Jesus woulda been pissed off royally...

[manifold]

Call me crazy, but to me the term "choice" implies more than one option. You can say the flat-earth wackos are making a choice, but I doubt they see it that way. And similarly, until you, every athiest I've ever talked to only acknowledges one sensible conclusion (i.e. no choice in the matter).

 

[Shogun]

Call me crazy, but to me the term "choice" implies more than one option. You can say the flat-earth wackos are making a choice, but I doubt they see it that way. And similarly, until you, every athiest I've ever talked to only acknowledges one sensible conclusion (i.e. no choice in the matter).

well thats silly. You may not put as much emphasis on the same observations of data (or lack thereof) than I do. You may be more comfortable trading Faith for Facts. Flat earther wackos may not believe what science tells them but it's because of dogma rather than evidence. They still have made a choice. Even salvation for most flavours of christianity involve merely BELIEVING. In fact, the only sect I can think of that offers the slightest form of evidence has been pentecostals whose path to salvation is taken from a different verse than most other major denominations.

Acts 2

1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

12And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

13Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

44And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

46And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=2&version=9

 

[manifold]

You've gone way off the reservation this time.

 

[Ravi]

Maybe he has but I'm not sure I don't agree with him.

 

[manifold]

Maybe he has but I'm not sure I don't agree with him.

Good for you. I can't even figure out what he's on about.

All I said was it surprised me that he considers his absence of faith a choice. I seriously doubt that he could wake up tomorrow and all of a sudden believe in God merely because he decided he wanted to. I could be wrong or an exception to the rule, but I don't really think it works that way. I think it's more like sexual preference than say, what flavor ice cream you're in the mood for.

 

[Ravi]

Belief in God is like sexual preference? Could you explain that...

 

[manifold]

Belief in God is like sexual preference? Could you explain that...

Not a choice. I thought I was pretty clear about that.

 

[Shogun]

um, religion is just like sexual orientation, eh?

WOW.

 

[AllieBaba]

evidence is hardly a non-sequiter. flat earthers believe, and derive from, their faith that a god created the earth around 6-8k years ago. The evidence suggests otherwise but they are free to ignore such as it clashes with their beliefs. Likewise, many christians interpret naturally occuring order as evidence of a divine creator despite a lack of evidence making such a correlation. Is this proof? Even jebus knew that his deciples were fighting an uphill battle against belief despite the "evidence" of a returned messiah. Pilate washed his hands because he chose not to believe divinity over his duty. Peter himself, the very rock of the church, chose to deny jebus three times before the cock crowed AFTER following him around all that time. We make choices about what to believe regardless of the evidence.

The evidence "suggests".

Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

You have faith in one thing, I have faith in another.

 

[manifold]

um, religion is just like sexual orientation, eh?

WOW.

Just like?

Not what I said, but nice try.

 

[Shogun]

The evidence "suggests".

Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

You have faith in one thing, I have faith in another.

When compared with the "evidence' YOU have to offer it's quick to differentiate faith from physical reality.

 

[AllieBaba]

Your standards are just much lower than mine.

You'll accept any scientific theory with a wink and a smile. But you won't afford the same to Christian theory. Which just shows how biased you are.

There is a lot of Scripture that deals with the ignorance of "knowledge" and how the truth of God appears as foolishness to those who are too full of it.

 

[Shogun]

Your standards are just much lower than mine.

You'll accept any scientific theory with a wink and a smile. But you won't afford the same to Christian theory. Which just shows how biased you are.

There is a lot of Scripture that deals with the ignorance of "knowledge" and how the truth of God appears as foolishness to those who are too full of it.

christian THEORY is not supported by EVIDENCE like SCIENTIFIC THEORY IS. Hey, I'm biased against fortune telling with voodoo chicken guts too. Despite how much that liver looks like the state of Illinois.


scripture is no more evidence than any other nutty holy book. Thats the crux of your problem. You seem to think that a book full of fanciful tales and supernatural bullshit from the fucking bronze age are NOT the fruits of the same heroification process that gave us Washingtons cherry tree. Whip out for TANGIBLE EVIDENCE then, baba. Skin those smokestacks. You can tell jokes about how igh your standard of evidence is all day long and it will still be a knee slapping joke when you are asked to provide evidence beyond trite little martyr wannabe reactions to actual standards of science.

 

[AllieBaba]

Christian theory is supported by science all over the place.

And historians and archaeologists agree that the Bible is an accurate historical document. THere's more ancient evidence regarding the life of Jesus than there is about Caesar, or Socrates, or the pharoahs.

Learned people don't even debate it. You prove your ignorance when you go off the deep end about the quality of evidence being "better" for non-believers than that for believers.

 

[Shogun]

Christian theory is supported by science all over the place.

And historians and archaeologists agree that the Bible is an accurate historical document. THere's more ancient evidence regarding the life of Jesus than there is about Caesar, or Socrates, or the pharoahs.

Learned people don't even debate it. You prove your ignorance when you go off the deep end about the quality of evidence being "better" for non-believers than that for believers.

HA!

yea right. One single lame fucking creation museum just doesn't amount to much. And, if the bible is a historic document then so is every piece of polythesitic imagery suggesting a pantheon of greek and roman gods.


LEARNED! HAHAHAHA!

YOu said LEARNED!


oh shit.. that was worth a full on guffaw. INdeed, there are scientists EVERYWHERE just pawing their hands at all the solid evidence hidden within.. um.. a book of mythology.




Sorry, dingdong.. this is the real world.. Not some bible school pipe dream.

 

[AllieBaba]

You're going to feel so foolish if you ever achieve any level of education in the future.

 

[Shogun]

You're going to feel so foolish if you ever achieve any level of education in the future.

says the person who thinks that the bible is tangible evidence of her choice of dogma. I'll stack my education against your, baba. i know what you'll learn in an astrophysics class, geology and biology classes, etc. You can insist that the secular leftist proff is just picking on you when you get a poor grade with the "Noahs flood carved out the grand canyon" theory but hey.. there is a reason why thumpers have been offended at academics since copernicus dared to suggest heliocentrism, eh?

 

[AllieBaba]

You make all these assertions about me that have absolutely no basis in fact.

Never have I quoted the Bible as evidence of anything. Quite the opposite. I say over and over ad nauseum it's about faith.

The only "evidence" I offer is evidence which SUPPORTS claims made by the bible.

Though I have been astonished to learn that historians accept the ancient text much more literally than even I thought.

 

[Shogun]

You make all these assertions about me that have absolutely no basis in fact.

Never have I quoted the Bible as evidence of anything. Quite the opposite. I say over and over ad nauseum it's about faith.

The only "evidence" I offer is evidence which SUPPORTS claims made by the bible.

Though I have been astonished to learn that historians accept the ancient text much more literally than even I thought.

you JUST cited the bible as a fucking solid piece of evidence, baba. Do you need fucking post numbers now? Direct quotes? Show me a single non-james dobson type of mainstream scientist that puts any weight whatsoever in the miraculous smoke and mirrors tale of the bible beyond mere referance to geographic locations and historic rulers. Show me ONE person who uses the bible to make ANY scientific breakthrough regarding ANYTHING. Thats a pretty wide potential, yo. Surely you have gobs and gobs of people in the science world to choose from!

 

[AllieBaba]

Archaeologists use the old texts to find ancient historical sites.

But I've never said the Bible proves the existence of God. I've simply said nothing in the Bible has been DISPROVED and actually, quite a bit has been supported.