Jesus was a commie...

[Ravi]

no, it has nothing to do with choosing Good over Evil, or Right from Wrong....which is what freewill is.....the ability to discern right from wrong.

I can take a secular approach and answer you that "we the people" institute the laws upon ourselves through REPRESENTATION by those we elect...that sure sounds like a secular freewill to me....

care

Nice. Therefore all laws are the result of the group's freewill. Including welfare laws.

 

[M14 Shooter]

If it has nothing to do with your position, why are you afraid to answer the question?

Afraid? Dont flatter yourself.
There's no need for rme to defend/discuss a position that's not mine.
Thsi is where the charge of 'strawman' came in.

 

[manifold]

no, it has nothing to do with choosing Good over Evil, or Right from Wrong....which is what freewill is.....the ability to discern right from wrong.

I can take a secular approach and answer you that "we the people" institute the laws upon ourselves through REPRESENTATION by those we elect...that sure sounds like a secular freewill to me....

care

I don't follow your logic at all. Seriously. You start by saying no, and then you defend an answer of yes. Obviously I must be missing something.

 

[manifold]

Afraid? Dont flatter yourself.
There's no need for rme to defend/discuss a position that's not mine.
Thsi is where the charge of 'strawman' came in.

Can't even acknowledge a simple truth? That's pretty pathetic.

Now you're reminding me of the time Shogun recently expended almost a week and countless posts refusing to acknowledge the fact that the US government regulates, where it sees fit, what people ingest.


When we refuse to acknowledge simple truths, it is not possible to have any kind of meaningful discussion.

 

[Care4all]

Nice. Therefore all laws are the result of the group's freewill. Including welfare laws.

Welfare laws, corporate welfare laws, all the laws of our land are created by the sovereign power of the people, in our country....we have a government to support the "will of the people" in a secular sense....

Of course there will be laws that some agree with and some do not, and this will vary by the person....

but the laws themselves, still have nothing to do with the "religious" freewill that we were given in the garden... to me, the religious freewill is about personal responsibility for ones own decisions that relate to right from wrong or good from evil.

care

 

[M14 Shooter]

Can't even acknowledge a simple truth? That's pretty pathetic.

A simple truth that doent have anything to do with my argument.

That being the case, the simple truth is that it doesn't matter what YOUR argument is, if it doesn't address mine there's no need for me to respond to it.

 

[M14 Shooter]

but the laws themselves, still have nothing to do with the "religious" freewill that we were given in the garden... to me, the religious freewill is about personal responsibility for ones own decisions that relate to right from wrong or good from evil.

This is correct.

 

[manifold]

A simple truth that doent have anything to do with my argument.

That being the case, the simple truth is that it doesn't matter what YOUR argument is, if it doesn't address mine there's no need for me to respond to it.

I actually haven't made any argument concerning the original question. I'm merely pointing out that your argument is fatally flawed. A fact readily apparent to any reasonable, objective and intellectually honest person. It would seem that this doesn't include you.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I actually haven't made any argument concerning the original question. I'm merely pointing out that your argument is fatally flawed.

That's an amazing statement given that your're arguing against a psotion I haven't taken.

Anyone with any reason, objectivity and intellectual honesty person sees this.
It would seem that this doesn't include you.

 

[manifold]

That's an amazing statement given that you're arguing against a position I haven't taken.

You have taken the position I'm arguing against, implicitly. You are just too ignorant or too stubborn to acknowledge this fact.

 

[Shogun]

GOOD JOB PHARISEE CHRISTIANS! LET THE ATHEIST QUOTE THE BIBLE SINCE YOU ARE TOO MUCH OF A GIANT PUSSY TO DO SO.





Mark 8

Jesus Feeds the Four Thousand

1During those days another large crowd gathered. Since they had nothing to eat, Jesus called his disciples to him and said, 2"I have compassion for these people; they have already been with me three days and have nothing to eat. 3If I send them home hungry, they will collapse on the way, because some of them have come a long distance."

4His disciples answered, "But where in this remote place can anyone get enough bread to feed them?"

5"How many loaves do you have?" Jesus asked.
"Seven," they replied.

6He told the crowd to sit down on the ground. When he had taken the seven loaves and given thanks, he broke them and gave them to his disciples to set before the people, and they did so. 7They had a few small fish as well; he gave thanks for them also and told the disciples to distribute them. 8The people ate and were satisfied. Afterward the disciples picked up seven basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. 9About four thousand men were present. And having sent them away, 10he got into the boat with his disciples and went to the region of Dalmanutha.

11The Pharisees came and began to question Jesus. To test him, they asked him for a sign from heaven. 12He sighed deeply and said, "Why does this generation ask for a miraculous sign? I tell you the truth, no sign will be given to it." 13Then he left them, got back into the boat and crossed to the other side.

The Yeast of the Pharisees and Herod
14The disciples had forgotten to bring bread, except for one loaf they had with them in the boat. 15"Be careful," Jesus warned them. "Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and that of Herod."

16They discussed this with one another and said, "It is because we have no bread."

17Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked them: "Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened? 18Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? And don't you remember? 19When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?"
"Twelve," they replied.

20"And when I broke the seven loaves for the four thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?"
They answered, "Seven."

21He said to them, "Do you still not understand?"


and as a bonus:






Jesus Predicts His Death

31He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.

33But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. "Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

34Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 35For whoever wants to save his life[c] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it. 36What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul? 37Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? 38If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."


BibleGateway.com

 

[Ravi]

Welfare laws, corporate welfare laws, all the laws of our land are created by the sovereign power of the people, in our country....we have a government to support the "will of the people" in a secular sense....

Of course there will be laws that some agree with and some do not, and this will vary by the person....

but the laws themselves, still have nothing to do with the "religious" freewill that we were given in the garden... to me, the religious freewill is about personal responsibility for ones own decisions that relate to right from wrong or good from evil.

care

Okay. Do YOU think welfare is against religious free will?

 

[Care4all]

Okay. Do YOU think welfare is against religious free will?

No, i personally do not think that....when it comes to welfare for the needy.

 

[Dr Grump]

I'm no scientist. I cannot prove that photosynthesis occurs. But I believe scientists have proved it, so I believe them. I cannot prove that it is oxygen that keeps us humans alive (instead of nitrogen, hydrogen or whatever), but scientists have proved it. I believe them.

Similarly, I can't prove beyond all doubt that Jesus would have opposed the welfare state, but I have read things to that effect written by people who can, and don't believe it for a moment. That is all the proof I need. If it looks, quacks and waddles like a duck, chances are it ain't an alligator.

(Note: if this isn't good enugh for you, you'll need to take it up with Dr Grumpy, as this is HIS stanard of proof)

Bad comparison. I can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Sanders has called Obama Hussein and has called for his assassination. With Jesus and charity, what do you bring to the table? A book that has been translated god knows how many times and no idea who wrote and when (well, no viable proof, just a belief). You really need to bone up on what is considered evidence M14. You really are beginning ot look a tad MORE sillier than I initially thought...

 

[frazzledgear]

Okay. Do YOU think welfare is against religious free will?

No -the problem isn't with providing the poor with government assistance. A humane society does that -and do it personally as well as demand a government that provides some minimum level of aid to the poor. Poverty most often is NOT the result of someone just not trying hard enough to provide for themselves. We may all be equal under the law but we sure aren't all equally talented, skilled, creative, intelligent, born with equal opportunites or even have equal levels of drive and ambition. But welfare becomes a problem when a society ends up believing government's primary job is to try and produce an equal outcome for all its citizens -regardless of the very real inequities that will always exist. It is impossible to produce an equal outcome given the fact people are not equal in all the ways that contribute to a difference in earnings capablity. And governments which are given that mandate of guaranteeing equal outcomes for all are doomed to fail -while bankrupting their nation.

Our welfare system is actually quite generous but most of it is in the wrong way that is counterproductive and discourages self-reliance. And look at some of the very real consequences for a welfare system that does it the wrong way. We see entire families, one generation after another, that rely on welfare instead of themselves. We see people who are both physically and mentally capable of providing for themselves -who don't. We see people who do not provide for themselves rewarded with more government aid for bringing more and more children into the world -that they also do not provide for. I didn't have children until I knew I was financially capable of providing for them -but some people think that is "judgmental" to teach children in public schools that society expects its citizens not to produce children if they can't feed them? Since when did it become WRONG to demand some level of personal responsibility in welfare recipients -when everyone else is expected by society to lead their lives that way?

Unless I were mentally or physically incapable of it, no one OWES me a higher standard of living than the one I am able to provide for myself and neither does government -which uses money it took from me and you to do it. If I don't owe it myself, then government doesn't owe it by simply filtering my money through its inefficient bureaucracy first. If I choose to engage in self-destructive activities that destroy my ability to provide for myself as long as I continue those activities -then should the reward for such self-destructive activity be a financial reward with no strings attached? Or would a humane government send the message, it is able and willing to assist me -but I am expected to carry personal responsibility by kicking that habit in exchange?

A truly humane and decent society and government would realize what accomplishes the most and sees the greatest number leaving welfare and moving up the economic scale -is to try and provide some of the OPPORTUNITIES the poorest may have missed out on that have resulted in their greater inability to adequately provide for themselves. Government can't make people equally intelligent, talented, creative, ambitious or driven -but it can help close up the difference in equality of OPPORTUNITIES. That still makes the individual personally responsible for taking advantage of those opportunities -just like those greater opportunities would never have done a thing for others anyway unless they chose to take advantage of them.

That means changing the real focus of welfare from one of providing mere sustenance to one actively engaged in providing greater opportunities for the poor so they can better provide for themselves. It means a system that demands some level of personal responsibility in exchange for that assistance -like first successfully completing rehab at government expense before any other opportunities are provided if an individual is no longer providing for himself because of addiction. It means a system that provides testing in order to find out what the individual lacks for greater ability to more successfully provide for himself - and providing that opportunity to gain that. It means a system that REQUIRES all physically and mentally normal people to successfully participate with the understanding they are expected to eventually successfully provide for themselves -just like the taxpayers who paid for these opportunities.

If testing shows that remedial education is first needed, they must attend and successfully pass. It means requiring they then either successfully participate in job skills training or vocational training -and then required to work with agencies specifically set up to match the individual with a job commensurate with his new and greater level of skills. Those who stay successfully employed for a set period of time -can be given even greater encouragement to increase their ability to provide for themselves with financial aid to attend college.

Welfare as it exists today, easily becomes a lifelong path for too many who are physically and mentally capable of providing for themselves but don't and will not under a system that actually discourages them from doing so -because people created a welfare system that does for the individual what he isn't being encouraged to do for himself. While those who did do it for themselves, are taxed for doing so in order to pay for those who don't. Which is the root cause of resentment among some taxpayers -they want a system that not only serves as a temporary net but helps people become better able to provide for themselves so they don't need it again. Not one that merely supports them indefinitely while nothing is expected of the individual in return.

The real failure of government with regards to welfare is people with the lack of creativity and innovative thinking, who can't get beyond just throwing money at a problem creating this system - and then amazed when the problem doesn't disappear. Instead of people using creative and innovative thinking to figure out the necessary and significant changes needed to turn it into a system that truly assists those physically and mentally capable of providing for themselves -with the best opportunities to expand their ability to do so -and then sends them back out into the world as productive, independent and self-sufficient citizens.

 

[Ravi]

mentally capable of providing for themselves

Um, how do you know they are? There is so much more to the issue...

 

[Taomon]

...or at least his teachings seem to be considerably more consistent with socialist ideology than capitalist ideology.

So how come there aren't more Christian socialists?

Because, the Americanized Christian churches are capitalists.

Look at Evangelicalism, tel-evangelicalism, Baptists and Catholics. Their churches are run like corporations with a tax free shelter. They illegally politicize the pulpit. They harbor wealth as a holy armament.

There are Christians who believe that God and Country come first. God and country. It should be God and people. Jesus did not teach nationalism. In fact, he spoke out against it...much to the ire of Romans and Church leaders.

Not unlike liberals today who are vilified for espousing views such as helping the poor, sex ed, nuclear disarmament, ecological concerns and so on. These liberals are vilified by biased pundits and church leaders.

Are liberals the true Christ ministry and self-proclaimed Christian leaders a diabolic schism?