Just something I noticed during my time on this board.

[P F Tinmore]

Sure ,however no one external told them what to do.Their decisions and actions where their own (Maybe influenced by the Arab world , but it's even worse for your case ...).

Israel never would have been created without illegal foreign intervention.

British mandate was fully legal, in fact during the rule of the Ottoman empire the Palestinians have much less rights and freedoms then during the British mandate. Also the Ottoman empire never considered making a Palestinian state.

Indeed it was a legal mandate. However, Britain violated the League of Nations Covenant, its own mandate, and the rights of the Palestinian people. Britain operated outside its authority.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Sure ,however no one external told them what to do.Their decisions and actions where their own (Maybe influenced by the Arab world , but it's even worse for your case ...).

Israel never would have been created without illegal foreign intervention.

British mandate was fully legal, in fact during the rule of the Ottoman empire the Palestinians have much less rights and freedoms then during the British mandate. Also the Ottoman empire never considered making a Palestinian state.

It was the Jews living in what would become Israel, not the British or the UN, who created Israel. Jews had lived as a persecuted minority often subjected to hysterical waves of anti semitic violence for centuries in Arab lands, and the Jews who had emigrated to the Protectorate to escape anti semitic persecution and violence in Europe were not about to submit to it at the hands of the Arabs in the Protectorate. Regardless of what the UN might have done, these Jews would have created their own state because it was the only way they could remain safe in this sea of Arab anti semitic hate. It was the Arabs, not the Jews, who needed the help of the UN to create their state and who foolishly rejected it when it was offered.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel never would have been created without illegal foreign intervention.

British mandate was fully legal, in fact during the rule of the Ottoman empire the Palestinians have much less rights and freedoms then during the British mandate. Also the Ottoman empire never considered making a Palestinian state.

It was the Jews living in what would become Israel, not the British or the UN, who created Israel. Jews had lived as a persecuted minority often subjected to hysterical waves of anti semitic violence for centuries in Arab lands, and the Jews who had emigrated to the Protectorate to escape anti semitic persecution and violence in Europe were not about to submit to it at the hands of the Arabs in the Protectorate. Regardless of what the UN might have done, these Jews would have created their own state because it was the only way they could remain safe in this sea of Arab anti semitic hate. It was the Arabs, not the Jews, who needed the help of the UN to create their state and who foolishly rejected it when it was offered.

It is true that the UN had nothing to do with the creation of Israel. Britain was instrumental in the creation of Israel. I don’t think there would be an Israel without their help. I doubt that the normal immigration of Jews under normal circumstances would have led to the creation of Israel. I don’t think that there would be the interest or the capacity.

 

[docmauser1]

With people who have the right to self determination without foreign influence.

We, of course, find it funny when major illegal arab immigrants to the area start crying "foreign influence".

 

[toomuchtime_]

British mandate was fully legal, in fact during the rule of the Ottoman empire the Palestinians have much less rights and freedoms then during the British mandate. Also the Ottoman empire never considered making a Palestinian state.

It was the Jews living in what would become Israel, not the British or the UN, who created Israel. Jews had lived as a persecuted minority often subjected to hysterical waves of anti semitic violence for centuries in Arab lands, and the Jews who had emigrated to the Protectorate to escape anti semitic persecution and violence in Europe were not about to submit to it at the hands of the Arabs in the Protectorate. Regardless of what the UN might have done, these Jews would have created their own state because it was the only way they could remain safe in this sea of Arab anti semitic hate. It was the Arabs, not the Jews, who needed the help of the UN to create their state and who foolishly rejected it when it was offered.

It is true that the UN had nothing to do with the creation of Israel. Britain was instrumental in the creation of Israel. I don’t think there would be an Israel without their help. I doubt that the normal immigration of Jews under normal circumstances would have led to the creation of Israel. I don’t think that there would be the interest or the capacity.

That's because you're just not very good at thinking. Far from assisting the Jews in creating a state, the Brits did their best to prevent it, by making Jordan a Jew free territory and by trying to prevent Jewish immigration to the Protectorate. The high rate of immigration was due to two things, the intensification of anti semitic violence in eastern Europe and anti immigration laws passed in the early 1920's by the US which had previously been the preferred destination of Jews escaping from Europe.

Had the British not blocked Jewish immigration to the Protectorate in the 1930's, effectively sending hundreds of thousands of Jews to Hitler's death camps, and had encouraged Jewish immigration as you suggest, hundreds of thousands of European Jews and hundreds of thousands of Jews from Arab countries would have arrived there and the Arabs would have been a clear minority in 1948. The creation of Israel was inevitable and neither the Arabs nor the British nor the US State Dept. was able to stop it.

 

[Wolverine1984]

Israel never would have been created without illegal foreign intervention.

British mandate was fully legal, in fact during the rule of the Ottoman empire the Palestinians have much less rights and freedoms then during the British mandate. Also the Ottoman empire never considered making a Palestinian state.

Indeed it was a legal mandate. However, Britain violated the League of Nations Covenant, its own mandate, and the rights of the Palestinian people. Britain operated outside its authority.

No.

 

[P F Tinmore]

It was the Jews living in what would become Israel, not the British or the UN, who created Israel. Jews had lived as a persecuted minority often subjected to hysterical waves of anti semitic violence for centuries in Arab lands, and the Jews who had emigrated to the Protectorate to escape anti semitic persecution and violence in Europe were not about to submit to it at the hands of the Arabs in the Protectorate. Regardless of what the UN might have done, these Jews would have created their own state because it was the only way they could remain safe in this sea of Arab anti semitic hate. It was the Arabs, not the Jews, who needed the help of the UN to create their state and who foolishly rejected it when it was offered.

It is true that the UN had nothing to do with the creation of Israel. Britain was instrumental in the creation of Israel. I don’t think there would be an Israel without their help. I doubt that the normal immigration of Jews under normal circumstances would have led to the creation of Israel. I don’t think that there would be the interest or the capacity.

That's because you're just not very good at thinking. Far from assisting the Jews in creating a state, the Brits did their best to prevent it, by making Jordan a Jew free territory and by trying to prevent Jewish immigration to the Protectorate. The high rate of immigration was due to two things, the intensification of anti semitic violence in eastern Europe and anti immigration laws passed in the early 1920's by the US which had previously been the preferred destination of Jews escaping from Europe.

Had the British not blocked Jewish immigration to the Protectorate in the 1930's, effectively sending hundreds of thousands of Jews to Hitler's death camps, and had encouraged Jewish immigration as you suggest, hundreds of thousands of European Jews and hundreds of thousands of Jews from Arab countries would have arrived there and the Arabs would have been a clear minority in 1948. The creation of Israel was inevitable and neither the Arabs nor the British nor the US State Dept. was able to stop it.

It should be noted the the below table was directly scanned from Survey of Palestine (p. 185) which was prepared by the British Mandate for the United Nations.

 

[Wolverine1984]

We are well aware of the Jewish immigration.
However I find it funny that it says 'Number of immigrants by race' while the columns say :"Jew","Muslim","Christian" .
While Jewish may be a race , Islam and Christianity are religions.
*It also should be noted that the image is from the site Palestine remebered.

 

[toomuchtime_]

It is true that the UN had nothing to do with the creation of Israel. Britain was instrumental in the creation of Israel. I don’t think there would be an Israel without their help. I doubt that the normal immigration of Jews under normal circumstances would have led to the creation of Israel. I don’t think that there would be the interest or the capacity.

That's because you're just not very good at thinking. Far from assisting the Jews in creating a state, the Brits did their best to prevent it, by making Jordan a Jew free territory and by trying to prevent Jewish immigration to the Protectorate. The high rate of immigration was due to two things, the intensification of anti semitic violence in eastern Europe and anti immigration laws passed in the early 1920's by the US which had previously been the preferred destination of Jews escaping from Europe.

Had the British not blocked Jewish immigration to the Protectorate in the 1930's, effectively sending hundreds of thousands of Jews to Hitler's death camps, and had encouraged Jewish immigration as you suggest, hundreds of thousands of European Jews and hundreds of thousands of Jews from Arab countries would have arrived there and the Arabs would have been a clear minority in 1948. The creation of Israel was inevitable and neither the Arabs nor the British nor the US State Dept. was able to stop it.

It should be noted the the below table was directly scanned from Survey of Palestine (p. 185) which was prepared by the British Mandate for the United Nations.

This is a list of those who registered as immigrants, but there were large numbers of Arabs who just walked across the borders and never registered. The British reported to the League of Nations in the mid 1930's that while they were able to severely limit the number of Jewish immigrants since they arrived by ship, they were unable to limit the number of Arabs because they just walked across the borders.

 

[P F Tinmore]

We are well aware of the Jewish immigration.
However I find it funny that it says 'Number of immigrants by race' while the columns say :"Jew","Muslim","Christian" .
While Jewish may be a race , Islam and Christianity are religions.
*It also should be noted that the image is from the site Palestine remebered.

However I find it funny that it says 'Number of immigrants by race' while the columns say :"Jew","Muslim","Christian" .

Perhaps you should take that up with the British mandate.

*It also should be noted that the image is from the site Palestine remebered.

What? Don't you think they know how to use a scanner?

 

[JStone]

We are well aware of the Jewish immigration.
However I find it funny that it says 'Number of immigrants by race' while the columns say :"Jew","Muslim","Christian" .
While Jewish may be a race , Islam and Christianity are religions.
*It also should be noted that the image is from the site Palestine remebered.

However I find it funny that it says 'Number of immigrants by race' while the columns say :"Jew","Muslim","Christian" .

Perhaps you should take that up with the British mandate.

*It also should be noted that the image is from the site Palestine remebered.

What? Don't you think they know how to use a scanner?

Since Jordan constituted 80 percent of "palestine" during the British Mandate before the Brits gave it to the hashemites from arabia, when are you going to demand the King of Jordan relinquish Jordan-occupied palestine to the palesteenians?

 

[docmauser1]

What? Don't you think they know how to use a scanner?

And a scandoc manipulation software too!

 

[American Horse]

What you are saying is false.
The only political entity at the time that was called Palestine was the mandate. Otherwise Palestine was just a geographical area... like North or South America.
So of course the mandate was Palestine and without the mandate there is no Palestine.

Not so. Palestine was mentioned many times in the 1949 armistice agreements. It was still there. It is still called Palestine.

Palestine was an invented Roman name for Israel under the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire dissolved 1500 years ago.

Biblical Historian and Scholar Dr. Paula Fredriksen, Professor of Religion, Boston University; Ph.D, History of Religion, Princeton University; Diploma in Theology, Oxford University

The Judean revolt against Rome was led by [Jewish rebel] Bar Kochba in 132-135 CE. The immediate causes of this rebellion are obscure. Its result was not: [Roman Emperor] Hadrian crushed the revolt and banned Jews from Judea.

The Romans now designated this territory by a political neologism, "Palestine" [a Latin form of "Philistine"], in a deliberate effort to denationalize Jewish/Judean territory. And, finally, Hadrian eradicated Jewish Jerusalem, erecting upon its ruins a new pagan city, Aelia Capitolina.
Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews by Paula Fredriksen - Book - Random House

PBS...

In 70 AD, after a siege marked by starvation and terror crucifixions, the Roman army broke through the walls of Jerusalem. Not only did they kill thousands of Jews, they laid waste to the Temple, the only place on Earth, according to Biblical law, where Jews could worship God.

It was the death of the religion of Priests and sacrifices described by the Hebrew Bible. But, it would not be the death of Judaism. In the years ahead, some of the greatest religious minds in history would struggle to reinvent the religion of Moses and David.

But, the Jews would be forced to work during a period of almost inconceivable bloodshed and turmoil. They would watch their people be expelled from Jerusalem on pain of death and see the name of their homeland changed from Judea to Palestine

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLypbbijk2I&feature=relmfu]The Gifts of the Jews - YouTube[/ame]

It's important to take into account that when the Jews were expelled in 70 that was only those directly connected to the rebellion, the ruling classes, important families, and social leaders, but the peasants of the back country were not, and were a permanent Jewish population in the land renamed by the Romans as Syria Palestina.

The word Palestina was the Roman Latinized version of the name of the former tribe of the Phillistines, and was used to insult the former Jewish overlords who had earlier in the time of David defeated and vanquished them.

But the remnant peasant Philistine populations, just like subsequent Jews (viz the Romans), remained on the lands from then on.

 

[mudwhistle]

 

[P F Tinmore]

Not so. Palestine was mentioned many times in the 1949 armistice agreements. It was still there. It is still called Palestine.

Palestine was an invented Roman name for Israel under the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire dissolved 1500 years ago.

Biblical Historian and Scholar Dr. Paula Fredriksen, Professor of Religion, Boston University; Ph.D, History of Religion, Princeton University; Diploma in Theology, Oxford University


PBS...

In 70 AD, after a siege marked by starvation and terror crucifixions, the Roman army broke through the walls of Jerusalem. Not only did they kill thousands of Jews, they laid waste to the Temple, the only place on Earth, according to Biblical law, where Jews could worship God.

It was the death of the religion of Priests and sacrifices described by the Hebrew Bible. But, it would not be the death of Judaism. In the years ahead, some of the greatest religious minds in history would struggle to reinvent the religion of Moses and David.

But, the Jews would be forced to work during a period of almost inconceivable bloodshed and turmoil. They would watch their people be expelled from Jerusalem on pain of death and see the name of their homeland changed from Judea to Palestine

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLypbbijk2I&feature=relmfu]The Gifts of the Jews - YouTube[/ame]

It's important to take into account that when the Jews were expelled in 70 that was only those directly connected to the rebellion, the ruling classes, important families, and social leaders, but the peasants of the back country were not, and were a permanent Jewish population in the land renamed by the Romans as Syria Palestina.

The word Palestina was the Roman Latinized version of the name of the former tribe of the Phillistines, and was used to insult the former Jewish overlords who had earlier in the time of David defeated and vanquished them.

But the remnant peasant Philistine populations, just like subsequent Jews (viz the Romans), remained on the lands from then on.

That is typical. Those who can make trouble get removed. The rest are allowed to stay or just fall under the radar.

There is not one single group of people who have exclusive rights to Palestine.

 

[JStone]

Palestine was an invented Roman name for Israel under the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire dissolved 1500 years ago.

Biblical Historian and Scholar Dr. Paula Fredriksen, Professor of Religion, Boston University; Ph.D, History of Religion, Princeton University; Diploma in Theology, Oxford University


PBS...


The Gifts of the Jews - YouTube

It's important to take into account that when the Jews were expelled in 70 that was only those directly connected to the rebellion, the ruling classes, important families, and social leaders, but the peasants of the back country were not, and were a permanent Jewish population in the land renamed by the Romans as Syria Palestina.

The word Palestina was the Roman Latinized version of the name of the former tribe of the Phillistines, and was used to insult the former Jewish overlords who had earlier in the time of David defeated and vanquished them.

But the remnant peasant Philistine populations, just like subsequent Jews (viz the Romans), remained on the lands from then on.

That is typical. Those who can make trouble get removed. The rest are allowed to stay or just fall under the radar.

There is not one single group of people who have exclusive rights to Palestine.

Palestine is Israel. Jews established sovereignty over Israel 3000 years ago. Jews decide who lives in their country.

Eminent Middle East Historian Dr. Bernard Lewis, Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University, Author, "The Middle East: A Brief History of the Last 2000 Years," "The Future of the Middle East," "The Shaping of the Modern Middle East," "The End of Modern History in the Middle East," Faith and Power: Religion and Politics in the Middle East"

The adjective Palestinian is comparatively new. This, I need hardly remind you, is a region of ancient civilization and of deep-rooted and often complex identitites. But, Palestine was not one of them. People might identify themselves for various purposes, by religion, by descent, or by allegiance to a particular state or ruler, or, sometimes, locality. But, when they did it locally it was generally either the city and the immediate district or the larger province, so they would have been Jerusalemites or Jaffaites or Syrians, identifying with the larger province of Syria

The constitution or the formation of a political entity called Palestine which eventually gave rise to a nationality called Palestinian were lasting innovations of the British Mandate [1922-1948]

The countries forming the western arm of the Fertile Crescent were called by the names of the various kingdoms and peoples that ruled and inhabited them. Of these, the most familiar, or at least the best documented, are the southern lands, known in the earlier books of the Hebrew Bible and some other ancient writings as Canaan. After the Israelite conquest and settlement, the area inhabited by them came to be described as "land of the children of Israel" or simply "land of Israel" After the breakup of the kingdom of David and Solomon in the tenth century BCE, the southern part, with Jerusalem as its capital, was called Judah, while the north was called Israel

It is by now commonplace that the civilizations of the Middle East are oldest known to human history. They go back thousands of years, much older than the civilizations of India and China, not to speak of other upstart places. It is also interesting, though now often forgotten, that the ancient civilizations of the Middle East were almost totally obliterated and forgotten by their own people as well as by others. Their monuments were defaced or destroyed, their languages forgotten, their scripts forgotten, their history forgotten and even their identities forgotten.

All that was known about them came from one single source, and that is Israel, the only component of the ancient Middle East to have retained their identity, their memory, their language and their books. For a very long time, up to comparatively modern times, with rare exceptions all that was known about the ancient Middle East--the Babylonians, the Egyptians and the rest--was what the Jewish tradiiton has preserved.
Amazon.com: Political Words and Ideas in Islam (9781558764248): Bernard Lewis: Books

 

[JStone]

It's important to take into account that when the Jews were expelled in 70 that was only those directly connected to the rebellion, the ruling classes, important families, and social leaders, but the peasants of the back country were not, and were a permanent Jewish population in the land renamed by the Romans as Syria Palestina.

Jews were expelled from Jerusalem, not from all of Israel. Jews established a large community in Galilee, where Jesus resided and where the Sanhedrin [Jewish Supreme Court] was reestablished

Emperor Pius permitted all Jews to return to Israel where Jews were permitted to practice their religion and were exempted from pagan worship. Emperor Caracalla granted Roman citizenship to all Jews.

The word Palestina was the Roman Latinized version of the name of the former tribe of the Phillistines, and was used to insult the former Jewish overlords who had earlier in the time of David defeated and vanquished them.

But the remnant peasant Philistine populations, just like subsequent Jews (viz the Romans), remained on the lands from then on.

Philistines were of Greek origin and eventually disappeared as an entity . So-called Palestinians are Arabs from Saudi Arabia.

Palestine does not appear in the Hebrew Bible.
Palestine does not appear in the New Testament.
Palestine does not appear in the Septuagint.
Palestine does not appear in the Quran.

Israel appears 2500 times in the Hebrew Bible, New Testament and Quran