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And only pathetic arrogant hacks try to trade on their past in service they did their level best to damage......
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John Kerry: Unfit for Service
- Thread starter daveman
- Start date
And only pathetic arrogant hacks try to trade on their past in service they did their level best to damage......
They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.All lies.
3 million Vietnamese died in the war.
We dropped more bombs on Vietnam than we did on Germany and Japan combined.
It's pretty much not just that we did bad things, but we did stupid thing, such as crowding all the Vietnamese rural population into prison camps called Hamlets...
Now, maybe, just maybe you guys can get away with rehashing Vietnam during Kerry's confirmation hearing... but I don't think people are in the mood for that shit.
Only pathetic figures attack the military service of decorated war heroes
And only pathetic arrogant hacks try to trade on their past in service they did their level best to damage......
That's pretty dumb - even for you.
So the Army investigated itself and found the Army did nothing wrong.
Really?
In related news, Foxes investigated recent raids on the henhouse, and found no irregularities. Two more hens were reported missing.
Yes, Joe, we know you're incapable of believing anything that doesn't conclude that America is the source of all evil in the world.
Oh, no, I think we are no more or no less evil than any other people in the world, and if the Vietnamese occuppied half of America, they'd do the same shit. It's human nature. It's why we need laws and morals and standards, or we are just monkeys braining each other for a bit of meat.
I find it amusing that Conservatives like yourself who don't trust the government on much of anything will take the Army's word that there were no attrocities after it investigated itself, though.
daveman
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #66
He's dead on target.They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.All lies.
3 million Vietnamese died in the war.
We dropped more bombs on Vietnam than we did on Germany and Japan combined.
It's pretty much not just that we did bad things, but we did stupid thing, such as crowding all the Vietnamese rural population into prison camps called Hamlets...
Now, maybe, just maybe you guys can get away with rehashing Vietnam during Kerry's confirmation hearing... but I don't think people are in the mood for that shit.
Only pathetic figures attack the military service of decorated war heroes
And only pathetic arrogant hacks try to trade on their past in service they did their level best to damage......
That's pretty dumb - even for you.
Kerry renounced his service with the symbolic medal-throwing...and then "reported for duty":
[
He's dead on target.
Kerry renounced his service with the symbolic medal-throwing...and then "reported for duty":
]
Not endorsing what Kerry did, because a lot of it was wrong...
But maybe we need to get to the point where we realize that both the men who fought in Vietnam and the men who protested against it were both standing on principle... and get over ourselves.
Nations make mistakes, and it often falls to the people to correct them. Vietnam was probably the biggest mistake we ever made as a nation. Both parties deserve a lot of the blame for it.
But frankly, the whole thing was a lot worse on teh poor Vietnamese.
Navy Inspector General report on medals
In September 2004, Vice Admiral Ronald A. Route, the Navy Inspector General, completed a review of Kerry's combat medals, initiated at the request of Judicial Watch. In a memo to the Secretary of the Navy, Gordon England, Route stated:[79]
“ Our examination found that existing documentation regarding the Silver Star, Bronze Star and Purple Heart medals indicates the awards approval process was properly followed. In particular, the senior officers who awarded the medals were properly delegated authority to do so. In addition, we found that they correctly followed the procedures in place at the time for approving these awards
Conducting any additional review regarding events that took place over 30 years ago would not be productive. The passage of time would make reconstruction of the facts and circumstances unreliable, and would not allow the information gathered to be considered in the context of the time in which the events took place.
Our review also considered the fact that Senator Kerry's post-active duty activities were public and that military and civilian officials were aware of his actions at the time. For these reasons, I have determined that Senator Kerry's awards were properly approved and will take no further action in this matter.
In September 2004, Vice Admiral Ronald A. Route, the Navy Inspector General, completed a review of Kerry's combat medals, initiated at the request of Judicial Watch. In a memo to the Secretary of the Navy, Gordon England, Route stated:[79]
“ Our examination found that existing documentation regarding the Silver Star, Bronze Star and Purple Heart medals indicates the awards approval process was properly followed. In particular, the senior officers who awarded the medals were properly delegated authority to do so. In addition, we found that they correctly followed the procedures in place at the time for approving these awards
Conducting any additional review regarding events that took place over 30 years ago would not be productive. The passage of time would make reconstruction of the facts and circumstances unreliable, and would not allow the information gathered to be considered in the context of the time in which the events took place.
Our review also considered the fact that Senator Kerry's post-active duty activities were public and that military and civilian officials were aware of his actions at the time. For these reasons, I have determined that Senator Kerry's awards were properly approved and will take no further action in this matter.
daveman
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #69
And you can't see the irony in you trusting that same untrustworthy government with your healthcare and all your life decisions.So the Army investigated itself and found the Army did nothing wrong.
Really?
In related news, Foxes investigated recent raids on the henhouse, and found no irregularities. Two more hens were reported missing.
Yes, Joe, we know you're incapable of believing anything that doesn't conclude that America is the source of all evil in the world.
Oh, no, I think we are no more or no less evil than any other people in the world, and if the Vietnamese occuppied half of America, they'd do the same shit. It's human nature. It's why we need laws and morals and standards, or we are just monkeys braining each other for a bit of meat.
I find it amusing that Conservatives like yourself who don't trust the government on much of anything will take the Army's word that there were no attrocities after it investigated itself, though.
daveman
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #70
If you have to lie to support your principles, your principles aren't worth supporting.[
He's dead on target.
Kerry renounced his service with the symbolic medal-throwing...and then "reported for duty":
]
Not endorsing what Kerry did, because a lot of it was wrong...
But maybe we need to get to the point where we realize that both the men who fought in Vietnam and the men who protested against it were both standing on principle... and get over ourselves.
Nations make mistakes, and it often falls to the people to correct them. Vietnam was probably the biggest mistake we ever made as a nation. Both parties deserve a lot of the blame for it.
But frankly, the whole thing was a lot worse on teh poor Vietnamese.
daveman
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #71
Document release
Kerry has made his Vietnam journals and diaries available to his biographer, historian Douglas Brinkley, but has not made them otherwise publicly available. In declining to make the materials available to the Washington Post in 2004, the Kerry campaign cited an exclusivity agreement with Brinkley.[71] However, Brinkley subsequently told the paper that he interpreted the agreement as requiring only that quotations from the materials cite his book.[72]
During the 2004 campaign, Kerry released hundreds of documents related to his military service, including his reserve and discharge documents.[55]
The conservative organization Judicial Watch filed a request for Kerry's records with the Navy under the Freedom of Information Act. The Navy provided Judicial Watch with many of Kerry's service records, including those concerning the medals he received, while withholding his personnel records that were exempt from disclosure under the law (but noting that Kerry's website included documents subject to the exemption).[73]
Kerry was criticized by SBVT and some media entities for not authorizing independent public access to his privacy protected service records.[74] After the election, on May 20, 2005, he did sign a Standard Form 180 allowing full release of all his military service records,[75] including his reserve and discharge records, as well as his medical records, to the Associated Press, the Boston Globe, and the Los Angeles Times. Kerry refused a request from the New York Sun to permit the Sun's reporters to inspect the records.[76] The Boston Globe reported that the material largely duplicated what Kerry had released during the campaign, and included no "substantive new material".[77]
Asked why he had declined to sign the release earlier, Kerry responded:
The call for me to sign a 180 form came from the same partisan operatives who were lying about my record on a daily basis on the Web and in the right-wing media. Even though the media was discrediting them, they continued to lie. I felt strongly that we shouldn't kowtow to them and their attempts to drag their lies out
Hey, stupid motherfucker:Navy Inspector General report on medals
In September 2004, Vice Admiral Ronald A. Route, the Navy Inspector General, completed a review of Kerry's combat medals, initiated at the request of Judicial Watch. In a memo to the Secretary of the Navy, Gordon England, Route stated:[79]
Our examination found that existing documentation regarding the Silver Star, Bronze Star and Purple Heart medals indicates the awards approval process was properly followed. In particular, the senior officers who awarded the medals were properly delegated authority to do so. In addition, we found that they correctly followed the procedures in place at the time for approving these awards
Conducting any additional review regarding events that took place over 30 years ago would not be productive. The passage of time would make reconstruction of the facts and circumstances unreliable, and would not allow the information gathered to be considered in the context of the time in which the events took place.
Our review also considered the fact that Senator Kerry's post-active duty activities were public and that military and civilian officials were aware of his actions at the time. For these reasons, I have determined that Senator Kerry's awards were properly approved and will take no further action in this matter.
I don't care about the medals. That's just noise. The real issues are his lying to Congress and his treason.
But you can't refute those, so you keep stupidly yapping about the medals.
Verifying the testimony
The organizers had two primary concerns when considering the testimony they would use. They wanted testimony that wouldn't allow the scapegoating of individuals when they were attempting to show what was being done in Vietnam was due to policy, not decisions by individual GIs. They also wanted the testimony to be accurate, and double and sometimes triple confirmed by others in the same units. Specific sets of questions were drafted by experienced combat vets to help verify that participants were not fabricating their stories or faking their knowledge, and that only the strongest testimony was used.[10][19]
According to Army reports compiled by the Criminal Investigation Command (CID) and later reported by the Village Voice following declassification, the Army found the allegations made by 46 veterans at the hearings to merit further inquiry. As of March 1972, the CID reported successfully locating 36 of the people who had testified, 31 of whom submitted to interviews.[20]
One WSI participant, Jamie Henry, had reported the massacre he described at the hearings [21] to the Army, which investigated and subsequently confirmed his story. However, the details of the investigation were not made public until 2006, when the Los Angeles Times published the declassified information
Winter Soldier Investigation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The organizers had two primary concerns when considering the testimony they would use. They wanted testimony that wouldn't allow the scapegoating of individuals when they were attempting to show what was being done in Vietnam was due to policy, not decisions by individual GIs. They also wanted the testimony to be accurate, and double and sometimes triple confirmed by others in the same units. Specific sets of questions were drafted by experienced combat vets to help verify that participants were not fabricating their stories or faking their knowledge, and that only the strongest testimony was used.[10][19]
According to Army reports compiled by the Criminal Investigation Command (CID) and later reported by the Village Voice following declassification, the Army found the allegations made by 46 veterans at the hearings to merit further inquiry. As of March 1972, the CID reported successfully locating 36 of the people who had testified, 31 of whom submitted to interviews.[20]
One WSI participant, Jamie Henry, had reported the massacre he described at the hearings [21] to the Army, which investigated and subsequently confirmed his story. However, the details of the investigation were not made public until 2006, when the Los Angeles Times published the declassified information
Winter Soldier Investigation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Truthseeker420
Gold Member
[More than 30 years after the Winter Soldier Investigation, during the 2004 presidential campaign in which former VVAW spokesman John Kerry was a candidate, the WSI was again in the news. Steve Pitkin, a participant at the investigation in 1971, now made statements in an affidavit claiming that he was not originally planning to testify at the WSI. He now claims he was pressured by Kerry and others into testifying about rape, brutality, atrocities and racism. Pitkin repeated these claims at an anti-Kerry political rally just weeks before the presidential election. On film footage of the WSI panel, Pitkin criticized the press for its coverage of the war, and detailed what he considered poor training for combat in Vietnam, and low morale he claimed to have witnessed while there. Although he introduced himself by saying, "I'll testify about the beating of civilians and enemy personnel, destruction of villages, indiscriminate use of artillery, the general racism and the attitude of the American GI toward the Vietnamese," his actual testimony contained no such statements.
Upon hearing of these statements by Pitkin, another participant named Scott Camil filed his own affidavit refuting Pitkin's statements. Pitkin has subsequently admitted his recollections were flawed, and has re-issued a second affidavit now reflecting a different date of discharge from the Army, different people traveling with him to the Winter Soldier event, and different circumstances under which he joined the VVAW.[31][32]
Fritz Efaw, a Chapter Representative of VVAW, stated: "The claims that the WSI hearings contained falsified testimony from men who were not veterans is an old one, and it's definitely false. The testimony was startling even at the time it took place: startling to the general public, startling to the military and the Nixon administration, and startling to those who participated because each of them knew a piece of the story, but the hearings brought a great many of them together for the first time and provided a venue in which they could be heard for the first time. It's hardly surprising that those on the other side would set out almost immediately to discredit them."
The U.S. participation in the Vietnam War was the source of much deeply divided sentiment among Americans. The Winter Soldier Investigation produced a conglomerate of testimony resulting in the implication and indictment of American leadership in criminal conduct, and thereby further drove a wedge between proponents and opponents of the war./QUOTE]
Winter Soldier Investigation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Document release
Kerry has made his Vietnam journals and diaries available to his biographer, historian Douglas Brinkley, but has not made them otherwise publicly available. In declining to make the materials available to the Washington Post in 2004, the Kerry campaign cited an exclusivity agreement with Brinkley.[71] However, Brinkley subsequently told the paper that he interpreted the agreement as requiring only that quotations from the materials cite his book.[72]
During the 2004 campaign, Kerry released hundreds of documents related to his military service, including his reserve and discharge documents.[55]
The conservative organization Judicial Watch filed a request for Kerry's records with the Navy under the Freedom of Information Act. The Navy provided Judicial Watch with many of Kerry's service records, including those concerning the medals he received, while withholding his personnel records that were exempt from disclosure under the law (but noting that Kerry's website included documents subject to the exemption).[73]
Kerry was criticized by SBVT and some media entities for not authorizing independent public access to his privacy protected service records.[74] After the election, on May 20, 2005, he did sign a Standard Form 180 allowing full release of all his military service records,[75] including his reserve and discharge records, as well as his medical records, to the Associated Press, the Boston Globe, and the Los Angeles Times. Kerry refused a request from the New York Sun to permit the Sun's reporters to inspect the records.[76] The Boston Globe reported that the material largely duplicated what Kerry had released during the campaign, and included no "substantive new material".[77]
Asked why he had declined to sign the release earlier, Kerry responded:
The call for me to sign a 180 form came from the same partisan operatives who were lying about my record on a daily basis on the Web and in the right-wing media. Even though the media was discrediting them, they continued to lie. I felt strongly that we shouldn't kowtow to them and their attempts to drag their lies out
Kerry has made his Vietnam journals and diaries available to his biographer, historian Douglas Brinkley, but has not made them otherwise publicly available. In declining to make the materials available to the Washington Post in 2004, the Kerry campaign cited an exclusivity agreement with Brinkley.[71] However, Brinkley subsequently told the paper that he interpreted the agreement as requiring only that quotations from the materials cite his book.[72]
During the 2004 campaign, Kerry released hundreds of documents related to his military service, including his reserve and discharge documents.[55]
The conservative organization Judicial Watch filed a request for Kerry's records with the Navy under the Freedom of Information Act. The Navy provided Judicial Watch with many of Kerry's service records, including those concerning the medals he received, while withholding his personnel records that were exempt from disclosure under the law (but noting that Kerry's website included documents subject to the exemption).[73]
Kerry was criticized by SBVT and some media entities for not authorizing independent public access to his privacy protected service records.[74] After the election, on May 20, 2005, he did sign a Standard Form 180 allowing full release of all his military service records,[75] including his reserve and discharge records, as well as his medical records, to the Associated Press, the Boston Globe, and the Los Angeles Times. Kerry refused a request from the New York Sun to permit the Sun's reporters to inspect the records.[76] The Boston Globe reported that the material largely duplicated what Kerry had released during the campaign, and included no "substantive new material".[77]
Asked why he had declined to sign the release earlier, Kerry responded:
The call for me to sign a 180 form came from the same partisan operatives who were lying about my record on a daily basis on the Web and in the right-wing media. Even though the media was discrediting them, they continued to lie. I felt strongly that we shouldn't kowtow to them and their attempts to drag their lies out
daveman
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #77
Did the Army find any truth to Kerry's statement that "they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies...razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks"?Verifying the testimony
The organizers had two primary concerns when considering the testimony they would use. They wanted testimony that wouldn't allow the scapegoating of individuals when they were attempting to show what was being done in Vietnam was due to policy, not decisions by individual GIs. They also wanted the testimony to be accurate, and double and sometimes triple confirmed by others in the same units. Specific sets of questions were drafted by experienced combat vets to help verify that participants were not fabricating their stories or faking their knowledge, and that only the strongest testimony was used.[10][19]
According to Army reports compiled by the Criminal Investigation Command (CID) and later reported by the Village Voice following declassification, the Army found the allegations made by 46 veterans at the hearings to merit further inquiry. As of March 1972, the CID reported successfully locating 36 of the people who had testified, 31 of whom submitted to interviews.[20]
One WSI participant, Jamie Henry, had reported the massacre he described at the hearings [21] to the Army, which investigated and subsequently confirmed his story. However, the details of the investigation were not made public until 2006, when the Los Angeles Times published the declassified information
Winter Soldier Investigation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
No?
Then Kerry lied, didn't he?
John Kerry has never seen a weapons system that he liked.
Leadership
During his Senate career, Kerry has sponsored or cosponsored dozens of bills. Some of his notable bills have addressed small business concerns, education, terrorism, veterans' and Vietnam War POW/MIA issues, marine resource protection and other topics. Of those bills with his sponsorship, as of December 2004, 11 have been signed into law.
Kerry chaired the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs from 1991 to 1993. The committee's report, which Kerry endorsed, stated there was "no compelling evidence that proves that any American remains alive in captivity in Southeast Asia."[80] In 1994 the Senate passed a resolution, sponsored by Kerry and fellow Vietnam veteran John McCain, that called for an end to the existing trade embargo against Vietnam; it was intended to pave the way for normalization.[81] In 1995, President Bill Clinton normalized diplomatic relations with the country of Vietnam.[82] His long-time senior Senate staff includes Chief of Staff David "Mac" McKean and Legislative Director George Abar.
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