Just joined!!!

[Lyte]

I also believe in the "separation of church and state", sadly that is not the case in my country. Anyways, welcome.

 

[Big Black Dog]

Glad to have you aboard. The Welcome Wagon should be getting to your house pretty soon now.

 

[Two Thumbs]

I have the fruit basket.

 

[WillowTree]

Potato.

You say potato I say potato...

That doesn't really work in print...

I know, I tried it with tomato.

 

[Immanuel]

Welcome, but if you really plan on reading all the threads (from before) I don't think we will see you for a while.

Glad to have your voice in this nuthouse.

Immie

 

[WillowTree]

I also believe in the "separation of church and state", sadly that is not the case in my country. Anyways, welcome.

What is your country and why are you burning an American flag?

 

[Lyte]

I also believe in the "separation of church and state", sadly that is not the case in my country. Anyways, welcome.

What is your country and why are you burning an American flag?

I'm from Finland, as it is stated in the "location" part of my every post. The picture is from an American made music video [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qKGZ4Ysy5M"]"Symphony of destruction"[/ame] I think the message is clear...

 

[Immanuel]

I also believe in the "separation of church and state", sadly that is not the case in my country. Anyways, welcome.

What is your country and why are you burning an American flag?

I'm from Finland, as it is stated in the "location" part of my every post. The picture is from an American made music video [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qKGZ4Ysy5M"]"Symphony of destruction"[/ame] I think the message is clear...

The video you posted is blocked in the US by EMI because of copyright laws.

I don't know the song. Can you help with the message you are trying to get out?

Immie

 

[Lyte]

The video you posted is blocked in the US by EMI because of copyright laws.

I don't know the song. Can you help with the message you are trying to get out?

Immie

Damn, sorry about that. Well the song warns about the right wing values, what they are about and what do they lead to. Without the poor there cannot be the rich. Fundamentally right wing values are about exploitation of the weak. As you can see, the corporate goon is displaying family values in the pic by holding the baby while the american flag is burning - symbolizing how the people are being exploited by the rich "elite" while keeping a respectable front to fool the masses.

I chose this picture as I was listening the Walker/Koch prank call is disgust. I firmly believe that labor unions are for the good of all and Walkers attempt to destroy them was apalling.

 

[WillowTree]

The video you posted is blocked in the US by EMI because of copyright laws.

I don't know the song. Can you help with the message you are trying to get out?

Immie

Damn, sorry about that. Well the song warns about the right wing values, what they are about and what do they lead to. Without the poor there cannot be the rich. Fundamentally right wing values are about exploitation of the weak. As you can see, the corporate goon is displaying family values in the pic by holding the baby while the american flag is burning - symbolizing how the people are being exploited by the rich "elite" while keeping a respectable front to fool the masses.

I chose this picture as I was listening the Walker/Koch prank call is disgust. I firmly believe that labor unions are for the good of all and Walkers attempt to destroy them was apalling.

so the only jobs in finland is printing money.

 

[Immanuel]

The video you posted is blocked in the US by EMI because of copyright laws.

I don't know the song. Can you help with the message you are trying to get out?

Immie

Damn, sorry about that. Well the song warns about the right wing values, what they are about and what do they lead to. Without the poor there cannot be the rich. Fundamentally right wing values are about exploitation of the weak. As you can see, the corporate goon is displaying family values in the pic by holding the baby while the american flag is burning - symbolizing how the people are being exploited by the rich "elite" while keeping a respectable front to fool the masses.

I chose this picture as I was listening the Walker/Koch prank call is disgust. I firmly believe that labor unions are for the good of all and Walkers attempt to destroy them was apalling.

I figured you would not know it was blocked here.

Not knowing the song or the video, the message was not clear to me.

To me, the guy holding the baby looks like a TV Evangelist and the last word in the picture (looks like a poster to me with the US flag on it ends in "BLE". I suspected it had a religious message to it.

I can't say that I agree with what you say above, but I respect your point of view. As for unions here in this country they have done some good things, but today's unions are a far cry from those days.

Immie

 

[Lyte]

so the only jobs in finland is printing money.

Abolition of private property is a requirement of Communism and yeah, we have witnessed the achievements of communism for these past decades and I don't think anyone of us is left impressed. By no means am I against entrepreneurship, as long as it respects the workers who make it all happen. But maximizing profits is the highest value for a company - and rightly so, what other value could ensure the success of a company better? But maximizing profits isn't a value for humanity, we value families, well being and having a meaningful lives. I believe that companies need to be "rein in" to serve humanity, and not to let them run amok as our goals aren't the same.

To me, the guy holding the baby looks like a TV Evangelist and the last word in the picture (looks like a poster to me with the US flag on it ends in "BLE". I suspected it had a religious message to it.

The text says -> ...for the people

I can't say that I agree with what you say above, but I respect your point of view. As for unions here in this country they have done some good things, but today's unions are a far cry from those days.

What can possibly be wrong about people organizing into labor unions to make sure that they are all treated fairly? Oh and It's ok to disagree, we are here to debate after all.

 

[Immanuel]

so the only jobs in finland is printing money.

Abolition of private property is a requirement of Communism and yeah, we have witnessed the achievements of communism for these past decades and I don't think anyone of us is left impressed. By no means am I against entrepreneurship, as long as it respects the workers who make it all happen. But maximizing profits is the highest value for a company - and rightly so, what other value could ensure the success of a company better? But maximizing profits isn't a value for humanity, we value families, well being and having a meaningful lives. I believe that companies need to be "rein in" to serve humanity, and not to let them run amok as our goals aren't the same.

To me, the guy holding the baby looks like a TV Evangelist and the last word in the picture (looks like a poster to me with the US flag on it ends in "BLE". I suspected it had a religious message to it.

The text says -> ...for the people

I can't say that I agree with what you say above, but I respect your point of view. As for unions here in this country they have done some good things, but today's unions are a far cry from those days.

What can possibly be wrong about people organizing into labor unions to make sure that they are all treated fairly? Oh and It's ok to disagree, we are here to debate after all.

Thanks for the clarification on the text. When I typed that I had thought it ended "BLE". Went back and looked and realized it was only "LE", but did not bother to edit my post.

What can be wrong with people organizing into unions to be sure they are treated fairly? Well, the question is loaded because nothing is wrong with people making sure they are treated fairly. The problem I have with unions is not the people that are supposedly represented by the unions, but rather the union bosses who it seems in this country are as corrupt as the politicians and corporate management they seem to despise so much.

Immie

 

[Lyte]

so the only jobs in finland is printing money.

Abolition of private property is a requirement of Communism and yeah, we have witnessed the achievements of communism for these past decades and I don't think anyone of us is left impressed. By no means am I against entrepreneurship, as long as it respects the workers who make it all happen. But maximizing profits is the highest value for a company - and rightly so, what other value could ensure the success of a company better? But maximizing profits isn't a value for humanity, we value families, well being and having a meaningful lives. I believe that companies need to be "rein in" to serve humanity, and not to let them run amok as our goals aren't the same.


The text says -> ...for the people

I can't say that I agree with what you say above, but I respect your point of view. As for unions here in this country they have done some good things, but today's unions are a far cry from those days.

What can possibly be wrong about people organizing into labor unions to make sure that they are all treated fairly? Oh and It's ok to disagree, we are here to debate after all.

Thanks for the clarification on the text. When I typed that I had thought it ended "BLE". Went back and looked and realized it was only "LE", but did not bother to edit my post.

What can be wrong with people organizing into unions to be sure they are treated fairly? Well, the question is loaded because nothing is wrong with people making sure they are treated fairly. The problem I have with unions is not the people that are supposedly represented by the unions, but rather the union bosses who it seems in this country are as corrupt as the politicians and corporate management they seem to despise so much.

Immie

Unions main task is to make sure all workers are treated fairly. You agree that there is nothing wrong with this goal, therefore you are not against unions per se, just against corruption within unions (?) .

Unions cannot have too much power, if they squeeze the corporations/industry too tight with their demands - they die, and workers lose their jobs. The system is self balancing.

What is the nature of this corruption? Does it stop the unions working for the benefit for the workforce? Can't the union leaders elected out if the workers find them not working for their benefit? Can you reduce the problem with unions to it's core? (leaders cannot be elected out, Union leaders being bribed by the corporates etc...)

 

[Immanuel]

Abolition of private property is a requirement of Communism and yeah, we have witnessed the achievements of communism for these past decades and I don't think anyone of us is left impressed. By no means am I against entrepreneurship, as long as it respects the workers who make it all happen. But maximizing profits is the highest value for a company - and rightly so, what other value could ensure the success of a company better? But maximizing profits isn't a value for humanity, we value families, well being and having a meaningful lives. I believe that companies need to be "rein in" to serve humanity, and not to let them run amok as our goals aren't the same.


The text says -> ...for the people
What can possibly be wrong about people organizing into labor unions to make sure that they are all treated fairly? Oh and It's ok to disagree, we are here to debate after all.

Thanks for the clarification on the text. When I typed that I had thought it ended "BLE". Went back and looked and realized it was only "LE", but did not bother to edit my post.

What can be wrong with people organizing into unions to be sure they are treated fairly? Well, the question is loaded because nothing is wrong with people making sure they are treated fairly. The problem I have with unions is not the people that are supposedly represented by the unions, but rather the union bosses who it seems in this country are as corrupt as the politicians and corporate management they seem to despise so much.

Immie

Unions main task is to make sure all workers are treated fairly. You agree that there is nothing wrong with this goal, therefore you are not against unions per se, just against corruption within unions (?) .

Unions cannot have too much power, if they squeeze the corporations/industry too tight with their demands - they die, and workers lose their jobs. The system is self balancing.

What is the nature of this corruption? Does it stop the unions working for the benefit for the workforce? Can't the union leaders elected out if the workers find them not working for their benefit? Can you reduce the problem with unions to it's core? (leaders cannot be elected out, Union leaders being bribed by the corporates etc...)

True, I am not against unions per se. I am against corruption within unions, industry or politics.

Unions cannot have too much power, if they squeeze the corporations/industry too tight with their demands - they die, and workers lose their jobs. The system is self balancing.

Do I sense a belief in the free market in this passage?

I mean basically that is what you are describing.

What is the nature of this corruption?

Oh, Oh, Now I am being put on the spot to describe the nature of corruption. I guess I have to put up or shut up. I think the nature of it is the same as for politicians and Corporate Management. They have power and they means to wield that power. Every man has his price and the union "boss" is no different. There is power in the union. They collect union dues and that can be a lot of money. With that they can hire lobbyists and influence politicians. The more power they have the more likely they are to succumb.

Can't the union leaders elected out if the workers find them not working for their benefit?

Can a dictator ever be elected out of office? How about Saddam Hussein? Egypt's Mubarak? Libya's Qaddafi? Technically I suppose it might be possible to remove a union boss from office, but when a person has that kind of power and money backing him or her, the chances of that actually happening seem to be very very remote.

Can you reduce the problem with unions to it's core? (leaders cannot be elected out, Union leaders being bribed by the corporates etc...)

I don't think it is so much the idea that leaders are bribed by the corporations so much as that they sell out the workers, if that makes any sense.

My understanding in reference to the Wisconsin Teacher's Union is that the union has already sold the teachers out. They have given up on their demands for pay increases and all their other demands. The only thing they are holding out for is the future right to bargain collectively. Sounds like a sell out to me.

Immie

 

[Meister]

Abolition of private property is a requirement of Communism and yeah, we have witnessed the achievements of communism for these past decades and I don't think anyone of us is left impressed. By no means am I against entrepreneurship, as long as it respects the workers who make it all happen. But maximizing profits is the highest value for a company - and rightly so, what other value could ensure the success of a company better? But maximizing profits isn't a value for humanity, we value families, well being and having a meaningful lives. I believe that companies need to be "rein in" to serve humanity, and not to let them run amok as our goals aren't the same.


The text says -> ...for the people
What can possibly be wrong about people organizing into labor unions to make sure that they are all treated fairly? Oh and It's ok to disagree, we are here to debate after all.

Thanks for the clarification on the text. When I typed that I had thought it ended "BLE". Went back and looked and realized it was only "LE", but did not bother to edit my post.

What can be wrong with people organizing into unions to be sure they are treated fairly? Well, the question is loaded because nothing is wrong with people making sure they are treated fairly. The problem I have with unions is not the people that are supposedly represented by the unions, but rather the union bosses who it seems in this country are as corrupt as the politicians and corporate management they seem to despise so much.

Immie

Unions main task is to make sure all workers are treated fairly. You agree that there is nothing wrong with this goal, therefore you are not against unions per se, just against corruption within unions (?) .

Unions cannot have too much power, if they squeeze the corporations/industry too tight with their demands - they die, and workers lose their jobs. The system is self balancing.

What is the nature of this corruption? Does it stop the unions working for the benefit for the workforce? Can't the union leaders elected out if the workers find them not working for their benefit? Can you reduce the problem with unions to it's core? (leaders cannot be elected out, Union leaders being bribed by the corporates etc...)

Not if the unions are public unions. They have squeezed the states for unfunded pensions and benefits, and what isn't funded is now on the backs of the taxpayers, with rising deficits.

 

[xsited1]

I go by AmericanPatriot. However, that was already taken so I went with PatriotAmerican for this forum.

I believe in God and the "separation of church and state" being what the Founders meant it to be, not what it's become. I believe that the Government is suppose to be protecting our borders - which they do not. I believe in freedom of religion - not just all religions except Christianity.

Finally, I believe many, within our country, have been participating in it's destruction for many, many years and that they are true Traitors.

God Bless America!!

I consider myself to be a revolutionary and am willing to defend my Constitutional rights!!

As I start to read all your threads, I hope to get to know some of you!!

1 post and he's gone. Who scared him away?

 

[AquaAthena]

I go by AmericanPatriot. However, that was already taken so I went with PatriotAmerican for this forum.

I believe in God and the "separation of church and state" being what the Founders meant it to be, not what it's become. I believe that the Government is suppose to be protecting our borders - which they do not. I believe in freedom of religion - not just all religions except Christianity.

Finally, I believe many, within our country, have been participating in it's destruction for many, many years and that they are true Traitors.

God Bless America!!

I consider myself to be a revolutionary and am willing to defend my Constitutional rights!!

As I start to read all your threads, I hope to get to know some of you!!

I *heart* your sense of patriotism and loyalty to our country and it's history. So happy to have you and hope you find good and, well....shall we say, "interesting" times on USMB. They will most definitely be pulse-pounding...get ready... And:

 

[Lyte]

Do I sense a belief in the free market in this passage?

I mean basically that is what you are describing.

I don't believe free market is self balancing. Take the latest bank crisis as an example.
There was no indication that the markets tried to balance itself, bankers were just "clicking their profit buttons" repeatedly until the bubble burst. Nature of the problem is that ramifications of actions can be delayed, stored into these "bubbles" until the whole system comes down crashing.

Oh, Oh, Now I am being put on the spot to describe the nature of corruption. I guess I have to put up or shut up. I think the nature of it is the same as for politicians and Corporate Management. They have power and they means to wield that power. Every man has his price and the union "boss" is no different. There is power in the union. They collect union dues and that can be a lot of money. With that they can hire lobbyists and influence politicians. The more power they have the more likely they are to succumb.

Can't the union leaders elected out if the workers find them not working for their benefit?

Can a dictator ever be elected out of office? How about Saddam Hussein? Egypt's Mubarak? Libya's Qaddafi? Technically I suppose it might be possible to remove a union boss from office, but when a person has that kind of power and money backing him or her, the chances of that actually happening seem to be very very remote.

But they are not dictators but democratically elected representatives. It is true that even in here, Central labor union bosses aren't really selected democratically, but by a committee of representatives from labor unions governments, thus creating a ripe field for corruption - as the power at that level is within relatively small groups.
We are demanding (well at least some of us leftists here) that at all levels within labor union organizations should be truly democratically elected by us members (all people) as it would get rid of the chance of corruption at the highest level. (I hope I made some sense, my English is failing here)

Can you reduce the problem with unions to it's core? (leaders cannot be elected out, Union leaders being bribed by the corporates etc...)

I don't think it is so much the idea that leaders are bribed by the corporations so much as that they sell out the workers, if that makes any sense.

My understanding in reference to the Wisconsin Teacher's Union is that the union has already sold the teachers out. They have given up on their demands for pay increases and all their other demands. The only thing they are holding out for is the future right to bargain collectively. Sounds like a sell out to me.

To me it sounds like the self balancing is in action. Without knowing much about the situation in WI, I'm left with an impression that labor unions have understood that at these times workers simply cannot demand more as the state is in deep debt? To secure jobs they are ready to take one for the team. Why the collective bargaining right is being threatened? What is so damaging about that when it is clear that labor unions are willing to back down when they are presented with facts of the situation? This is something I cannot understand, to me it is a clear attempt to weaken the future bargaining rights of the workforce without any good reason.

 

[Lyte]

Unions cannot have too much power, if they squeeze the corporations/industry too tight with their demands - they die, and workers lose their jobs. The system is self balancing.

Not if the unions are public unions. They have squeezed the states for unfunded pensions and benefits, and what isn't funded is now on the backs of the taxpayers, with rising deficits.

I don't see any difference between how public unions vs state relation works compared to how private unions vs. corporate world works. The self balancing works in both cases just fine.
If the states have agreed to benefits and pensions they cant cover, then yes it is a problem.

Would this be an issue without the economy crash of 08'?
If not, then how can it even be possible to allow the state to gamble with the funds reserved to these purposes? Usually such funds are secured.
If yes, then how can a state agree to these rediculous benefits knowing that they cannot be covered? Usually the state is pretty strong in the negotiation table, at least as strong as any company would be.

A state or a country can go bankrupt just like a company (jus look at Iceland) and it is not beneficial to anyone if one does. The rules of self balancing are the same in private and public sectors (imo).