Jews and Political Correctness

[The Rabbi]

Wanting your capital city to be undivided. It's those unreasonable Jews again. Every other country would be fine dividing their capital with an enemy sworn to kill them to the last man, woman, and child.

 

[GHook93]

Accusations of anti-Semitism are used almost exclusively on USMB in an attempt to stifle criticism of Israel. Westerners who support Israel do so for a variety of reasons; my guess is that many do because of a pervading sense of collective guilt over the West's failure to prevent the Holocaust. They're wary of taking positions that could be seen as "anti-Semitic" in the wake of approximately 2,000 years of Jews being persecuted by Europeans. Christians who are more religious may support Israel because they see its existence as a necessary part of their fatuous eschatological schemes. In light of this, it's sort of ironic that Israel's detractors are accused of bigotry while many of its supporters see Jews as nothing more than tools for bringing about the Second Coming. Basically, my perception is that "anti-Semite" is a catch-all accusation directed at critics of Israel by those who find themselves unable or unwilling to defend their support of the country in an honest discussion. In this sense, it's a lot like America's pejorative use of "socialist" and "fascist" to describe those whose political beliefs are seen as too liberal or too conservative, respectively.

BULLSHIT Kalam, one can critize Israel, because like all countries she is far from perfect, but for the vast majoirty of critics don't leave their bias at the door. The vast majority are fueled by antisemitism

First, I would like to point on that Saladin is the creator of this thread. I find it ironic that someone with a such a deep hatred of everything Jewish would be puzzled by how someone could label him an antisemite or his rhetoric.

But I digress. The reason most Israel bashers get labeled antisemites is because:
(1) They usually just single out Israel: Sudan, Somolia, Russia, China, South Africa, Myammar, Zimbawae Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Yemen, Libya, Uzbekistan, Nigeria, the Congo, the Ivory Coast, Mexico, Honduras, Colombia, Venezuela all have amazing human right issues, yet the antisemites usually focus entirely on Israel. Most of these countries are 1000x worse that Israel on any given day, but the focus remains on Israel. Kalam still won't recognize a tradegy in Sudan.

(2) One-sided Critics: Kalam you are overly guilty of this. People will cry foul on anything Israel does, but ignore anything the opposition does (note: it does work both ways). In fact they quietly endorse it.

(3) Many critics of Israel start to fall into classic antisemitism: Jews seek to control the world. The Jews have too much power in politics, banking and the media. AIPAC is so powerful that they are in Obama's fab-five!

(4) Many times critics of Israel go to the extreme: Call them Apartheid system. Call them canibals. Say they harvest Palestinians organs.

(5) Most Israel critics fail to recognize any positive steps Israel makes: Offering 95-98% of the land the Palestinians requested in the Camp David Accords. Disengaging from Gaza. The 10 month residential building freeze. Letting the Muslim Waqf (Muslim Authorities) control the Temple Mount. Any steps Israel makes gets pushed aside.

(6) Usually most critics of Israel condemn Jews for the acts of one or a few Jews: Heck I know some people that were scammed by Maddof and I hope Maddof rots in hell someday. But I find it very eye-opening that many of the Israel bashers here (yep I am talking to you Shogun) try to hold all the Jews guilt for Maddof's crimes, when Jews were his biggest victims. It's not any different than condemning every Muslim for the acts of Hasan (a person Kalam has still not condemned).

(7) Israel haters usually make unreasonable demands:
Kalam has personally stated that Israel should have just kept absorbing the missile attacks. Basically saying "thank you may I have another." Jew haters say Israeli should have done nothing when Hezbollah made a cross border attack. Heck back during the six day war the Jew haters said the Jews should have done nothing in the face of annihalition. They make unreasonable demands, so they can condemn them more for reacting. Its so hypocritical, it can only be backed by antisemitic beliefs.

(8) Israel haters are usually ones that believe the crazy conspiracy theories on the Jews:
Sunni is one the biggest antisemites on this board. He believes the holocaust didn't happen. Kalam is a closet 9/11 Mosad theorist. Shogun in out of the closet 9/11 Mosad did it theorist. I can guarantee that Saladin definitely thinks the Jews were behind 9/11 and probably doesn't believe in the holocaust.

There can be non-antisemitic critics of Israeli, but there is definitely a pattern of the haters!

 

[Polk]

Yes I agree, Saladin's post is a little hard to figure out.

But the Rabbi's is very simple.

Any criticism of Israel puts you in the anti-semitic camp

As much as Rabbi and I disagree, I've got to come to his defense here. His post didn't make that argument.

 

[Polk]

Accusations of anti-Semitism are used almost exclusively on USMB in an attempt to stifle criticism of Israel. Westerners who support Israel do so for a variety of reasons; my guess is that many do because of a pervading sense of collective guilt over the West's failure to prevent the Holocaust. They're wary of taking positions that could be seen as "anti-Semitic" in the wake of approximately 2,000 years of Jews being persecuted by Europeans. Christians who are more religious may support Israel because they see its existence as a necessary part of their fatuous eschatological schemes. In light of this, it's sort of ironic that Israel's detractors are accused of bigotry while many of its supporters see Jews as nothing more than tools for bringing about the Second Coming. Basically, my perception is that "anti-Semite" is a catch-all accusation directed at critics of Israel by those who find themselves unable or unwilling to defend their support of the country in an honest discussion. In this sense, it's a lot like America's pejorative use of "socialist" and "fascist" to describe those whose political beliefs are seen as too liberal or too conservative, respectively.

BULLSHIT Kalam, one can critize Israel, because like all countries she is far from perfect, but for the vast majoirty of critics don't leave their bias at the door. The vast majority are fueled by antisemitism

First, I would like to point on that Saladin is the creator of this thread. I find it ironic that someone with a such a deep hatred of everything Jewish would be puzzled by how someone could label him an antisemite or his rhetoric.

But I digress. The reason most Israel bashers get labeled antisemites is because:
(1) They usually just single out Israel: Sudan, Somolia, Russia, China, South Africa, Myammar, Zimbawae Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Yemen, Libya, Uzbekistan, Nigeria, the Congo, the Ivory Coast, Mexico, Honduras, Colombia, Venezuela all have amazing human right issues, yet the antisemites usually focus entirely on Israel. Most of these countries are 1000x worse that Israel on any given day, but the focus remains on Israel. Kalam still won't recognize a tradegy in Sudan.

(2) One-sided Critics: Kalam you are overly guilty of this. People will cry foul on anything Israel does, but ignore anything the opposition does (note: it does work both ways). In fact they quietly endorse it.

(3) Many critics of Israel start to fall into classic antisemitism: Jews seek to control the world. The Jews have too much power in politics, banking and the media. AIPAC is so powerful that they are in Obama's fab-five!

(4) Many times critics of Israel go to the extreme: Call them Apartheid system. Call them canibals. Say they harvest Palestinians organs.

(5) Most Israel critics fail to recognize any positive steps Israel makes: Offering 95-98% of the land the Palestinians requested in the Camp David Accords. Disengaging from Gaza. The 10 month residential building freeze. Letting the Muslim Waqf (Muslim Authorities) control the Temple Mount. Any steps Israel makes gets pushed aside.

(6) Usually most critics of Israel condemn Jews for the acts of one or a few Jews: Heck I know some people that were scammed by Maddof and I hope Maddof rots in hell someday. But I find it very eye-opening that many of the Israel bashers here (yep I am talking to you Shogun) try to hold all the Jews guilt for Maddof's crimes, when Jews were his biggest victims. It's not any different than condemning every Muslim for the acts of Hasan (a person Kalam has still not condemned).

(7) Israel haters usually make unreasonable demands:
Kalam has personally stated that Israel should have just kept absorbing the missile attacks. Basically saying "thank you may I have another." Jew haters say Israeli should have done nothing when Hezbollah made a cross border attack. Heck back during the six day war the Jew haters said the Jews should have done nothing in the face of annihalition. They make unreasonable demands, so they can condemn them more for reacting. Its so hypocritical, it can only be backed by antisemitic beliefs.

(8) Israel haters are usually ones that believe the crazy conspiracy theories on the Jews:
Sunni is one the biggest antisemites on this board. He believes the holocaust didn't happen. Kalam is a closet 9/11 Mosad theorist. Shogun in out of the closet 9/11 Mosad did it theorist. I can guarantee that Saladin definitely thinks the Jews were behind 9/11 and probably doesn't believe in the holocaust.

There can be non-antisemitic critics of Israeli, but there is definitely a pattern of the haters!

While I agree with your general argument, I think there are so flaws too. To the same degree anti-Semite hide by "oh, we're just criticizing Israel, not all Jews", often defenders of Israel throw accusations of anti-Semitism to stop any real discussion. I would specifically note your point about classic anti-Semitism. It is possible to believe that lobbyists for Israeli interests have a disproportional voice in the American political dialogue without being an anti-Semite. Just look at how respected researchers like John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt were muddied for their comments.

 

[Diuretic]

Anti-Jew - ultra-rightists who hold a deep-seated, particularly European historical prejudice which co-opted Christianity in order to protect the vested economic interests of the aristocracy against the emergent merchant classes in late feudalism. Perpetrators and perpetuators of Der Dolchstoß mythology.

Anti-Jew - ultra-leftists who will automatically support "oppressed" peoples without bothering to think through the issues first.

Interesting observation, I never considered it that way.
Where in that terminology do terrorists fit?
I find it hard to accept that they are all ultra-leftists; the group seems large enough that they must have at least some diversity of opinion, except of course about the desirability of killing for the 'cause'

I would think terrorists can come from both extremes on the political spectrum. If they're after you, they're terrorists.

 

[Diuretic]

It depends.
If you think the policy is counter-productive to producing peace then you aren't anti-Jew. Misguided and misinformed, maybe. But it is a legitimate debate point.
If you think the policy is intended to subjugate the innocent Palestinians who have suffered oppression under the Israeli yoke then I'd say you need to try on a brown shirt for size.

Interesting ideas. And if I can say so they illustrate the difficulties in the debate. It's too easy for any of us who are not Israelis or Palestinians to sum it all up in a simplistic manner. I'm all over the place on it personally. I don't see how extending the settlements is going to be helpful to resolving the "Middle East issue" (whatever that might mean). But then I can see it as a bargaining chip. I think there's some validity to the argument that there is Israeli oppression but then Israelis are being blown up by Palestinian suicide bombers. Bit chicken and egg there. Anyway I'm right off point now.

Anti-Jew - ultra-rightists who hold a deep-seated, particularly European historical prejudice which co-opted Christianity in order to protect the vested economic interests of the aristocracy against the emergent merchant classes in late feudalism. Perpetrators and perpetuators of Der Dolchstoß mythology.

Anti-Jew - ultra-leftists who will automatically support "oppressed" peoples without bothering to think through the issues first.

Strange bedfellows indeed.

the flaw in your logic is that you assume there is an equivilent hatred of jews between ethnic equality-loving lefties and jew hating righties. The punchline being, of course, if jews were being treated in America like palis are in israel we lefties would be the FIRST to fight for jewish equality. Now, ask the usual stooge suspects if they have any interest in doing the same in israel. The irony of rationalized jewish hatred of non-jews in israel is the real joke of your observation.

I was thinking of the British Left between the two World Wars. They - the Left of the British Labour party - supported the idea of a Jewish homeland. Fast forward and the defacers of Jewish graves in Britain might be neo-Nazis or ultra-Leftists.

 

[Diuretic]

Those who made comments about the clarity of the OP should be embarrassed that their command of the English language is apparently inferior to that of a foreigner.

That's not unusual. Us native speakers weren't actually taught the language, we sort of absorbed it growing up

I had a foreigner correct me on the proper use of "me" and "I" and me is, sorry, I am, forever grateful to him

 

[Diuretic]

After having had the advantage of reading through the rest of the thread it seems to me that an anti-Semite wouldn't give a toss if Israel existed or not, he or she would still find some way of expressing a hatred of Jews simply because they are Jews.

I was baptised as a baby and raised in the Catholic Church. I don't ever remember actually being told that "the Jews murdered Christ" but it was implied and I remember the implication in my religious education classes. The other point I remember from religious education classes was that Christ's Jewishness was not really spoken of. His birth language of Aramaic was emphasised.

It seems to me that for peace could come to the Middle East, Benjamin Netanyahu and HAMAS could break bread together, but someone would still find a way of perpetrating this irrational hatred of Jews.

 

[Kalam]

If that's so then its a pretty poor strategy since it obviously fails.

I concur.

I have never seen as many out and out anti-semites and Jew-haters as on this board.

Your definition of "anti-Semite" must be fairly comprehensive.

Or they see Israel as the sole democracy in the region. And they see Israel as the sole country that actually has civil rights.

In the sense that America was a democracy with civil rights seventy years ago, yes. The entire region is, for the most part, a human rights disaster. Israel is no exception.

And they see Israel as the only country which has been a reliable ally of the U.S.

The crew of the Liberty begs to differ. Israel is a political liability and America's relationship with the oppressors has done more to damage its reputation and credibility in the Middle East than any other single alliance or corrupt policy. The Cold War is over and Israel has long outlived its usefulness to the United States. Time to cut the cord.

Your comments reveal more about you and your bias than anything else.

On the contrary, I was regretfully a supporter of Israel before I actually took the time to examine the circumstances surrounding the conflict. The recent Gaza massacre made me even more staunchly opposed to Israel. Incidentally, my change of heart concerning the oppressor-state had nothing to do with my religious convictions, though I can find ample justification for my support of the persecuted in scripture.

No one has any problem defending Israel on the merits. But people ought to have a problem when the debate becomes so one-sided that Israel is criticised for not being a country of saints. Or when facts are distorted and manipulated, which the media does often.

If defending my position required distorting facts, my friend, I wouldn't have taken it in the first place.

 

[Shogun]

Accusations of anti-Semitism are used almost exclusively on USMB in an attempt to stifle criticism of Israel. Westerners who support Israel do so for a variety of reasons; my guess is that many do because of a pervading sense of collective guilt over the West's failure to prevent the Holocaust.

Some however reserve the accusation of antisemitism for people like Shogun who froth at the mouth and spew racial epithets at every turn.
Sunni Man is, from my reading of his posts in other threads, a holocaust denier who skirts the edge but manages to retain a semblance of reason in many cases.
Kalam is opposed to Israel and supportive of Islamic causes in general, but he actively opposes what he calls heretical views of Islam that promote violence.

There is a reason only Shogun, of the three listed above, is on my ignore list and while it extends past his antisemitism that particular bit of idiocy only detracts from his posts. I realize I should not blame him, he probably started smoking marijuana before he was twelve, but I have no desire to try and use my efforts to help a hopeless case like him.

yea... hehehe.. there is a reason alright: because you are big, quivering pussy who can throw rocks but likes to cry to mommy when they come back at you.

Hell, who wants help from a cock stucker like you anyway, guy? Like I've said before, I'll go ahead and keep the joint to MY lips while you keep the salty dick on yours.







ps, when you pussy zionists finally get around to admitting that you would never support the same ethnic equality in israel that you enjoy here in the US let me know. Until then, roll em, smoke em and enjoy the zionist comedy show!

 

[Kalam]

First, I would like to point on that Saladin is the creator of this thread. I find it ironic that someone with a such a deep hatred of everything Jewish would be puzzled by how someone could label him an antisemite or his rhetoric.

I haven't seen Saladin express any sort of hatred for all Jews. As somebody who has experienced Israeli oppression directly, his perceptions of the conflict and surrounding issues carry more weight than any other poster's as far as I'm concerned.

Kalam still won't recognize a tradegy in Sudan.

There is a single standard; those who earn our ire simply do not live up to it. The Goldstone Report made it clear that Israel is willing to kill without discrimination. The Russian oppressors in Chechnya are the same way, as are the pseudo-Islamic oppressors in Sudan.

You will have to be more specific. What qualifies as a "barbarous act"? I will not condemn any attack by Muslims on the governments of oppressive countries such as Israel, Russia, and Sudan.

Define 'Oppress Innocents'

Unjust expulsion from homes (as in Sudan), aggressive warfare, and starting conflicts for religious reasons.

The government of Sudan provides support for militiamen in Darfur and, allegedly, for the Lord's Resistance Army. Pursuing racist policies and funding genocide are not appropriate courses of action for any government, Islamic or otherwise. I hope they're overthrown by the JEM.

I support resistance against government oppression in Israel, Sudan, Chechnya, and Xinjiang,

Yes. That's why I support armed resistance against the government of Sudan as well; I'm opposed to oppression regardless of its source.

What?

Kalam is a closet 9/11 Mosad theorist

It's asininities like this that make me want to ignore your posts.

 

[Kalam]

Accusations of anti-Semitism are used almost exclusively on USMB in an attempt to stifle criticism of Israel. Westerners who support Israel do so for a variety of reasons; my guess is that many do because of a pervading sense of collective guilt over the West's failure to prevent the Holocaust.

Some however reserve the accusation of antisemitism for people like Shogun who froth at the mouth and spew racial epithets at every turn.
Sunni Man is, from my reading of his posts in other threads, a holocaust denier who skirts the edge but manages to retain a semblance of reason in many cases.
Kalam is opposed to Israel and supportive of Islamic causes in general, but he actively opposes what he calls heretical views of Islam that promote violence.

There is a reason only Shogun, of the three listed above, is on my ignore list and while it extends past his antisemitism that particular bit of idiocy only detracts from his posts. I realize I should not blame him, he probably started smoking marijuana before he was twelve, but I have no desire to try and use my efforts to help a hopeless case like him.

Why the three of us?

 

[Shogun]

Interesting ideas. And if I can say so they illustrate the difficulties in the debate. It's too easy for any of us who are not Israelis or Palestinians to sum it all up in a simplistic manner. I'm all over the place on it personally. I don't see how extending the settlements is going to be helpful to resolving the "Middle East issue" (whatever that might mean). But then I can see it as a bargaining chip. I think there's some validity to the argument that there is Israeli oppression but then Israelis are being blown up by Palestinian suicide bombers. Bit chicken and egg there. Anyway I'm right off point now.

Anti-Jew - ultra-rightists who hold a deep-seated, particularly European historical prejudice which co-opted Christianity in order to protect the vested economic interests of the aristocracy against the emergent merchant classes in late feudalism. Perpetrators and perpetuators of Der Dolchstoß mythology.

Anti-Jew - ultra-leftists who will automatically support "oppressed" peoples without bothering to think through the issues first.

Strange bedfellows indeed.

the flaw in your logic is that you assume there is an equivilent hatred of jews between ethnic equality-loving lefties and jew hating righties. The punchline being, of course, if jews were being treated in America like palis are in israel we lefties would be the FIRST to fight for jewish equality. Now, ask the usual stooge suspects if they have any interest in doing the same in israel. The irony of rationalized jewish hatred of non-jews in israel is the real joke of your observation.

I was thinking of the British Left between the two World Wars. They - the Left of the British Labour party - supported the idea of a Jewish homeland. Fast forward and the defacers of Jewish graves in Britain might be neo-Nazis or ultra-Leftists.

I'm thinking specifically about both factions of what the stooges label antisemites here at USMB. It's pretty sad when the factor that drives jews to the right wing becomes the idea of ethnic equality in israel on par with that which they enjoy here in the west. lefties of my flavor get wrung through the typical scarlet A routine and are labeled every jewish reflexive accusation in the book.. all for supporting the kind of ethnic equality that they ironically supported blacks with during the civil rights era. Like I've said before: it's easy to act cavalier about ethnic equality when it's not ones own culture having to give up a firm grip.

 

[Diuretic]

the flaw in your logic is that you assume there is an equivilent hatred of jews between ethnic equality-loving lefties and jew hating righties. The punchline being, of course, if jews were being treated in America like palis are in israel we lefties would be the FIRST to fight for jewish equality. Now, ask the usual stooge suspects if they have any interest in doing the same in israel. The irony of rationalized jewish hatred of non-jews in israel is the real joke of your observation.

I was thinking of the British Left between the two World Wars. They - the Left of the British Labour party - supported the idea of a Jewish homeland. Fast forward and the defacers of Jewish graves in Britain might be neo-Nazis or ultra-Leftists.

I'm thinking specifically about both factions of what the stooges label antisemites here at USMB. It's pretty sad when the factor that drives jews to the right wing becomes the idea of ethnic equality in israel on par with that which they enjoy here in the west. lefties of my flavor get wrung through the typical scarlet A routine and are labeled every jewish reflexive accusation in the book.. all for supporting the kind of ethnic equality that they ironically supported blacks with during the civil rights era. Like I've said before: it's easy to act cavalier about ethnic equality when it's not ones own culture having to give up a firm grip.

On that last point, yes, it is. The further away I am the easier I find it to make a lofty pronouncement, the closer I get to an issue the more I can see the speckles that make it up and the more confused I am about it.

For me someone can be a critic of Israeli govt policy and not be anti-Jew. Given that Israel has a secular constitution I have to think that its government, even though it may contain members of religious parties, is acting in a secular manner when it devises policy. So the question then becomes, should it permit extended settlements in Palestinian territory? I don't see how, "no", makes anyone anti-Jew or anti-Israelli for that matter.

I'm distant from the issues in terms of geography and ethnicity, I can make a lofty pronouncement.

 

[Charles Stucker]

Why the three of us?

Because you are active posters who represent a broad perspective on the pro-Arabic/Islamic side. Shogun is a disgrace, you typically sound rather informed and Sunni Man is in the range between you two.
One might say you are reasonably PC, Sunni chooses to Ignore the PC (presumably to shock readers) and Shogun froths antisemitism in almost every post.

 

[Shogun]

Why the three of us?

Because you are active posters who represent a broad perspective on the pro-Arabic/Islamic side. Shogun is a disgrace, you typically sound rather informed and Sunni Man is in the range between you two.
One might say you are reasonably PC, Sunni chooses to Ignore the PC (presumably to shock readers) and Shogun froths antisemitism in almost every post.

You would think so, cock stucker. But, then again, we don't see anyone congratulating you on being anything less than the kind of sock puppet that zionists need to perpetuate their brand of racism so... Enjoy your corner with Rhodes Scholar, Ghook, and The Rabbi.


and.. try not to burn down any more mosques in the west bank if you don't mind.

 

[Bea39]

You would think so, cock stucker. But, then again, we don't see anyone congratulating you on being anything less than the kind of sock puppet that zionists need to perpetuate their brand of racism so... Enjoy your corner with Rhodes Scholar, Ghook, and The Rabbi.


and.. try not to burn down any more mosques in the west bank if you don't mind.

no family

That Zionists are successful, well-educated and prosperous is a source of anger for you, isn't it, loser? How is it flipping burgers at Burger King?

 

[Shogun]

You would think so, cock stucker. But, then again, we don't see anyone congratulating you on being anything less than the kind of sock puppet that zionists need to perpetuate their brand of racism so... Enjoy your corner with Rhodes Scholar, Ghook, and The Rabbi.


and.. try not to burn down any more mosques in the west bank if you don't mind.

deleted

That Zionists are successful, well-educated and prosperous is a source of anger for you, isn't it, loser? How is it flipping burgers at Burger King?

this is the second time today that I've seen you bring family into your posts. You might want to go find out what the few rules are around here before someone gets your ass banned. This is your only warning, ****. Test this. I DARE you. I'll have you crying foul before the day is over.

 

[Bea39]

this is the second time today that I've seen you bring family into your posts. You might want to go find out what the few rules are around here before someone gets your ass banned. This is your only warning, ****. Test this. I DARE you. I'll have you crying foul before the day is over.

If I get banned, I'll still have my company, of which I'm CEO.

Now, why don't you get back to flipping burgers?

 

[del]

this is the second time today that I've seen you bring family into your posts. You might want to go find out what the few rules are around here before someone gets your ass banned. This is your only warning, ****. Test this. I DARE you. I'll have you crying foul before the day is over.

If I get banned, I'll still have my company, of which I'm CEO.

Now, why don't you get back to flipping burgers?

how many papers do you deliver on an average day?