Judges Chapter 11- Did God Demand A Virgin Sacrifice?

The word in both verses is cuwth, which means incite, lure, instigate, or entice. It does not mean ordered.

Incite or instigate means that they wanted David to do this, so God would come back later and punish him for it. Logically, I suppose the Chronicles version makes a bit more sense, Satan being a cosmic Eddie Haskel always getting David and the Beav in trouble.

Really, though, totally inexcusable to kill 70,000 people over something as petty as a census.

Now, a rational person would realize these were Bronze Age savages, and "God" was the go to explanation for everything they didn't understand. THunder? Must be God. Plague? Must be God. Hoard of Locust? Must be God. Enemies who don't believe in God defeat you and burn down your temple? You must not be believing in God sincerely enough.

It that some of you want to use this as a basis of morality in the 21st century that's kind of scary. 9/11? God must be unhappy about the Gheys (Robertson) or racial inequality (Wright).

Actually, it doesn't. You can be held legally responsible for inciting a riot even if you can prove you did not want to start one.

Is that really the best you can come up with?

We are talking about God, he who knows all and sees all (again, if you buy the version in 2 Samuel and not the one in 1 Chronicles). How could he not "incite" a census when he didn't want to start one.

Why would he need to incite a census at all, since he knows all and sees all? He already knows how many Israelites he has available to torture and kill, which seems to be his predominate activity in the Bible.
 
all ancient societies sacrifice virgins

Actually, not really the case at all.

In fact, most societies that practiced sacrifices of animals or humans usually sacrificed the males because they were less useful.

Judges 11 is the only source that actually describes "sacrificing a virgin", but it something we associate with pagan socieites.
 
Incite or instigate means that they wanted David to do this, so God would come back later and punish him for it. Logically, I suppose the Chronicles version makes a bit more sense, Satan being a cosmic Eddie Haskel always getting David and the Beav in trouble.

Really, though, totally inexcusable to kill 70,000 people over something as petty as a census.

Now, a rational person would realize these were Bronze Age savages, and "God" was the go to explanation for everything they didn't understand. THunder? Must be God. Plague? Must be God. Hoard of Locust? Must be God. Enemies who don't believe in God defeat you and burn down your temple? You must not be believing in God sincerely enough.

It that some of you want to use this as a basis of morality in the 21st century that's kind of scary. 9/11? God must be unhappy about the Gheys (Robertson) or racial inequality (Wright).

Actually, it doesn't. You can be held legally responsible for inciting a riot even if you can prove you did not want to start one.

Is that really the best you can come up with?

We are talking about God, he who knows all and sees all (again, if you buy the version in 2 Samuel and not the one in 1 Chronicles). How could he not "incite" a census when he didn't want to start one.

Why would he need to incite a census at all, since he knows all and sees all? He already knows how many Israelites he has available to torture and kill, which seems to be his predominate activity in the Bible.

No, we are not talking about God. I am talking about a couple of verses in the Bible that you are deliberately misinterpreting in an attempt to prove that God, as you define Him, does not exist. The all knowing, all seeing, God you are talking about is the invention of Aristotle, who lived a few years after David died. The writers of the books you are quoting are not responsible for his thoughts.

From the verses it is quite clear that what God wanted to do was punish Israel, not count them. Feel free to muddle along in your delusions that you actually understand the Bible, despite the fact that you admit you never actually studied it, just do not expect me to play along.
 
No, we are not talking about God. I am talking about a couple of verses in the Bible that you are deliberately misinterpreting in an attempt to prove that God, as you define Him, does not exist. The all knowing, all seeing, God you are talking about is the invention of Aristotle, who lived a few years after David died. The writers of the books you are quoting are not responsible for his thoughts.

From the verses it is quite clear that what God wanted to do was punish Israel, not count them. Feel free to muddle along in your delusions that you actually understand the Bible, despite the fact that you admit you never actually studied it, just do not expect me to play along.

You're excuses keep getting lamer. So what you are saying is the bible guys got it wrong? Seriously? God didn't incite the census? But David was like on God's Fav-Five. He totally had him friended on FaceScroll, or whatever they did back then.

So if God told him to do a census, he was doing a census.

ZBut then God didn't want a census, so instead of punishing David, nope, we are going to kill 70,000 Israelites instead, because that seems perfectly reasonable.
 
No, we are not talking about God. I am talking about a couple of verses in the Bible that you are deliberately misinterpreting in an attempt to prove that God, as you define Him, does not exist. The all knowing, all seeing, God you are talking about is the invention of Aristotle, who lived a few years after David died. The writers of the books you are quoting are not responsible for his thoughts.

From the verses it is quite clear that what God wanted to do was punish Israel, not count them. Feel free to muddle along in your delusions that you actually understand the Bible, despite the fact that you admit you never actually studied it, just do not expect me to play along.

You're excuses keep getting lamer. So what you are saying is the bible guys got it wrong? Seriously? God didn't incite the census? But David was like on God's Fav-Five. He totally had him friended on FaceScroll, or whatever they did back then.

So if God told him to do a census, he was doing a census.

ZBut then God didn't want a census, so instead of punishing David, nope, we are going to kill 70,000 Israelites instead, because that seems perfectly reasonable.

I am not making excuses, I am exposing the holes in your logic?

Did they get it wrong?

How the frack would I know? I don't claim to have been there, nor do I claim to know everything. I let jerks like you do that, then mock them when they get it wrong. God did not want a census, that has already been established by the fact that He specifically forbade them.
 
I am not making excuses, I am exposing the holes in your logic?

Did they get it wrong?

How the frack would I know? I don't claim to have been there, nor do I claim to know everything. I let jerks like you do that, then mock them when they get it wrong. God did not want a census, that has already been established by the fact that He specifically forbade them.

Where does it say in the bible that God specifically forbade a census? It doesn't.

In fact, God told Moses to do a census in the book of Numbers (which is why it is called the book of Numbers.) In fact, apologists who are actually better at this than you are (which means they sound less like Corky the Retard when making an argument) try to claim that the reason God killed all those people was because Israel didn't pay their Census Tax to God.

Which is still stupid, immoral and silly.

Sensible explanation. Right after David did a census, a plague broke out, and stupid bronze age savages who didn't know what a germ was tried to draw a correlation.
 
No, we are not talking about God. I am talking about a couple of verses in the Bible that you are deliberately misinterpreting in an attempt to prove that God, as you define Him, does not exist. The all knowing, all seeing, God you are talking about is the invention of Aristotle, who lived a few years after David died. The writers of the books you are quoting are not responsible for his thoughts.

From the verses it is quite clear that what God wanted to do was punish Israel, not count them. Feel free to muddle along in your delusions that you actually understand the Bible, despite the fact that you admit you never actually studied it, just do not expect me to play along.

You're excuses keep getting lamer. So what you are saying is the bible guys got it wrong? Seriously? God didn't incite the census? But David was like on God's Fav-Five. He totally had him friended on FaceScroll, or whatever they did back then.

So if God told him to do a census, he was doing a census.

ZBut then God didn't want a census, so instead of punishing David, nope, we are going to kill 70,000 Israelites instead, because that seems perfectly reasonable.

David did a lot of things on his own, and paid the consequences for his bad behavior. The reason David was the "apple of God's eye" was because God is very forgiving and David truly was repentant to the extent his mistakes haunted him. When he asked God to forgive him, he REALLY WAS SORROWFUL for what he had done, AND, he realized that His sins first and foremost were against God. David hurt God first when he disobeyed Him.
 
I am not making excuses, I am exposing the holes in your logic?

Did they get it wrong?

How the frack would I know? I don't claim to have been there, nor do I claim to know everything. I let jerks like you do that, then mock them when they get it wrong. God did not want a census, that has already been established by the fact that He specifically forbade them.

Where does it say in the bible that God specifically forbade a census? It doesn't.

In fact, God told Moses to do a census in the book of Numbers (which is why it is called the book of Numbers.) In fact, apologists who are actually better at this than you are (which means they sound less like Corky the Retard when making an argument) try to claim that the reason God killed all those people was because Israel didn't pay their Census Tax to God.

Which is still stupid, immoral and silly.

Sensible explanation. Right after David did a census, a plague broke out, and stupid bronze age savages who didn't know what a germ was tried to draw a correlation.

Damn, you got me.

Wait, did you read 1 Chronicles 21:3? And Joab answered, The LORD make his people an hundred times so many more as they [be]: but, my lord the king, [are] they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel?

I didn't think so.
 
No, we are not talking about God. I am talking about a couple of verses in the Bible that you are deliberately misinterpreting in an attempt to prove that God, as you define Him, does not exist. The all knowing, all seeing, God you are talking about is the invention of Aristotle, who lived a few years after David died. The writers of the books you are quoting are not responsible for his thoughts.

From the verses it is quite clear that what God wanted to do was punish Israel, not count them. Feel free to muddle along in your delusions that you actually understand the Bible, despite the fact that you admit you never actually studied it, just do not expect me to play along.

You're excuses keep getting lamer. So what you are saying is the bible guys got it wrong? Seriously? God didn't incite the census? But David was like on God's Fav-Five. He totally had him friended on FaceScroll, or whatever they did back then.

So if God told him to do a census, he was doing a census.

ZBut then God didn't want a census, so instead of punishing David, nope, we are going to kill 70,000 Israelites instead, because that seems perfectly reasonable.

David did a lot of things on his own, and paid the consequences for his bad behavior. The reason David was the "apple of God's eye" was because God is very forgiving and David truly was repentant to the extent his mistakes haunted him. When he asked God to forgive him, he REALLY WAS SORROWFUL for what he had done, AND, he realized that His sins first and foremost were against God. David hurt God first when he disobeyed Him.

Actually, David did things that were no big deal God punished other people for.

A Census wasn't a big deal. Certainly not worth killing 70K people for.

A bigger deal was getting poor Uriah killed because David knocked up his wife. But the only reason he did that was that Uriah wouldn't have sex with his wife until the war was won, and the Law God put down would call for Bathsheba to be killed. (Again, these are savages, not sensible people. If anyone though Bathsheba should have been killed for submitting to the King, they have serious problems.) So God decides he's going to teach David a lesson by killing an innocent baby. That's the kind of God we are talking about here.

On the other hand, when David did truly awful stuff like slaughtering 22,000 Aramians, or Edomites, or Philistines, or the remaining members of Saul's family, God was totally down with that.
 
I am not making excuses, I am exposing the holes in your logic?

Did they get it wrong?

How the frack would I know? I don't claim to have been there, nor do I claim to know everything. I let jerks like you do that, then mock them when they get it wrong. God did not want a census, that has already been established by the fact that He specifically forbade them.

Where does it say in the bible that God specifically forbade a census? It doesn't.

In fact, God told Moses to do a census in the book of Numbers (which is why it is called the book of Numbers.) In fact, apologists who are actually better at this than you are (which means they sound less like Corky the Retard when making an argument) try to claim that the reason God killed all those people was because Israel didn't pay their Census Tax to God.

Which is still stupid, immoral and silly.

Sensible explanation. Right after David did a census, a plague broke out, and stupid bronze age savages who didn't know what a germ was tried to draw a correlation.

Damn, you got me.

Wait, did you read 1 Chronicles 21:3? And Joab answered, The LORD make his people an hundred times so many more as they [be]: but, my lord the king, [are] they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel?

I didn't think so.

I did read it, and it was kind of a so what? Keeping in mind, Chronicles was written later when tehy were blaming Satan for all sorts of stuff that God did earlier...
 
Where does it say in the bible that God specifically forbade a census? It doesn't.

In fact, God told Moses to do a census in the book of Numbers (which is why it is called the book of Numbers.) In fact, apologists who are actually better at this than you are (which means they sound less like Corky the Retard when making an argument) try to claim that the reason God killed all those people was because Israel didn't pay their Census Tax to God.

Which is still stupid, immoral and silly.

Sensible explanation. Right after David did a census, a plague broke out, and stupid bronze age savages who didn't know what a germ was tried to draw a correlation.

Damn, you got me.

Wait, did you read 1 Chronicles 21:3? And Joab answered, The LORD make his people an hundred times so many more as they [be]: but, my lord the king, [are] they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel?

I didn't think so.

I did read it, and it was kind of a so what? Keeping in mind, Chronicles was written later when tehy were blaming Satan for all sorts of stuff that God did earlier...

Actually, Chronicles is a separate history of Israel that was written at the same time as Kings and follows the history of Israel using a didactic approach rather than a historical one. Both Chronicles and Kings were probably written using the same sources at about the same time.
 
Damn, you got me.

Wait, did you read 1 Chronicles 21:3? And Joab answered, The LORD make his people an hundred times so many more as they [be]: but, my lord the king, [are] they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel?

I didn't think so.

I did read it, and it was kind of a so what? Keeping in mind, Chronicles was written later when tehy were blaming Satan for all sorts of stuff that God did earlier...

Actually, Chronicles is a separate history of Israel that was written at the same time as Kings and follows the history of Israel using a didactic approach rather than a historical one. Both Chronicles and Kings were probably written using the same sources at about the same time.

Even reading the texts bears the lie to that.

2 Kings ends at the fall of Jerusalem. 2 Chronicles ends at the reign of Cyrus the Great and the fall of Babylon.

Why is this signifigant?

Kings was probably written by Hebrews who were a lot closer to the faith as it was practiced.

Chronicles is written some time after Cyrus, including the influences of Zoroasterism, the Persian state religion that had a Good God (Ahura-Mazda) and a evil one (Ahriman). So the notion of Satan as an adversary was more pronounced.
 
I did read it, and it was kind of a so what? Keeping in mind, Chronicles was written later when tehy were blaming Satan for all sorts of stuff that God did earlier...

Actually, Chronicles is a separate history of Israel that was written at the same time as Kings and follows the history of Israel using a didactic approach rather than a historical one. Both Chronicles and Kings were probably written using the same sources at about the same time.

Even reading the texts bears the lie to that.

2 Kings ends at the fall of Jerusalem. 2 Chronicles ends at the reign of Cyrus the Great and the fall of Babylon.

Why is this signifigant?

Kings was probably written by Hebrews who were a lot closer to the faith as it was practiced.

Chronicles is written some time after Cyrus, including the influences of Zoroasterism, the Persian state religion that had a Good God (Ahura-Mazda) and a evil one (Ahriman). So the notion of Satan as an adversary was more pronounced.

Every time you post you look dumber.

Nothing you just said contradicts my assertion that they used the same sources, or that they were written at the same time. The historical texts also include Ezra and Nehemiah. The fact that there were after edits to the Chronicles that added in the story of Cyrus and updated some of the names of the cities does not prove anything about when it was initially written, does it?
 
Every time you post you look dumber.

Nothing you just said contradicts my assertion that they used the same sources, or that they were written at the same time. The historical texts also include Ezra and Nehemiah. The fact that there were after edits to the Chronicles that added in the story of Cyrus and updated some of the names of the cities does not prove anything about when it was initially written, does it?

No, but teh scholarship indicates that Chronicles was written much later, to reflect that Judeism as a distinct religion from what the Hebrews had previous practiced.

Hey, let's not forget, in QBJ's attempts to get us off subject, the topic here was God and how much he likes Barbeque Virgin.

Anyone got anything to add on the topic? Or can we just conceded that God's actions in this story are fairly reprehensible. He allowed genocide in exchance for a virgin sacrifice, after all.
 

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