Just how bad Qadaffi was for Libya.

[High_Gravity]

Aside from looting the country blind, how bad was he? Any mass graves? Shredders? Torture rooms?

Yes to all the above.

 

[JStone]

Aside from looting the country blind, how bad was he? Any mass graves? Shredders? Torture rooms?

Gaddafi did make the trains run on time

 

[alexa]

I was watching a silly video of about an inane part of Quadaffi's rule. And I was struck by just how stoney broke the place is. Not just the civil war damage. The place provided 12% of the worlds oil, oil of the best quality that got premium prices. And the country was impoverished. The man took all that money that could have gone to all kinds of really cool ways to make the people of Libya comfortable and blew every penny on some kind of insanity or another.

One would think that some of that money would have benefited the people, but it looks like the place is worse off than if they were importing the oil, rather than exporting it all.

Random Libya video.

Seems they did quite well from him
1. Free education for all up to Post Grad level
2. Free Health Service
3. Free Housing Loans
4. Free land for farmers
5. 2010, Libya ranked 53rd on the Human Development Index
6. Purchase of cars 50% subsidised by Government
7. Petrol $0.14 per litre
8. No external debt
9. $150 billion reserves
10. Birth of child, Mum receives $5,000
11. 25% of Libyans have University Degree
12. All newlyweds receive $50,000 to help buy first home


Sri Lanka Guardian: The cost of killing Gaddafi

 

[JStone]

I was watching a silly video of about an inane part of Quadaffi's rule. And I was struck by just how stoney broke the place is. Not just the civil war damage. The place provided 12% of the worlds oil, oil of the best quality that got premium prices. And the country was impoverished. The man took all that money that could have gone to all kinds of really cool ways to make the people of Libya comfortable and blew every penny on some kind of insanity or another.

One would think that some of that money would have benefited the people, but it looks like the place is worse off than if they were importing the oil, rather than exporting it all.

Random Libya video.

Seems they did quite well from him
1. Free education for all up to Post Grad level
2. Free Health Service
3. Free Housing Loans
4. Free land for farmers
5. 2010, Libya ranked 53rd on the Human Development Index
6. Purchase of cars 50% subsidised by Government
7. Petrol $0.14 per litre
8. No external debt
9. $150 billion reserves
10. Birth of child, Mum receives $5,000
11. 25% of Libyans have University Degree
12. All newlyweds receive $50,000 to help buy first home


Sri Lanka Guardian: The cost of killing Gaddafi

That's why they viciously killed him, hun?

 

[alexa]

I was watching a silly video of about an inane part of Quadaffi's rule. And I was struck by just how stoney broke the place is. Not just the civil war damage. The place provided 12% of the worlds oil, oil of the best quality that got premium prices. And the country was impoverished. The man took all that money that could have gone to all kinds of really cool ways to make the people of Libya comfortable and blew every penny on some kind of insanity or another.

One would think that some of that money would have benefited the people, but it looks like the place is worse off than if they were importing the oil, rather than exporting it all.

Random Libya video.

Seems they did quite well from him
1. Free education for all up to Post Grad level
2. Free Health Service
3. Free Housing Loans
4. Free land for farmers
5. 2010, Libya ranked 53rd on the Human Development Index
6. Purchase of cars 50% subsidised by Government
7. Petrol $0.14 per litre
8. No external debt
9. $150 billion reserves
10. Birth of child, Mum receives $5,000
11. 25% of Libyans have University Degree
12. All newlyweds receive $50,000 to help buy first home


Sri Lanka Guardian: The cost of killing Gaddafi

That's why they viciously killed him, hun?

That was not the Question. Mob mentality killed him.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQd_cq9OTyI]George Galloway & Patrick Mercer: Gaddafi's Death - Due Process Not Mob Mentality [21.10.2011] - YouTube[/ame]

 

[JStone]

Seems they did quite well from him
1. Free education for all up to Post Grad level
2. Free Health Service
3. Free Housing Loans
4. Free land for farmers
5. 2010, Libya ranked 53rd on the Human Development Index
6. Purchase of cars 50% subsidised by Government
7. Petrol $0.14 per litre
8. No external debt
9. $150 billion reserves
10. Birth of child, Mum receives $5,000
11. 25% of Libyans have University Degree
12. All newlyweds receive $50,000 to help buy first home


Sri Lanka Guardian: The cost of killing Gaddafi

That's why they viciously killed him, hun?

That was not the Question. Mob mentality killed him.

George Galloway & Patrick Mercer: Gaddafi's Death

No newlyweds among the mob, hun? Hopefully, Galloway, who never met a dictator he didn't like, meets the same fate.

 

[alexa]

That's why they viciously killed him, hun?

That was not the Question. Mob mentality killed him.

George Galloway & Patrick Mercer: Gaddafi's Death

No newlyweds among the mob, hun? Hopefully, Galloway, who never met a dictator he didn't like, meets the same fate.

Did you listen to the video? Mob mentality killed Gadaffi. However Galloway questions the airstrikes which made this possible particularly as up until months before the Nato bombing we were sending cosy letters to him all warm and brotherly and friendly, just as we had been arranging rendition. There is a belief that possibly Britain and other Western countries did not want what would come out in a trial.

UK Panorama was looking into this last night as well.

Hopefully, Galloway, who never met a dictator he didn't like, meets the same fate.

Did you listen to the video? Galloway was no friend of Gaddafi. You are a murderous sob aren't you. Wonder if you will be laughing so much in a few months. In the video he was speaking to Patrick Mercer an ex army officer and Conservative MP. Towards the end he says

We would be foolish to think that whatever we were going to get would be some kind of Western Model and that in the short term stability was going to return and in the long term what we get is really what we ordered because I doubt if it will be”

source video above.

Now in anticipation of your reply and in the light of previous ones

 

[JStone]

That was not the Question. Mob mentality killed him.

George Galloway & Patrick Mercer: Gaddafi's Death

No newlyweds among the mob, hun? Hopefully, Galloway, who never met a dictator he didn't like, meets the same fate.

Did you listen to the video? Mob mentality killed Gadaffi. However Galloway questions the airstrikes which made this possible particularly as up until months before the Nato bombing we were sending cosy letters to him all warm and brotherly and friendly, just as we had been arranging rendition. There is a belief that possibly Britain and other Western countries did not want what would come out in a trial.

UK Panorama was looking into this last night as well.

Hopefully, Galloway, who never met a dictator he didn't like, meets the same fate.

Did you listen to the video? Galloway was no friend of Gaddafi. You are a murderous sob aren't you. Wonder if you will be laughing so much in a few months. In the video he was speaking to Patrick Mercer an ex army officer and Conservative MP. Towards the end he says

We would be foolish to think that whatever we were going to get would be some kind of Western Model and that in the short term stability was going to return and in the long term what we get is really what we ordered because I doubt if it will be”

source video above.

Now in anticipation of your reply and in the light of previous ones

Did Galloway take kickbacks from Gaddafi, too, like from Saddam, hun?

 

[High_Gravity]

I was watching a silly video of about an inane part of Quadaffi's rule. And I was struck by just how stoney broke the place is. Not just the civil war damage. The place provided 12% of the worlds oil, oil of the best quality that got premium prices. And the country was impoverished. The man took all that money that could have gone to all kinds of really cool ways to make the people of Libya comfortable and blew every penny on some kind of insanity or another.

One would think that some of that money would have benefited the people, but it looks like the place is worse off than if they were importing the oil, rather than exporting it all.

Random Libya video.

Seems they did quite well from him
1. Free education for all up to Post Grad level
2. Free Health Service
3. Free Housing Loans
4. Free land for farmers
5. 2010, Libya ranked 53rd on the Human Development Index
6. Purchase of cars 50% subsidised by Government
7. Petrol $0.14 per litre
8. No external debt
9. $150 billion reserves
10. Birth of child, Mum receives $5,000
11. 25% of Libyans have University Degree
12. All newlyweds receive $50,000 to help buy first home


Sri Lanka Guardian: The cost of killing Gaddafi

From what I heard the schools and hospitals in Libya were shit holes under Gaddafi, if everything was peaches and cream under Gaddafi like you say his people wouldn't have put him down like a rabid dog when they got their hands on him, unless you have lived in Libya under his regime you don't know what life was really like for the Libyans. If Gaddafi took care of his people, there would have been no uprising.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

I was watching a silly video of about an inane part of Quadaffi's rule. And I was struck by just how stoney broke the place is. Not just the civil war damage. The place provided 12% of the worlds oil, oil of the best quality that got premium prices. And the country was impoverished. The man took all that money that could have gone to all kinds of really cool ways to make the people of Libya comfortable and blew every penny on some kind of insanity or another.

One would think that some of that money would have benefited the people, but it looks like the place is worse off than if they were importing the oil, rather than exporting it all.

Random Libya video.

Seems they did quite well from him
1. Free education for all up to Post Grad level
2. Free Health Service
3. Free Housing Loans
4. Free land for farmers
5. 2010, Libya ranked 53rd on the Human Development Index
6. Purchase of cars 50% subsidised by Government
7. Petrol $0.14 per litre
8. No external debt
9. $150 billion reserves
10. Birth of child, Mum receives $5,000
11. 25% of Libyans have University Degree
12. All newlyweds receive $50,000 to help buy first home


Sri Lanka Guardian: The cost of killing Gaddafi

All I can say is that looking at that video, I didn't see the result of any of that. The place looked dirt poor.

 

[alexa]

I was watching a silly video of about an inane part of Quadaffi's rule. And I was struck by just how stoney broke the place is. Not just the civil war damage. The place provided 12% of the worlds oil, oil of the best quality that got premium prices. And the country was impoverished. The man took all that money that could have gone to all kinds of really cool ways to make the people of Libya comfortable and blew every penny on some kind of insanity or another.

One would think that some of that money would have benefited the people, but it looks like the place is worse off than if they were importing the oil, rather than exporting it all.

Random Libya video.

Seems they did quite well from him
1. Free education for all up to Post Grad level
2. Free Health Service
3. Free Housing Loans
4. Free land for farmers
5. 2010, Libya ranked 53rd on the Human Development Index
6. Purchase of cars 50% subsidised by Government
7. Petrol $0.14 per litre
8. No external debt
9. $150 billion reserves
10. Birth of child, Mum receives $5,000
11. 25% of Libyans have University Degree
12. All newlyweds receive $50,000 to help buy first home


Sri Lanka Guardian: The cost of killing Gaddafi

From what I heard the schools and hospitals in Libya were shit holes under Gaddafi, if everything was peaches and cream under Gaddafi like you say his people wouldn't have put him down like a rabid dog when they got their hands on him, unless you have lived in Libya under his regime you don't know what life was really like for the Libyans. If Gaddafi took care of his people, there would have been no uprising.

I have never been to Libya High Gravity. That was an article from the Sri Lanka Guardian. I think what he provided depends on who you speak to. All our tv stations were telling us Libyans were the best educated in the Arab world - yet speak to an anti Gaddafi and they will say, no, no that is just what they say, it was extremely poor. So much is propaganda

Gaddafi seems to have originally been popular but become less so. I think it is impossible to know what the situation really was. There seemed to be a civil war going on but the stuff about genocide and rape as a tactic seems not to have been true according to Amnesty and HRW.

I just think there is something very fishy on. One day we are all cosied up with him and the next bombing him out of existence. So many people have said that the West would not like to hear what would come out in trials that it is difficult not to believe and our Panorma read some of these first name letters concerning rendition and so on last night.

People tell me he was a bastard and that torture was going on there. That obviously is horrible. Yet who are we to speak when we sent people there to be tortured and hence were complicit in that torture.

There seems to have been one mass killing at a prison in the 90's but even with that the facts are not clear.

At the same time the people who we have been helping have also been raping and killing for the sake of killing.

What we do know is that he did keep Islam extremism at bay.

I just think we do not have a clue where this is leading and I am wondering why it began - I would bet not to save civilians and it certainly did not stick with that.

 

[High_Gravity]

I was watching a silly video of about an inane part of Quadaffi's rule. And I was struck by just how stoney broke the place is. Not just the civil war damage. The place provided 12% of the worlds oil, oil of the best quality that got premium prices. And the country was impoverished. The man took all that money that could have gone to all kinds of really cool ways to make the people of Libya comfortable and blew every penny on some kind of insanity or another.

One would think that some of that money would have benefited the people, but it looks like the place is worse off than if they were importing the oil, rather than exporting it all.

Random Libya video.

Seems they did quite well from him
1. Free education for all up to Post Grad level
2. Free Health Service
3. Free Housing Loans
4. Free land for farmers
5. 2010, Libya ranked 53rd on the Human Development Index
6. Purchase of cars 50% subsidised by Government
7. Petrol $0.14 per litre
8. No external debt
9. $150 billion reserves
10. Birth of child, Mum receives $5,000
11. 25% of Libyans have University Degree
12. All newlyweds receive $50,000 to help buy first home


Sri Lanka Guardian: The cost of killing Gaddafi

All I can say is that looking at that video, I didn't see the result of any of that. The place looked dirt poor.

It was, Libya was pretty much a third world shit hole and with that small population and all that oil wealth they should have been doing much better.

 

[High_Gravity]

Seems they did quite well from him
1. Free education for all up to Post Grad level
2. Free Health Service
3. Free Housing Loans
4. Free land for farmers
5. 2010, Libya ranked 53rd on the Human Development Index
6. Purchase of cars 50% subsidised by Government
7. Petrol $0.14 per litre
8. No external debt
9. $150 billion reserves
10. Birth of child, Mum receives $5,000
11. 25% of Libyans have University Degree
12. All newlyweds receive $50,000 to help buy first home


Sri Lanka Guardian: The cost of killing Gaddafi

From what I heard the schools and hospitals in Libya were shit holes under Gaddafi, if everything was peaches and cream under Gaddafi like you say his people wouldn't have put him down like a rabid dog when they got their hands on him, unless you have lived in Libya under his regime you don't know what life was really like for the Libyans. If Gaddafi took care of his people, there would have been no uprising.

I have never been to Libya High Gravity. That was an article from the Sri Lanka Guardian. I think what he provided depends on who you speak to. All our tv stations were telling us Libyans were the best educated in the Arab world - yet speak to an anti Gaddafi and they will say, no, no that is just what they say, it was extremely poor. So much is propaganda

Gaddafi seems to have originally been popular but become less so. I think it is impossible to know what the situation really was. There seemed to be a civil war going on but the stuff about genocide and rape as a tactic seems not to have been true according to Amnesty and HRW.

I just think there is something very fishy on. One day we are all cosied up with him and the next bombing him out of existence. So many people have said that the West would not like to hear what would come out in trials that it is difficult not to believe and our Panorma read some of these first name letters concerning rendition and so on last night.

People tell me he was a bastard and that torture was going on there. That obviously is horrible. Yet who are we to speak when we sent people there to be tortured and hence were complicit in that torture.

There seems to have been one mass killing at a prison in the 90's but even with that the facts are not clear.

At the same time the people who we have been helping have also been raping and killing for the sake of killing.

What we do know is that he did keep Islam extremism at bay.

I just think we do not have a clue where this is leading and I am wondering why it began - I would bet not to save civilians and it certainly did not stick with that.

These were Libyans that over threw Gaddafi, not US Troops or NATO Ground forces, obviously there were enough people angry with him that it led to this. I never wanted us to get involved with this Libya thing if you read my older posts but we are where we are, all I can do is hope and pray the Libyans will do the right thing.

 

[JStone]

Seems they did quite well from him
1. Free education for all up to Post Grad level
2. Free Health Service
3. Free Housing Loans
4. Free land for farmers
5. 2010, Libya ranked 53rd on the Human Development Index
6. Purchase of cars 50% subsidised by Government
7. Petrol $0.14 per litre
8. No external debt
9. $150 billion reserves
10. Birth of child, Mum receives $5,000
11. 25% of Libyans have University Degree
12. All newlyweds receive $50,000 to help buy first home


Sri Lanka Guardian: The cost of killing Gaddafi

From what I heard the schools and hospitals in Libya were shit holes under Gaddafi, if everything was peaches and cream under Gaddafi like you say his people wouldn't have put him down like a rabid dog when they got their hands on him, unless you have lived in Libya under his regime you don't know what life was really like for the Libyans. If Gaddafi took care of his people, there would have been no uprising.

I have never been to Libya High Gravity. That was an article from the Sri Lanka Guardian. I think what he provided depends on who you speak to. All our tv stations were telling us Libyans were the best educated in the Arab world - yet speak to an anti Gaddafi and they will say, no, no that is just what they say, it was extremely poor. So much is propaganda

Gaddafi seems to have originally been popular but become less so. I think it is impossible to know what the situation really was. There seemed to be a civil war going on but the stuff about genocide and rape as a tactic seems not to have been true according to Amnesty and HRW.

I just think there is something very fishy on. One day we are all cosied up with him and the next bombing him out of existence. So many people have said that the West would not like to hear what would come out in trials that it is difficult not to believe and our Panorma read some of these first name letters concerning rendition and so on last night.

People tell me he was a bastard and that torture was going on there. That obviously is horrible. Yet who are we to speak when we sent people there to be tortured and hence were complicit in that torture.

There seems to have been one mass killing at a prison in the 90's but even with that the facts are not clear.

At the same time the people who we have been helping have also been raping and killing for the sake of killing.

What we do know is that he did keep Islam extremism at bay.

I just think we do not have a clue where this is leading and I am wondering why it began - I would bet not to save civilians and it certainly did not stick with that.

Gaddafi kept "islam extremism" at bay

 

[alexa]

From what I heard the schools and hospitals in Libya were shit holes under Gaddafi, if everything was peaches and cream under Gaddafi like you say his people wouldn't have put him down like a rabid dog when they got their hands on him, unless you have lived in Libya under his regime you don't know what life was really like for the Libyans. If Gaddafi took care of his people, there would have been no uprising.

I have never been to Libya High Gravity. That was an article from the Sri Lanka Guardian. I think what he provided depends on who you speak to. All our tv stations were telling us Libyans were the best educated in the Arab world - yet speak to an anti Gaddafi and they will say, no, no that is just what they say, it was extremely poor. So much is propaganda

Gaddafi seems to have originally been popular but become less so. I think it is impossible to know what the situation really was. There seemed to be a civil war going on but the stuff about genocide and rape as a tactic seems not to have been true according to Amnesty and HRW.

I just think there is something very fishy on. One day we are all cosied up with him and the next bombing him out of existence. So many people have said that the West would not like to hear what would come out in trials that it is difficult not to believe and our Panorma read some of these first name letters concerning rendition and so on last night.

People tell me he was a bastard and that torture was going on there. That obviously is horrible. Yet who are we to speak when we sent people there to be tortured and hence were complicit in that torture.

There seems to have been one mass killing at a prison in the 90's but even with that the facts are not clear.

At the same time the people who we have been helping have also been raping and killing for the sake of killing.

What we do know is that he did keep Islam extremism at bay.

I just think we do not have a clue where this is leading and I am wondering why it began - I would bet not to save civilians and it certainly did not stick with that.

These were Libyans that over threw Gaddafi, not US Troops or NATO Ground forces, obviously there were enough people angry with him that it led to this. I never wanted us to get involved with this Libya thing if you read my older posts but we are where we are, all I can do is hope and pray the Libyans will do the right thing.

If Gaddafi troops moved they got bombed. If the other's moved not. It is a mute point and they would not have captured him without the air attack.

I do not deny that there were many Libyans who were against him. We all know that but at the same time there were many pro him. It was a civil war. Very early on I heard a Libyan talking about how mysterious people had come in the night and blown up an army barracks and all the people in it. He said he had been told with petrol bombs. I am no explosive expert but the pile of rubble I saw looked like more than that.

You know, I know there are different tribes in Libya including a fair number of Al Qaeda types. I think it was a civil war and for some reason we chose one side.

The amount of bombing was enormous and from the beginning seemed to be going after Gaddafi - even Putin complained.

I am simply saying I do not think we know the whole story and I think we probably should heed Patric Mercer

We would be foolish to think that whatever we were going to get would be some kind of Western Model and that in the short term stability was going to return and in the long term what we get is really what we ordered because I doubt if it will be”

and be cautious.

but we are where we are, all I can do is hope and pray the Libyans will do the right thing.

Agreed. Let's hope they will surprise us and that is certainly possible.

 

[High_Gravity]

I have never been to Libya High Gravity. That was an article from the Sri Lanka Guardian. I think what he provided depends on who you speak to. All our tv stations were telling us Libyans were the best educated in the Arab world - yet speak to an anti Gaddafi and they will say, no, no that is just what they say, it was extremely poor. So much is propaganda

Gaddafi seems to have originally been popular but become less so. I think it is impossible to know what the situation really was. There seemed to be a civil war going on but the stuff about genocide and rape as a tactic seems not to have been true according to Amnesty and HRW.

I just think there is something very fishy on. One day we are all cosied up with him and the next bombing him out of existence. So many people have said that the West would not like to hear what would come out in trials that it is difficult not to believe and our Panorma read some of these first name letters concerning rendition and so on last night.

People tell me he was a bastard and that torture was going on there. That obviously is horrible. Yet who are we to speak when we sent people there to be tortured and hence were complicit in that torture.

There seems to have been one mass killing at a prison in the 90's but even with that the facts are not clear.

At the same time the people who we have been helping have also been raping and killing for the sake of killing.

What we do know is that he did keep Islam extremism at bay.

I just think we do not have a clue where this is leading and I am wondering why it began - I would bet not to save civilians and it certainly did not stick with that.

These were Libyans that over threw Gaddafi, not US Troops or NATO Ground forces, obviously there were enough people angry with him that it led to this. I never wanted us to get involved with this Libya thing if you read my older posts but we are where we are, all I can do is hope and pray the Libyans will do the right thing.

If Gaddafi troops moved they got bombed. If the other's moved not. It is a mute point and they would not have captured him without the air attack.

I do not deny that there were many Libyans who were against him. We all know that but at the same time there were many pro him. It was a civil war. Very early on I heard a Libyan talking about how mysterious people had come in the night and blown up an army barracks and all the people in it. He said he had been told with petrol bombs. I am no explosive expert but the pile of rubble I saw looked like more than that.

You know, I know there are different tribes in Libya including a fair number of Al Qaeda types. I think it was a civil war and for some reason we chose one side.

The amount of bombing was enormous and from the beginning seemed to be going after Gaddafi - even Putin complained.

I am simply saying I do not think we know the whole story and I think we probably should heed Patric Mercer

We would be foolish to think that whatever we were going to get would be some kind of Western Model and that in the short term stability was going to return and in the long term what we get is really what we ordered because I doubt if it will be”

and be cautious.

but we are where we are, all I can do is hope and pray the Libyans will do the right thing.

Agreed. Let's hope they will surprise us and that is certainly possible.

I agree none of this would have happened without NATO air power but at the same time the Libyans were doing all the ground work and Gaddafi recruited alot of foreign fighters and mercenaries from outside the country, in fact he had units of the Libyan Military who were not even from Libya even before this whole thing started. Like you said, I am hoping the Libyans will surprise us although them making Sharia law the basis of their constitution looks worrying.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

Since Libya had so many crazy subsidies, it might even be the case that because of all these subsidies the Libyan economy was stifled and unable to grow organically. Just because he spent a lot of money on schools does not mean they taught anything useful. Our experience here in the US often shows a negative co relation between spending on schools and school quality. Washington DC being a prime example.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the money, subsidies, and economy of Libya in the future. Qaddaffi's management was obviously not stellar.

 

[alexa]

These were Libyans that over threw Gaddafi, not US Troops or NATO Ground forces, obviously there were enough people angry with him that it led to this. I never wanted us to get involved with this Libya thing if you read my older posts but we are where we are, all I can do is hope and pray the Libyans will do the right thing.

If Gaddafi troops moved they got bombed. If the other's moved not. It is a mute point and they would not have captured him without the air attack.

I do not deny that there were many Libyans who were against him. We all know that but at the same time there were many pro him. It was a civil war. Very early on I heard a Libyan talking about how mysterious people had come in the night and blown up an army barracks and all the people in it. He said he had been told with petrol bombs. I am no explosive expert but the pile of rubble I saw looked like more than that.

You know, I know there are different tribes in Libya including a fair number of Al Qaeda types. I think it was a civil war and for some reason we chose one side.

The amount of bombing was enormous and from the beginning seemed to be going after Gaddafi - even Putin complained.

I am simply saying I do not think we know the whole story and I think we probably should heed Patric Mercer and be cautious.

but we are where we are, all I can do is hope and pray the Libyans will do the right thing.

Agreed. Let's hope they will surprise us and that is certainly possible.

I agree none of this would have happened without NATO air power but at the same time the Libyans were doing all the ground work and Gaddafi recruited alot of foreign fighters and mercenaries from outside the country, in fact he had units of the Libyan Military who were not even from Libya even before this whole thing started. Like you said, I am hoping the Libyans will surprise us although them making Sharia law the basis of their constitution looks worrying.

I am not convinced as to how many mercenaries he had. Sometimes I have heard that. I have also heard in particular one black guy who said it simply wasn't true. He was fighting in the normal army as were the others. It is not at all unlikely given his eccentricities and apparent paranoia that he had some private army people but I have heard that this was propaganda.

I have also heard that black soldiers and even non soldiers have all been treated as mercenaries, getting a dreadful fate, often resulting in death.

Like you said, I am hoping the Libyans will surprise us although them making Sharia law the basis of their constitution looks worrying.

I hadn't realised they had done that. I heard them say they were going to be a democracy but were going to have Sharia as their law. Obviously Sharia can be no more severe than our laws so it would depend how they work that out. I was a pit perturbed to discover they immediately have made polygamy legal.

I then thought OMG they are not going to go by something like Iran's system are they? You would think no one would be that daft as, having lived under it for a while the Iranians are wanting proper democracy.

Hopefully if they do go for a proper democracy, even if their law is Sharia, the parliament will have the right to change that if/when it wants and if it is genuine democracy for all the people, then they will change it when they are ready - that is if they are not in another civil war??

anyway yes, fingers crossed. I did hear some say that during the war they had changed and that people had become less militant than before, so yes, fingers crossed.

I guess when we hear the full constitution we will know a bit more.

I am far less concerned about Tunisia which has elected a moderate Islamic party.

Islamic Party Claims Victory in Tunisia Election | News | English

 

[High_Gravity]

If Gaddafi troops moved they got bombed. If the other's moved not. It is a mute point and they would not have captured him without the air attack.

I do not deny that there were many Libyans who were against him. We all know that but at the same time there were many pro him. It was a civil war. Very early on I heard a Libyan talking about how mysterious people had come in the night and blown up an army barracks and all the people in it. He said he had been told with petrol bombs. I am no explosive expert but the pile of rubble I saw looked like more than that.

You know, I know there are different tribes in Libya including a fair number of Al Qaeda types. I think it was a civil war and for some reason we chose one side.

The amount of bombing was enormous and from the beginning seemed to be going after Gaddafi - even Putin complained.

I am simply saying I do not think we know the whole story and I think we probably should heed Patric Mercer and be cautious.



Agreed. Let's hope they will surprise us and that is certainly possible.

I agree none of this would have happened without NATO air power but at the same time the Libyans were doing all the ground work and Gaddafi recruited alot of foreign fighters and mercenaries from outside the country, in fact he had units of the Libyan Military who were not even from Libya even before this whole thing started. Like you said, I am hoping the Libyans will surprise us although them making Sharia law the basis of their constitution looks worrying.

I am not convinced as to how many mercenaries he had. Sometimes I have heard that. I have also heard in particular one black guy who said it simply wasn't true. He was fighting in the normal army as were the others. It is not at all unlikely given his eccentricities and apparent paranoia that he had some private army people but I have heard that this was propaganda.

I have also heard that black soldiers and even non soldiers have all been treated as mercenaries, getting a dreadful fate, often resulting in death.

Like you said, I am hoping the Libyans will surprise us although them making Sharia law the basis of their constitution looks worrying.

I hadn't realised they had done that. I heard them say they were going to be a democracy but were going to have Sharia as their law. Obviously Sharia can be no more severe than our laws so it would depend how they work that out. I was a pit perturbed to discover they immediately have made polygamy legal.

I then thought OMG they are not going to go by something like Iran's system are they? You would think no one would be that daft as, having lived under it for a while the Iranians are wanting proper democracy.

Hopefully if they do go for a proper democracy, even if their law is Sharia, the parliament will have the right to change that if/when it wants and if it is genuine democracy for all the people, then they will change it when they are ready - that is if they are not in another civil war??

anyway yes, fingers crossed. I did hear some say that during the war they had changed and that people had become less militant than before, so yes, fingers crossed.

I guess when we hear the full constitution we will know a bit more.

I am far less concerned about Tunisia which has elected a moderate Islamic party.

Islamic Party Claims Victory in Tunisia Election | News | English

Its just different I guess, whenever we hear the words "Sharia law" here in the West we get nervous but for the Muslims they love it, alot of the rebels who fought Gaddafi were religious so we shouldn't be too shocked that this happened. We will see how things go from here, unlike Afghanistan after the Soviets left, Libya has oil and alot of international interest in helping them, hopefully that will turn the corner for the Libyans.

 

[L.K.Eder]

Seems they did quite well from him
1. Free education for all up to Post Grad level
2. Free Health Service
3. Free Housing Loans
4. Free land for farmers
5. 2010, Libya ranked 53rd on the Human Development Index
6. Purchase of cars 50% subsidised by Government
7. Petrol $0.14 per litre
8. No external debt
9. $150 billion reserves
10. Birth of child, Mum receives $5,000
11. 25% of Libyans have University Degree
12. All newlyweds receive $50,000 to help buy first home


Sri Lanka Guardian: The cost of killing Gaddafi

From what I heard the schools and hospitals in Libya were shit holes under Gaddafi, if everything was peaches and cream under Gaddafi like you say his people wouldn't have put him down like a rabid dog when they got their hands on him, unless you have lived in Libya under his regime you don't know what life was really like for the Libyans. If Gaddafi took care of his people, there would have been no uprising.

I have never been to Libya High Gravity. That was an article from the Sri Lanka Guardian. I think what he provided depends on who you speak to. All our tv stations were telling us Libyans were the best educated in the Arab world - yet speak to an anti Gaddafi and they will say, no, no that is just what they say, it was extremely poor. So much is propaganda

Gaddafi seems to have originally been popular but become less so. I think it is impossible to know what the situation really was. There seemed to be a civil war going on but the stuff about genocide and rape as a tactic seems not to have been true according to Amnesty and HRW.

I just think there is something very fishy on. One day we are all cosied up with him and the next bombing him out of existence. So many people have said that the West would not like to hear what would come out in trials that it is difficult not to believe and our Panorma read some of these first name letters concerning rendition and so on last night.

People tell me he was a bastard and that torture was going on there. That obviously is horrible. Yet who are we to speak when we sent people there to be tortured and hence were complicit in that torture.

There seems to have been one mass killing at a prison in the 90's but even with that the facts are not clear.

At the same time the people who we have been helping have also been raping and killing for the sake of killing.

What we do know is that he did keep Islam extremism at bay.

I just think we do not have a clue where this is leading and I am wondering why it began - I would bet not to save civilians and it certainly did not stick with that.

i was in libya.

i crossed the tunisian-libyan border.

the difference in cars you saw on the highways and quality of the infrastructure was obvious.

libya seemed to be a rich country, compared to tunisia.

at least on the small densely populated strip along the mediterranean.

sebha, however, was mad max territory, as was most of the rest of the populated libya i saw.


i have to say that it was relaxing to stroll in the tripoli bazar. in the rest of north africa that would have been one nightmarish hassle.