Justices Grant Leeway to Churches in Job Bias Laws

ladyliberal

Progressive Princess
Aug 5, 2011
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(crossposted from law and justice)


Edit: link changed to http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/12/u...-exception-to-job-discrimination-laws.html?hp
(old link: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/12/us...s.html?_r=1&hp)


WASHINGTON — In what may be its most significant religious liberty decision in two decades, the Supreme Court on Wednesday for the first time recognized a “ministerial exception” to employment discrimination laws, saying that churches and other religious groups must be free to choose and dismiss their leaders without government interference.
What do people think? The justices basically said unanimously (there were concurrences, but no dissents) that religious organizations were allowed to discriminate against their ministers. In this case, the organization was allowed to dismiss a minister because she sued them, arguing that it was against their religion to sue the church.

I recognize that there must be some "ministerial exception". I don't think the government should force the Catholic church, for example to accept female priests (I somewhat wish they would, but I don't want them to be forced to do so).

That being said, I think this ruling went too far. This ruling seems to shift the power not from the secular to the religious, but from the employee to the employer (much like the recent Walmart discrimination case). Why should religious liberty dictate that the minister cannot sue the church, when the reverse (a church suing one of their ministers) is presumably not disallowed?
 
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(crossposted from law and justice)

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/12/us...s.html?_r=1&hp


WASHINGTON — In what may be its most significant religious liberty decision in two decades, the Supreme Court on Wednesday for the first time recognized a “ministerial exception” to employment discrimination laws, saying that churches and other religious groups must be free to choose and dismiss their leaders without government interference.
What do people think? The justices basically said unanimously (there were concurrences, but no dissents) that religious organizations were allowed to discriminate against their ministers. In this case, the organization was allowed to dismiss a minister because she sued them, arguing that it was against their religion to sue the church.

I recognize that there must be some "ministerial exception". I don't think the government should force the Catholic church, for example to accept female priests (I somewhat wish they would, but I don't want them to be forced to do so).

That being said, I think this ruling went too far. This ruling seems to shift the power not from the secular to the religious, but from the employee to the employer (much like the recent Walmart discrimination case). Why should religious liberty dictate that the minister cannot sue the church, when the reverse (a church suing one of their ministers) is presumably not disallowed?

Government has no place in the operation of Religious Institutions. What will you argue next, that the Church is discriminating against an Atheist Priest by not Hiring him? Maybe a Protestant wants to be a Catholic Priest, or a Buddhist, or a Muslim? Should they too claim discrimination? You have no business in any Religious Community that you are not a part of. You are abusing the 1st Amendment.
 
I hope you are using "you" to refer to a generic third person rather than to me. I certainly think that espousing contradictory religious beliefs would be a legitimate reason to fire a minister. It's just not clear to me why a church should have such a wide, asymmetric immunity to lawsuits. Carried to its extreme, the argument that a church can do anything it claims is part of its religious practice clearly fails (we would not allow, eg, involuntary human sacrifice). I think the Supreme Court drew the line too far in the favor of religious organizations at the expense of individuals such as the teacher who sued.
 
I hope you are using "you" to refer to a generic third person rather than to me. I certainly think that espousing contradictory religious beliefs would be a legitimate reason to fire a minister. It's just not clear to me why a church should have such a wide, asymmetric immunity to lawsuits. Carried to its extreme, the argument that a church can do anything it claims is part of its religious practice clearly fails (we would not allow, eg, involuntary human sacrifice). I think the Supreme Court drew the line too far in the favor of religious organizations at the expense of individuals such as the teacher who sued.

I can agree there. I guess that I just generally don't get past Locke's view on Religious Tolerance, which I do find timeless in Principle. At least in Separation of Church and State and the Immunities that go with it. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and God what is God's. I would think that If a Church was on a Path of Self Destruction, it would do that just the same without Court Intervention. We do not want Magistrates arbitrating matters of Salvation, that is my point. Churches committing Felonies (Physical Harm) is a matter for the Court.

There are allot of Crazy Sects out there, to each his/her own. If you don't like something and cannot effect positive change, you should be free to leave. The Power any Church has over you should not include the surrender of your free will, or Conscience. ;)

I know this is long reading, but it touches so much it is worth notice. This Man gave us allot towards Our Founding. Way ahead of His time.

A Letter Concerning Toleration

by John Locke

1689

Translated by William Popple

John Locke: A Letter Concerning Toleration
 
I hope you are using "you" to refer to a generic third person rather than to me. I certainly think that espousing contradictory religious beliefs would be a legitimate reason to fire a minister. It's just not clear to me why a church should have such a wide, asymmetric immunity to lawsuits. Carried to its extreme, the argument that a church can do anything it claims is part of its religious practice clearly fails (we would not allow, eg, involuntary human sacrifice). I think the Supreme Court drew the line too far in the favor of religious organizations at the expense of individuals such as the teacher who sued.

What do you call a minister? That actually was the crux of the case, btw. A woman was employed to teach and do other jobs at the church. I can't remember what happened but the church claimed she had a ministerial role, and therefore they were exempt. The exemption is not something someone just made up. That is long-standing law and policy here.
The Court is saying churches are free to make their own judgments in such matters.
I realize that is anathema to most liberals, who want laws and regulations to over-ride individual judgment. But bravo for the Court. And thank you, Mr Bush.
 
I hope you are using "you" to refer to a generic third person rather than to me. I certainly think that espousing contradictory religious beliefs would be a legitimate reason to fire a minister. It's just not clear to me why a church should have such a wide, asymmetric immunity to lawsuits. Carried to its extreme, the argument that a church can do anything it claims is part of its religious practice clearly fails (we would not allow, eg, involuntary human sacrifice). I think the Supreme Court drew the line too far in the favor of religious organizations at the expense of individuals such as the teacher who sued.

What do you call a minister? That actually was the crux of the case, btw. A woman was employed to teach and do other jobs at the church. I can't remember what happened but the church claimed she had a ministerial role, and therefore they were exempt. The exemption is not something someone just made up. That is long-standing law and policy here.
The Court is saying churches are free to make their own judgments in such matters.
I realize that is anathema to most liberals, who want laws and regulations to over-ride individual judgment. But bravo for the Court. And thank you, Mr Bush.

Totally support that. One is always free to leave a Religious Community without Legal consequence, here, at least. In matters of Conscience, no Man should stand between the Individual and His/Her Maker, either. The Prophets understood that. :)
 
Understandably, people are focusing on the religious aspect of this ruling. What is of particular interest to me, though, is how it changes the relationship between employee and employer. Does this mean, for example, that a minister's legal contract with their church is unenforceable because the minister cannot sue the church for breach of contract? That could actually limit the rights of religious organizations by preventing them from entering into binding contracts.
 
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Understandably, people are focusing on the religious aspect of this ruling. What is of particular interest to me, though, is how it changes the relationship between employee and employer. Does this mean, for example, that a minister's legal contract with their church is unenforceable because the minister cannot sue the church for breach of contract? That could actually limit the rights of religious organizations by preventing them from entering into binding contracts.

Well, I should probably research these more carefully before posting:

Opinion recap: A solid “ministerial exception” : SCOTUSblog

Apparently, the court declined to rule on breach of contract issues, narrowly addressing the issue of employment discrimination.
 
(crossposted from law and justice)


Edit: link changed to http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/12/u...-exception-to-job-discrimination-laws.html?hp
(old link: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/12/us...s.html?_r=1&hp)


WASHINGTON — In what may be its most significant religious liberty decision in two decades, the Supreme Court on Wednesday for the first time recognized a “ministerial exception” to employment discrimination laws, saying that churches and other religious groups must be free to choose and dismiss their leaders without government interference.
What do people think? The justices basically said unanimously (there were concurrences, but no dissents) that religious organizations were allowed to discriminate against their ministers. In this case, the organization was allowed to dismiss a minister because she sued them, arguing that it was against their religion to sue the church.

I recognize that there must be some "ministerial exception". I don't think the government should force the Catholic church, for example to accept female priests (I somewhat wish they would, but I don't want them to be forced to do so).

That being said, I think this ruling went too far. This ruling seems to shift the power not from the secular to the religious, but from the employee to the employer (much like the recent Walmart discrimination case). Why should religious liberty dictate that the minister cannot sue the church, when the reverse (a church suing one of their ministers) is presumably not disallowed?

Why do people always read more into a decision that the court puts into it? The decision basically over rules the EEOC that churches could not claim a ministerial exception in discrimination cases, and kicks the actual decision back to the courts. It is nothing more than an affirmative defense, and forces the EEOC to prove that the employee is not actually a minister.
 
Understandably, people are focusing on the religious aspect of this ruling. What is of particular interest to me, though, is how it changes the relationship between employee and employer. Does this mean, for example, that a minister's legal contract with their church is unenforceable because the minister cannot sue the church for breach of contract? That could actually limit the rights of religious organizations by preventing them from entering into binding contracts.

No
 
Understandably, people are focusing on the religious aspect of this ruling. What is of particular interest to me, though, is how it changes the relationship between employee and employer. Does this mean, for example, that a minister's legal contract with their church is unenforceable because the minister cannot sue the church for breach of contract? That could actually limit the rights of religious organizations by preventing them from entering into binding contracts.

No

Why not? The Supreme Court seems to have left these larger issues un-addressed (correctly, probably) but it's not immediately clear to me why a church that cannot be sued for discrimination could be sued for breach of contract? What would be the legal reason for that? Would the reasoning be that the church shouldn't have put something in their contract in the first place if it could contradict their religious beliefs?

I don't know the answer to these questions, but I find them interesting.
 
Understandably, people are focusing on the religious aspect of this ruling. What is of particular interest to me, though, is how it changes the relationship between employee and employer. Does this mean, for example, that a minister's legal contract with their church is unenforceable because the minister cannot sue the church for breach of contract? That could actually limit the rights of religious organizations by preventing them from entering into binding contracts.

No

Why not? The Supreme Court seems to have left these larger issues un-addressed (correctly, probably) but it's not immediately clear to me why a church that cannot be sued for discrimination could be sued for breach of contract? What would be the legal reason for that? Would the reasoning be that the church shouldn't have put something in their contract in the first place if it could contradict their religious beliefs?

I don't know the answer to these questions, but I find them interesting.

Because they can be sued for discrimination, they just get to offer the defense that the employee who is trying to sue them is actually a minister, and thus exempt from discrimination lawsuits because religious considerations outweigh the discrimination issues. That has nothing to do with contracts, and churches have been sued for violating contracts in the past.
 

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