the Koran is arranged according to the size of the books, but that the newer additions ALWAYS supercede the older.

There is no such thing as abrogation in the Qur'an. The Qur'an itself makes this clear in 4:82 - "Will they not then meditate on the Qur’an? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy." Moreover, two of the three suwar I cited, al-Baqara and al-Anfal, were revealed in Madinah, after hostilities had already commenced between the Muslims and the persecuting Quraish. Al-Baqara in particular contains most of the Qur'an's guidance pertaining to dealing with enemies. The only verse I cited that was revealed in Makkah was one of the last revealed in that city, after the Quraish had been actively persecuting the Muslims there for some time. If any of the verses I referred to are "superceded" as you suggest, please show me the verses that supposedly take precedence over them. In 1936, Muslim leader and scholar Maulana Muhammad Ali wrote the following on the subject of abrogation:

That certain verses of the Qur'an are abrogated by others is now an exploded theory. The two passages on which it was supposed to rest, refer, really, to the abrogation, not of the Qur'an but of the previous revelations whose place the Holy Book had taken. The first verse is contained in the sixteenth chapter (al-Nahl) - a Makkah revelation - and runs thus: "And when We change a message for a message, - and Allah knows best what He reveals - they say: Thou art only a forger" (16:101). It is a fact that details of the Islamic law were revealed at Madinah and it is in relation to these details that the theory of abrogation has been broached. Therefore, a Makkah revelation would not speak of abrogation. But the reference in the above verse is to the abrogation, not of the Qur'anic verses but of the previous Divine messages or revelations, consequent upon revelation of the Qur'an. The context shows this clearly to be the case, for the opponents are here made to say that the Prophet was a forger. He was so accused by the opponents not because he announced the abrogation of certain verses in the Qur'an but because he claimed that the Qur'an was a divine revelation which had taken the place of previous revelations. They argued that it was not a revelation at all: "Only a mortal teaches him" (16:103). According to them the whole of the Qur'an, and not merely a particular verse of it, was a forgery. The theory of abrogation, therefore, cannot be based on this verse which speaks only of one revelation or one law taking the place of another.

The other verse which is supposed to lend support to the theory runs thus: "Whatever message we abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or one like it" (2:106). A reference to the context will show that the Jews or the followers of previous revelations are here addressed. Of these it is said: "they say: We believe in that which was revealed to us; and they deny what is besides that" (2:91). So they were told that if a certain revelation was abrogated, it was only to give place to a better one. And there is mention not only of abrogation but also of something that was forgotten. The words "or cause to be forgotten" cannot refer to the Qur'an at all because no portion of it could be said to have been forgotten so as to require a new revelation in its place. There is no point in supposing that God should make the Prophet forget a verse and then reveal a new one in its place. Why not, if he really had forgotten a verse, remind him of the one forgotten? But even if it is supposed that his memory ever failed in retaining (which really never happened), that verse was quite safely preserved in writing, and the mere failure of memory could not necessitate a new revelation. That the Prophet never forgot what was recited to him is plainly stated in the Qur'an: "We shall make the recite, so thou shalt not forget" (87:6). History also bears out the fact that he never forgot any portion of the Qur'anic revelation. Sometimes the whole of a very long chapter would be revealed to him in one portion, as in the case of the sixth chapter which extends over twenty sections, but he would cause it to be written without delay, and make his companions learn it by heart, and recite it in public prayers, and that without the change of even a letter, notwithstanding the fact that he himself could not read from a written copy, nor did the written copies, as a rule, remain in his possession. It was a miracle indeed that he never forgot any portion of the Qur'an, though other things he might forget, and it is to his forgetfulness in other things that the words except what Allah pleases, in the next verse (87:7), refer. On the other hand, it is a fact that parts of the older revelations had been utterly lost and forgotten, and thus the Qur'an was needed to take the place of that which was abrogated, and that which had been forgotten by the world.

Almost without exception, it is only the older books which call for peace...because at the times being written about, Mohommed was a minority and struggling to come up through the ranks. As he became a more powerful warlord, his directives became quite a bit less warm and fuzzy, and always with the direction that when the books are in conflict, always go by the newest one.

The message of the Qur'an is consistent throughout its entirety. As I said, all of the verses I cited were revealed after the worst of the persecution faced by Muhammad and his followers had begun. Your abrogation argument was proved false quite some time ago.

Guess what? The more recent books are not about peace, love and honor. They are about butchery, lying, and war.

Guess what? That, like most of your half-baked remarks, is untrue.

The next-to-last surah to be revealed tells Muslims to respect their alliances with disbelievers. The surah immediately preceding that tells us that if someone kills an innocent person, "it is as though he had killed all men." It also explains that all people who believe and do good, not just Muslims, will be rewarded. So much for "butchery, lying, and war." You don't know anything about Islam or the Qur'an; you merely regurgitate the ridiculous bullshit fed to you by ignorant Islamophobes.

Thus, abrogation is a false doctrine.

 

[Kalam]

Wild guess, Im the self important tool,

No, you're just funny. Your raison d'être seems to be telling us all about how Islam is an evil religion - I find it hilarious that you devote your entire online existence to this singular purpose.

So what is nasikh
In your own words with sources to back up your opinion, if you would be so kind

See above post.

 

[Kalam]

I suppose it will soon be time for Mr Kalam to put away his keyboard and really start acting like a believer.

Yeah, don't look now, but there are some Islamic bogeymen under your bed.

 

[JBeukema]

I find it interesting that kalam is the one who always ends up having to defend Islam from these moronic puppets, given his 'non-traditional' interpretation.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Muslim activists also fail to reveal to people in the West a major doctrine in Islam called "al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh" (the Abrogator and the Abrogated). This simply means that when a recent verse in the Quran gives a contradictory view to another verse that preceded it (chronologically), the recent verse abrogates (cancels and replaces) the old verse and renders it null and void.

Just as the Qu'ran overrides the NT, which overrides the OT?

Islam claims to abrogate ,Mohammad has no real claim to the line of Abraham he can not trace his line back to Abraham.
Mohammed is not a Prophet of God.
He is a founder of s street gang called Islam.

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 163(a):
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

That the Prophet said, "My livelihood is under the shade of my spear (from war booty), and he who disobeys my orders will be humiliated by paying the Jizya.