Judges Chapter 11- Did God Demand A Virgin Sacrifice?

[JoeB131]

If you are not familiar with the story, and honestly, I never heard it in 12 years of Catholic Education, here it is...

SAB, Judges 11

Long story short, Jephthah the Gileadite asks Yahweh for help with his battle with the Ammonites. To sweeten the pot, he vows to God that he will offer up as a burnt offering the first thing that he encounters when returning home. God must have been down with this, because the Ammonites are completely crushed.

Well, surprise, the first thing that greets him at his door is his daughter. He lets her know that he has vowed to sacrifice here (seriously, was he expecting to meet a cow or a dog or something?) and he must keep his word. His daughter goes off to bewail the fact she will die a virgin.

Now, here's the interesting point for all you believers out there. God did not do what he did in teh whole Isaac story and stop it at the last minute. He seems to passively allow this offer and passively allow the sacrifice. (A few apologists claim she lived as a virgin for the rest of her life, and that was her "sacrifice". Any reading of the bible would debunk that.) He could have told Jephthah no, or arranged for a dumb animal to greet him or just intervene..

But he didn't.

Thoughts?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It shows the folly of making a vow without thinking it through. Bit complicated concept for a person that thinks he understands everything and actually knows nothing.

 

[Ariux]

Joe, I think you're a shithead. God didn't ask him to kill his daughter. God didn't reward him for killing his daughter.

In fact, I'd say this reflects a lack of faith on Jephthah's part. The context shows that God was already going to give the victory to the Israelites, before Jephthah's promise. Yet, Jephthah still tried to buy God's blessing (which isn't for sale in the first place) by offering a member of his household as a sacrifice.

God wasn't going to change his plans for Israel based on the idiocy of a bastard.

 

[JoeB131]

It shows the folly of making a vow without thinking it through. Bit complicated concept for a person that thinks he understands everything and actually knows nothing.

It's not a complicated things at all.

Jephthah's daughter did not deserve to be butchered, dismembered and burned because her father made a rash and foolish vow that violated God's commandments.

Any God who would make a demand that such an oath be fulfilled isn't worthy of anyone's worship.

The problem with trying to reconcile a savage bronze age God with a modern people. You have to do some real mental gymnatistics, and of course, if you are too lazy to do that, just say the person who questions it "doesn't understand" when he opines that a god that demands the murder of children cannot be called "good" in any sense of the word.

 

[JoeB131]

Joe, I think you're a shithead. God didn't ask him to kill his daughter. God didn't reward him for killing his daughter.

In fact, I'd say this reflects a lack of faith on Jephthah's part. The context shows that God was already going to give the victory to the Israelites, before Jephthah's promise. Yet, Jephthah still tried to buy God's blessing (which isn't for sale in the first place) by offering a member of his household as a sacrifice.

God wasn't going to change his plans for Israel based on the idiocy of a bastard.

But yet that God made that bastard Judge of all Israel, and later on, he would go on to slaughter 42,000 members of the tribe of Epharam (A tribe of Israel.)

 

[Ariux]

But yet that God made that bastard Judge of all Israel, and later on, he would go on to slaughter 42,000 members of the tribe of Epharam (A tribe of Israel.)

God didn't appoint Jephthah as Israel's leader.

 

[JoeB131]

But yet that God made that bastard Judge of all Israel, and later on, he would go on to slaughter 42,000 members of the tribe of Epharam (A tribe of Israel.)

God didn't appoint Jephthah as Israel's leader.

No, he just gave him victories... and enjoyed himself some barbeque virgin.

The other white meat!

 

[Douger]

Catholic and education ?
Military and intelligence ?
murkin superiority ?

 

[Gadawg73]

This is typical of many Christians. They always claim when there is something in the Bible that does not go along with their set ideology it was because of a wrong interpretation.
And then when it is something that matches with their ideology 100% they claim there is only ONE interpretation of the Bible.
The Bible is the greatest book on earth but it was written and inspired BY MEN.
Always open to interpretation and the politics of the days when it was translated.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Joe, I think you're a shithead. God didn't ask him to kill his daughter. God didn't reward him for killing his daughter.

In fact, I'd say this reflects a lack of faith on Jephthah's part. The context shows that God was already going to give the victory to the Israelites, before Jephthah's promise. Yet, Jephthah still tried to buy God's blessing (which isn't for sale in the first place) by offering a member of his household as a sacrifice.

God wasn't going to change his plans for Israel based on the idiocy of a bastard.

Ariux is right on the money. Jephthah offering a sacrifice goes back to his origins in Syria.
God never asked for such an action. Nothing implies that God gave him spiritual knowledge or wisdom or that God condoned such sacrifices. What God did give Jephthah was a special measure of valor to defeat the Ammonites.
For a list of offerings condoned by God, read Leviticus. Had you read that first, you would have had your answer.

If you voted for Obama, does that mean you also approved of him having a list of people he wants to kill?

 

[Avatar4321]

Nope. God didnt demand anything. A fool made a foolish vow and rather than repent from his vow, carried it out.

 

[The Irish Ram]

This is typical of many Christians. They always claim when there is something in the Bible that does not go along with their set ideology it was because of a wrong interpretation.
And then when it is something that matches with their ideology 100% they claim there is only ONE interpretation of the Bible.
The Bible is the greatest book on earth but it was written and inspired BY MEN.
Always open to interpretation and the politics of the days when it was translated.

Nope. Bible was penned by man, inspired by God, overseen by the Holy Spirit, and is not to be interpreted, added to or taken away from.
Christian's set ideology is the Bible.

 

[Steelplate]

This is typical of many Christians. They always claim when there is something in the Bible that does not go along with their set ideology it was because of a wrong interpretation.
And then when it is something that matches with their ideology 100% they claim there is only ONE interpretation of the Bible.
The Bible is the greatest book on earth but it was written and inspired BY MEN.
Always open to interpretation and the politics of the days when it was translated.

Nope. Bible was penned by man, inspired by God, overseen by the Holy Spirit, and is not to be interpreted, added to or taken away from.
Christian's set ideology is the Bible.

ummm...a Fundamentalist Christian, that is.

 

[JoeB131]

Joe, I think you're a shithead. God didn't ask him to kill his daughter. God didn't reward him for killing his daughter.

In fact, I'd say this reflects a lack of faith on Jephthah's part. The context shows that God was already going to give the victory to the Israelites, before Jephthah's promise. Yet, Jephthah still tried to buy God's blessing (which isn't for sale in the first place) by offering a member of his household as a sacrifice.

God wasn't going to change his plans for Israel based on the idiocy of a bastard.

Ariux is right on the money. Jephthah offering a sacrifice goes back to his origins in Syria.
God never asked for such an action. Nothing implies that God gave him spiritual knowledge or wisdom or that God condoned such sacrifices. What God did give Jephthah was a special measure of valor to defeat the Ammonites.
For a list of offerings condoned by God, read Leviticus. Had you read that first, you would have had your answer.

If you voted for Obama, does that mean you also approved of him having a list of people he wants to kill?

Actually, I voted for McCain. Might have voted for the Republican this time if the GOP hadn't been hijacked by the Latter Day Saints Cult.

To the point, where do you get the whole "Jephthah was from Syria" bit?

Read the actual verse...

11:29 Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon.
11:30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,
11:31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.


In short, the spirit of the Lord came upon Jephy before he ever thought of sacrificing something.

Now I cut Jephy some slack. Maybe he thought the first thing he was going to encounter was a sheep or a cow, which God considered "pleasing" sacrifices. But God knows all and sees all. He knew he was going to get him some Virgin.

 

[JoeB131]

Nope. God didnt demand anything. A fool made a foolish vow and rather than repent from his vow, carried it out.

Or he was too scared to repent.

He gave this girl a whole month for God to think it over and let him repent. He didn't.

(Again, probably because he doesn't actually exist!)

Then again, why didn't he order Private Ehud Snuffy to ride ahead and make sure that when General Jephy got back, the first thing he met was an appropriate sacrifice....

 

[Steelplate]

Nope. God didnt demand anything. A fool made a foolish vow and rather than repent from his vow, carried it out.

Or he was too scared to repent.

He gave this girl a whole month for God to think it over and let him repent. He didn't.

(Again, probably because he doesn't actually exist!)

Then again, why didn't he order Private Ehud Snuffy to ride ahead and make sure that when General Jephy got back, the first thing he met was an appropriate sacrifice....

Joe, just out of curiosity...do you believe in anything at the spiritual level? Not judging....just asking.

 

[JoeB131]

Nope. God didnt demand anything. A fool made a foolish vow and rather than repent from his vow, carried it out.

Or he was too scared to repent.

He gave this girl a whole month for God to think it over and let him repent. He didn't.

(Again, probably because he doesn't actually exist!)

Then again, why didn't he order Private Ehud Snuffy to ride ahead and make sure that when General Jephy got back, the first thing he met was an appropriate sacrifice....

Joe, just out of curiosity...do you believe in anything at the spiritual level? Not judging....just asking.

What I believe is that there is a purpose to the universe. That things happen for a reason, that everything in the world works together and the world simply is too interconnected to be random. And I think if the purpose of the universe cares about what we do, it's that we try to be the best people we can be.

I can't believe that it would care what church we went to or how often we jerk off.

 

[Steelplate]

Or he was too scared to repent.

He gave this girl a whole month for God to think it over and let him repent. He didn't.

(Again, probably because he doesn't actually exist!)

Then again, why didn't he order Private Ehud Snuffy to ride ahead and make sure that when General Jephy got back, the first thing he met was an appropriate sacrifice....

Joe, just out of curiosity...do you believe in anything at the spiritual level? Not judging....just asking.

What I believe is that there is a purpose to the universe. That things happen for a reason, that everything in the world works together and the world simply is too interconnected to be random. And I think if the purpose of the universe cares about what we do, it's that we try to be the best people we can be.

I can't believe that it would care what church we went to or how often we jerk off.

Thanks....Do you believe there is a creator? a God? ....perhaps not THE God....in the traditional sense, but a God nonetheless?

The reason I ask is this...one of the things that befuddles me with my faith is this....religion is oft times cultural and geographical....if you were born into a Christian Culture....more often than not, you will be a Christian....same with Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc.... Anyway...what bothers me about organized religion is that many of them are exclusive...."if you don't believe the way we do, you're wrong".... I can't help but think that God is bigger than that...I believe that God loves us all and all the separation and animosity is OUR flawed nature....of course, this flies in the face of my Christian faith...So I sometimes wonder(and quite frankly fear) what's going to greet me in the afterlife....I hope God understands how much I struggle with this....

 

[hortysir]

Nope. God didnt demand anything. A fool made a foolish vow and rather than repent from his vow, carried it out.

Or he was too scared to repent.

He gave this girl a whole month for God to think it over and let him repent. He didn't.

(Again, probably because he doesn't actually exist!)

Then again, why didn't he order Private Ehud Snuffy to ride ahead and make sure that when General Jephy got back, the first thing he met was an appropriate sacrifice....

For someone that doesn't believe, you sure give God the reigns for a lot of our day-to-day.

 

[JoeB131]

Thanks....Do you believe there is a creator? a God? ....perhaps not THE God....in the traditional sense, but a God nonetheless?

The reason I ask is this...one of the things that befuddles me with my faith is this....religion is oft times cultural and geographical....if you were born into a Christian Culture....more often than not, you will be a Christian....same with Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc.... Anyway...what bothers me about organized religion is that many of them are exclusive...."if you don't believe the way we do, you're wrong".... I can't help but think that God is bigger than that...I believe that God loves us all and all the separation and animosity is OUR flawed nature....of course, this flies in the face of my Christian faith...So I sometimes wonder(and quite frankly fear) what's going to greet me in the afterlife....I hope God understands how much I struggle with this....

Again, I think there is a purpose. Not the traditional guy with a beard sitting on a throne, but perhaps a higher intelligence that is beyond our understanding and by defintion would need to be.

All religions are man's attempts to understand it, and that's fine, until they get to the point where they just insist their view is true and don't you dare have a contrary opinion. And then you get the outright hucksters taking advantage of people like Joseph Smith or L. Ron Hubbard.