Jesus of Nazareth, Shroud of Turin

[Dalia]

The cloning of the clay stain said to be blood on the shroud was a success.
We have now resurrected Pokey, Gumby's sidekick clay horse.
View attachment 122476

So you don't care about the storie of the Shroud ? some other people are interested by Jesus story.
Don't need to make fun of the people who are chretien.

 

[HaShev]

Maybe he looked like the Marduk tablet his Baal story was chiseled from.
Or this creature below who said believe in him & you get candy:

View attachment 122498
Psalm 74:13-17, Yahweh slays the "Sea" (Leviathan).
*Sea was a slang term for Rome.
Jesus is the Rome created false prophet that came out of the sea.

At first you have to believe he is a man ?

The prophecy of the son of perdition(lucifer) is that he is a Created image of a man made perfect till we see (like in the information age) the iniquities in that false image.
Ezekiel 28

 

[Dalia]

You do not send a sample to a person who is in the country the Mob is prevalent in that has a stake in this ruse. You do not trust known liars with fake news opposing and contradicting former news.
On other words I don't believe your source, you need to contradict your own texts to believe that source and contradict the church who claimed they only had Peter and Yehudas shroud.
I like when people in trying to prove their case they end up willing to trash their other reasoning that they base their faith on.

And you think when ridiculising an answer after a search is a good way to do it?

 

[Dalia]

Maybe he looked like the Marduk tablet his Baal story was chiseled from.
Or this creature below who said believe in him & you get candy:

View attachment 122498
Psalm 74:13-17, Yahweh slays the "Sea" (Leviathan).
*Sea was a slang term for Rome.
Jesus is the Rome created false prophet that came out of the sea.

At first you have to believe he is a man ?

The prophecy of the son of perdition(lucifer) is that he is a Created image of a man made perfect till we see (like in the information age) the iniquities in that false image.
Ezekiel 28

The portraits I have proposed are not all perfect but they are not ridiculous like some propose here at my thread

 

[HaShev]

The cloning of the clay stain said to be blood on the shroud was a success.
We have now resurrected Pokey, Gumby's sidekick clay horse.
View attachment 122476

So you don't care about the storie of the Shroud ? some other people are interested by Jesus story.
Don't need to make fun of the people who are chretien.

Taking dna from the shroud is a scam, I should know I was the one who contacted the Berkley police, gave them my evidence that it was a scam, and the people were arrested for claiming they could clone off the DNA of what was said to be
CLAY MARKINGS not blood.

 

[HaShev]

Maybe he looked like the Marduk tablet his Baal story was chiseled from.
Or this creature below who said believe in him & you get candy:

View attachment 122498
Psalm 74:13-17, Yahweh slays the "Sea" (Leviathan).
*Sea was a slang term for Rome.
Jesus is the Rome created false prophet that came out of the sea.

At first you have to believe he is a man ?

The prophecy of the son of perdition(lucifer) is that he is a Created image of a man made perfect till we see (like in the information age) the iniquities in that false image.
Ezekiel 28

The portraits I have proposed are not all perfect but they are not ridiculous like some propose here at my thread

Who do you say these descriptions are if you and others can not tell us a SINGULAR figure in history you are calling Jesus nor abide by your own texts description?

 

[Dalia]

Maybe he looked like the Marduk tablet his Baal story was chiseled from.
Or this creature below who said believe in him & you get candy:

View attachment 122498
Psalm 74:13-17, Yahweh slays the "Sea" (Leviathan).
*Sea was a slang term for Rome.
Jesus is the Rome created false prophet that came out of the sea.

At first you have to believe he is a man ?

The prophecy of the son of perdition(lucifer) is that he is a Created image of a man made perfect till we see (like in the information age) the iniquities in that false image.
Ezekiel 28

The portraits I have proposed are not all perfect but they are not ridiculous like some propose here at my thread

Who do you say these descriptions are if you and others can not tell us a SINGULAR figure in history you are calling Jesus nor abide by your own texts description?

But I did not say that I had the answer either, I would like to have an idea of the phynomy of Jesus

 

[Dalia]

The cloning of the clay stain said to be blood on the shroud was a success.
We have now resurrected Pokey, Gumby's sidekick clay horse.
View attachment 122476

So you don't care about the storie of the Shroud ? some other people are interested by Jesus story.
Don't need to make fun of the people who are chretien.

Taking dna from the shroud is a scam, I should know I was the one who contacted the Berkley police, gave them my evidence that it was a scam, and the people were arrested for claiming they could clone off the DNA of what was said to be
CLAY MARKINGS not blood.

My thread was about the shroud of Jesus i never pretend having the answer i give some link for you they are not good enough but they are mind. And it does not matter to try to see what he would look like

 

[Dalia]

Did Jesus Exist? Searching for Evidence Beyond the Bible

THE MAN CHRIST JESUS. Did Jesus of Nazareth exist as a real human being? Outside of the New Testament, what is the evidence for his existence? In this article, author Lawrence Mykytiuk examines the extra-Biblical textual and archaeological evidence associated with the man who would become the central figure in Christianity. Here Jesus is depicted in a vibrant sixth-century C.E. mosaic from the Basilica of Sant’Apollinare Nuovo in Ravenna, Italy. Photo: Sant’Apollinare Nuovo Ravenna, Italy/Bridgeman Images.

Tacitus—or more formally, Caius/Gaius (or Publius) Cornelius Tacitus (55/56–c. 118 C.E.) was a Roman senator, orator and ethnographer, and arguably the best of Roman historians. His name is based on the Latin word tacitus, “silent,” from which we get the English word tacit. Interestingly, his compact prose uses silence and implications in a masterful way. One argument for the authenticity of the quotation below is that it is written in true Tacitean Latin.4 But first a short introduction.



Tacitus’s last major work, titled Annals, written c. 116–117 C.E., includes a biography of Nero. In 64 C.E., during a fire in Rome, Nero was suspected of secretly ordering the burning of a part of town where he wanted to carry out a building project, so he tried to shift the blame to Christians. This was the occasion for Tacitus to mention Christians, whom he despised. This is what he wrote—the following excerpt is translated from Latin by Robert Van Voorst:



[N]either human effort nor the emperor’s generosity nor the placating of the gods ended the scandalous belief that the fire had been ordered [by Nero]. Therefore, to put down the rumor, Nero substituted as culprits and punished in the most unusual ways those hated for their shameful acts … whom the crowd called “Chrestians.” The founder of this name, Christ [Christus in Latin], had been executed in the reign of Tiberius by the procurator Pontius Pilate … Suppressed for a time, the deadly superstition erupted again not only in Judea, the origin of this evil, but also in the city [Rome], where all things horrible and shameful from everywhere come together and become popular.5

Tacitus’s terse statement about “Christus” clearly corroborates the New Testament on certain historical details of Jesus’ death. Tacitus presents four pieces of accurate knowledge about Jesus: (1) Christus, used by Tacitus to refer to Jesus, was one distinctive way by which some referred to him, even though Tacitus mistakenly took it for a personal name rather than an epithet or title; (2) this Christus was associated with the beginning of the movement of Christians, whose name originated from his; (3) he was executed by the Roman governor of Judea; and (4) the time of his death was during Pontius Pilate’s governorship of Judea, during the reign of Tiberius. (Many New Testament scholars date Jesus’ death to c. 29 C.E.; Pilate governed Judea in 26–36 C.E., while Tiberius was emperor 14–37 C.E.6)

Tacitus, like classical authors in general, does not reveal the source(s) he used. But this should not detract from our confidence in Tacitus’s assertions. Scholars generally disagree about what his sources were. Tacitus was certainly among Rome’s best historians—arguably the best of all—at the top of his game as a historian and never given to careless writing.

Earlier in his career, when Tacitus was Proconsul of Asia,7 he likely supervised trials, questioned people accused of being Christians and judged and punished those whom he found guilty, as his friend Pliny the Younger had done when he too was a provincial governor. Thus Tacitus stood a very good chance of becoming aware of information that he characteristically would have wanted to verify before accepting it as true.8



The other strong evidence that speaks directly about Jesus as a real person comes from Josephus, a Jewish priest who grew up as an aristocrat in first-century Palestine and ended up living in Rome, supported by the patronage of three successive emperors. In the early days of the first Jewish Revolt against Rome (66–70 C.E.), Josephus was a commander in Galilee but soon surrendered and became a prisoner of war. He then prophesied that his conqueror, the Roman commander Vespasian, would become emperor, and when this actually happened, Vespasian freed him. “From then on Josephus lived in Rome under the protection of the Flavians and there composed his historical and apologetic writings” (Gerd Theissen and Annette Merz).9 He even took the name Flavius, after the family name of his patron, the emperor Vespasian, and set it before his birth name, becoming, in true Roman style, Flavius Josephus. Most Jews viewed him as a despicable traitor. It was by command of Vespasian’s son Titus that a Roman army in 70 C.E. destroyed Jerusalem and burned the Temple, stealing its contents as spoils of war, which are partly portrayed in the imagery of their gloating triumph on the Arch of Titus in Rome.10 After Titus succeeded his father as emperor, Josephus accepted the son’s imperial patronage, as he did of Titus’s brother and successor, Domitian.

Yet in his own mind, Josephus remained a Jew both in his outlook and in his writings that extol Judaism. At the same time, by aligning himself with Roman emperors who were at that time the worst enemies of the Jewish people, he chose to ignore Jewish popular opinion.

Josephus stood in a unique position as a Jew who was secure in Roman imperial patronage and protection, eager to express pride in his Jewish heritage and yet personally independent of the Jewish community at large. Thus, in introducing Romans to Judaism, he felt free to write historical views for Roman consumption that were strongly at variance with rabbinic views.



In his two great works, The Jewish War and Jewish Antiquities, both written in Greek for educated people, Josephus tried to appeal to aristocrats in the Roman world, presenting Judaism as a religion to be admired for its moral and philosophical depth. The Jewish War doesn’t mention Jesus except in some versions in likely later additions by others, but Jewish Antiquities does mention Jesus—twice.

The shorter of these two references to Jesus (in Book 20)11 is incidental to identifying Jesus’ brother James,12 the leader of the church in Jerusalem. In the temporary absence of a Roman governor between Festus’s death and governor Albinus’s arrival in 62 C.E., the high priest Ananus instigated James’s execution. Josephus described it:

Being therefore this kind of person [i.e., a heartless Sadducee], Ananus, thinking that he had a favorable opportunity because Festus had died and Albinus was still on his way, called a meeting [literally, “sanhedrin”] of judges and brought into it the brother of Jesus-who-is-called-Messiah … James by name, and some others. He made the accusation that they had transgressed the law, and he handed them over to be stoned.13

James is otherwise a barely noticed, minor figure in Josephus’s lengthy tome. The sole reason for referring to James at all was that his death resulted in Ananus losing his position as high priest. James (Jacob) was a common Jewish name at this time. Many men named James are mentioned in Josephus’s works, so Josephus needed to specify which one he meant. The common custom of simply giving the father’s name (James, son of Joseph) would not work here, because James’s father’s name was also very common. Therefore Josephus identified this James by reference to his famous brother Jesus. But James’s brother Jesus (Yehoshua) also had a very common name. Josephus mentions at least 12 other men named Jesus.14 Therefore Josephus specified which Jesus he was referring to by adding the phrase “who is called Messiah,” or, since he was writing in Greek, Christos.15 This phrase was necessary to identify clearly first Jesus and, via Jesus, James, the subject of the discussion. This extraneous reference to Jesus would have made no sense if Jesus had not been a real person.


Few scholars have ever doubted the authenticity of this short account. On the contrary, the huge majority accepts it as genuine.16 The phrase intended to specify which Jesus, translated “who is called Christ,” signifies either that he was mentioned earlier in the book or that readers knew him well enough to grasp the reference to him in identifying James. The latter is unlikely. First-century Romans generally had little or no idea who Christus was. It is much more likely that he was mentioned earlier in Jewish Antiquities. Also, the fact that the term “Messiah”/“Christ” is not defined here suggests that an earlier passage inJewish Antiquities has already mentioned something of its significance.17 This phrase is also appropriate for a Jewish historian like Josephus because the reference to Jesus is a noncommittal, neutral statement about what some people called Jesus and not a confession of faith that actually asserts that he was Christ.

This phrase—“who is called Christ”—is very unlikely to have been added by a Christian for two reasons. First, in the New Testament and in the early Church Fathers of the first two centuries C.E., Christians consistently refer to James as “the brother of the Lord” or “of the Savior” and similar terms, not “the brother of Jesus,” presumably because the name Jesus was very common and did not necessarily refer to their Lord. Second, Josephus’s description in Jewish Antiquities of how and when James was executed disagrees with Christian tradition, likewise implying a non-Christian author.18

This short identification of James by the title that some people used in order to specify his brother gains credibility as an affirmation of Jesus’ existence because the passage is not about Jesus. Rather, his name appears in a functional phrase that is called for by the sense of the passage. It can only be useful for the identification of James if it is a reference to a real person, namely, “Jesus who is called Christ.”

This clear reference to Jesus is sometimes overlooked in debates about Josephus’s other, longer reference to Jesus (to be treated next). Quite a few people are aware of the questions and doubts regarding the longer mention of Jesus, but often this other clear, simple reference and its strength as evidence for Jesus’ existence does not receive due attention.

The longer passage in Josephus’s Jewish Antiquities (Book 18)19 that refers to Jesus is known as theTestimonium Flavianum.

If it has any value in relation to the question of Jesus’ existence, it counts as additional evidence for Jesus’ existence. The Testimonium Flavianum reads as follows; the parts that are especially suspicious because they sound Christian are in italics:20

Around this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man.21 For he was one who did surprising deeds, and a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who in the first place came to love him did not give up their affection for him, for on the third day, he appeared to them restored to life. The prophets of God had prophesied this and countless other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of Christians, so called after him, have still to this day not died out.22

All surviving manuscripts of the Testimonium Flavianum that are in Greek, like the original, contain the same version of this passage, with no significant differences.

The main question is: Did Flavius Josephus write this entire report about Jesus and his followers, or did a forger or forgers alter it or possibly insert the whole report?23 There are three ways to answer this question:24

Alternative 1: The whole passage is authentic, written by Josephus.Alternative 2: The whole passage is a forgery, inserted into Jewish Antiquities.
Alternative 3: It is only partly authentic, containing some material from Josephus, but also
some later additions by another hand(s).

Regarding Alternative 1, today almost no scholar accepts the authenticity of the entire standard Greek Testimonium Flavianum. In contrast to the obviously Christian statement “He was the Messiah” in the Testimonium, Josephus elsewhere “writes as a passionate advocate of Judaism,” says Josephus expert Steve Mason. “Everywhere Josephus praises the excellent constitution of the Jews, codified by Moses, and declares its peerless, comprehensive qualities … Josephus rejoices over converts to Judaism. In all this, there is not the slightest hint of any belief in Jesus”25 as seems to be reflected in the Testimonium.

The bold affirmation of Jesus as Messiah reads as a resounding Christian confession that echoes St. Peter himself!26 It cannot be Josephus. Alternative 1 is clearly out.

Regarding Alternative 2—the whole Testimonium Flavianum is a forgery—this is very unlikely. What is said, and the expressions in Greek that are used to say it, despite a few words that don’t seem characteristic of Josephus, generally fit much better with Josephus’s writings than with Christian writings.27 It is hypothetically possible that a forger could have learned to imitate Josephus’s style or that a reviser adjusted the passage to that style, but such a deep level of attention, based on an extensive, detailed reading of Josephus’s works and such a meticulous adoption of his vocabulary and style, goes far beyond what a forger or a reviser would need to do.

Even more important, the short passage (treated above) that mentions Jesus in order to identify James appears in a later section of the book (Book 20) and implies that Jesus was mentioned previously.

Did Jesus Exist? Searching for Evidence Beyond the Bible - Biblical Archaeology Society

 

[HaShev]

Maybe he looked like the Marduk tablet his Baal story was chiseled from.
Or this creature below who said believe in him & you get candy:

View attachment 122498
Psalm 74:13-17, Yahweh slays the "Sea" (Leviathan).
*Sea was a slang term for Rome.
Jesus is the Rome created false prophet that came out of the sea.

At first you have to believe he is a man ?

The prophecy of the son of perdition(lucifer) is that he is a Created image of a man made perfect till we see (like in the information age) the iniquities in that false image.
Ezekiel 28

The portraits I have proposed are not all perfect but they are not ridiculous like some propose here at my thread

Who do you say these descriptions are if you and others can not tell us a SINGULAR figure in history you are calling Jesus nor abide by your own texts description?

But I did not say that I had the answer either, I would like to have an idea of the phynomy of Jesus

Rome distorted history by changing names, times & eras, holidays etc just as Christianity said Satan (accuser-adversary) would do.
Therefore you can probably never know which christ figure was what height, lived to what age, sexual orientation etc and using the Generic Jesus will not help, in fact it automatically disqualifies anything one says since Jesus isn't the historical reference he's not a singular historical figure hence why the image is given the new name and birthdate.
And why his apostles are also given new names an eras to fit each Christs references in order to convince their followers this Jesus was about their christ.

 

[HaShev]

That was a whole lot of post for nothing of an argument.
Tacitus’s could be refering to Krishnas who was called Christos. Mithra was popular in Rome and was a christ.
Why would Jews use a Greek term not Hebrew term? There was yet to be lnown this term Christian. The cults that existed were HANOTZRIM, NAZARENES which might have been YEHUDITES, or THEUDAS FOLLOWERS.
Benjamin the Egyptian followers, Mithras cults, Baal cults, a real life of Brian them going on back then. Christianity probably formed as all those combined cults that followed a christ figure.
Fact: no Historian of the 100bc-45ad era which the span of Christs lived ever mention Jesus, however they Josephus do mention the man figures used for his compiled image.

Which brings us to Josephus.
Have you read the earliest copies of Josephus? Jesus is never mentioned.
He only magically appears in later texts around the time of the geat liar forger Eusebius in Constantine's era. He is place out of sequence in Josephus revealing he is placed and forced in the texts. Josephus is a Jew not a Christian so he would not call him a christ(messiah).
Nor call a Jewish figure by a Greek name even if writing in Greek, because his Hebrew name stays Hebrew like all other figures Josephus discusses, Ahhhhhh you didn't think about that did you? Only a Christian like Eusebius would call him Jesus and Christ. Fo read the earliest copies having the locations of the Jesus story in the newer version and see what you find (or rather don't find mentioned).

Your NT mentions the Christs that existed in that era that Josephus discusses.
Yehuda and Theudas are in Book of acts think chapter 5? But your NT butchers history by claiming Yehuda of Galilee(6bc) died after Theudas(45ad). Knowing Rome that might have been intentional since they need to keep the historical figures squelched from realization into the Jesus image or oerhaps they needed to fit the Galilean into the AD Pilate era to cover their mistaken story like they did trying to move his birthdate back 6 yrs to fit King Herod who died in 4bc -oops..