Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

[hortysir]

In heaven?

You must be a Universalist then.
Good. So am I. God would have it no other way. If he was real that is.

Regards
DL

Agnostic, I take it?

No. Gnostic Christian. The Godhead I know is not the bible God.
Mine has morals while he does not. No proof of this of course except to myself.
That is always the way with apotheosis.

Regards
DL

So you suck at reading comprehension when it comes to the Bible, so you "walk your own path".



"Because you were lukewarm I spat you out"

 

[GreatestIam]

I prefer to look at it that God made a perfect pot. And we, by abusing or misuing the pot, put a hole or crack in it. Whose fault is that?

Again, if God preordained that we would abuse the pot, we have no free will. Our very discussion here is something he wrote out and is having us say. We have no say or choice in the matter whatsoever and even a concept of forgiveness is just part of a scripted play.

Or if you believe you do have a choice of whether to do good or do evil, then it is not God's fault which you choose.

Ok.
Let me look at it from YPOV.
God creates all things perfect.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

If we follow this scriptural analogy, then tell us how a perfect anything can somehow do what is not perfect.

If we are perfect and can somehow be corrupted, then so can God. Right?

Regards
DL

No... God makes the rules. Simple as that.

He is perfect, and we are not. He knows this and is ready to forgive us of those imperfections.

Thank God, because lord knows I am imperfect. (I know its hard to believe)

Eh. I was speaking with someone who says that we all begin perfect and the question was to her.

If you think God does not create in a perfect way then you should argue that point with her.

I actually have no problem with thinking that this following is a truism.

When this was written, most thought it to just be a cynical view of life but I think it is quite true and irrefutable, based on the anthropic principle.
What do you think?

Candide

"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPClzIsYxvA]Candide - 03 Best of all possible worlds - YouTube[/ame]

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

[

So God may have had a choice. Make the universe into some kind of plaything to be manipulated at will, all planned in advance by Him. Or he could have placed we creatures into a perfect universe that we had capability of damaging and destroying as well as preserving and protecting, because without such capability we could not know pride, joy, exhuberance, thrill, satisfaction, love.

So all you have is opinion and no facts about God yet you doubt the logic that human law and morality is based on. A shame.

All for a God of the Gaps.

Go ahead and bet your soul on the words of men and ignore what your heart tells you then.

You have my sympathy as you will never know our true God.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

Agnostic, I take it?

No. Gnostic Christian. The Godhead I know is not the bible God.
Mine has morals while he does not. No proof of this of course except to myself.
That is always the way with apotheosis.

Regards
DL

So you suck at reading comprehension when it comes to the Bible, so you "walk your own path".



"Because you were lukewarm I spat you out"

Is there something of my reading that you would like to correct?

Or is your style just to chastise without correcting which would just show your cruel nature?

Regards
DL

 

[hortysir]

No. Gnostic Christian. The Godhead I know is not the bible God.
Mine has morals while he does not. No proof of this of course except to myself.
That is always the way with apotheosis.

Regards
DL

So you suck at reading comprehension when it comes to the Bible, so you "walk your own path".



"Because you were lukewarm I spat you out"

Is there something of my reading that you would like to correct?

Or is your style just to chastise without correcting which would just show your cruel nature?

Regards
DL

A few sentences that I may post or, even, a few pages will not change your belief.

I'm sorry that you translate True Love into insanity and hate.

Nothing I say will change that.
Maybe what I pray can.


*unsubscribe*

 

[laughinReaper]

True. That is why it is unjust for Jesus to usurp the victims right.

Regards
DL

Jesus forgiving the perp does nothing to the victim.
At that point it is no longer about the victim. It is between The Lord God and the perp.

The victim is not affected one way or another.

Except that God caused the evil in the first place as those quotes above show and the victim is denied closure and the benefits that forgiving brings. That is unjust.

Regards
DL

God doesn't cause the evil, we do.
Genesis 2:9

New International Version (NIV)


9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I don't know that God created evil which is your argument here. It says God Made trees of all kinds and then goes on but does not directly say that God created the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil which was placed in the middle of the garden. God did not create man as evil but gave them the choice and warned them not to eat of the tree where evil is found. Man chose to eat of the tree and then there eyes were opened to Evil. That's not Gods doing. Taxman says pay your taxes. If I do I Shouldn't land in jail , If I don't the IRS comes and tears up my life and tosses me in jail. Who's fault is it?

 

[laughinReaper]

you said in the original post" Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to the victim" and "The one sinned against has the first right of forgiveness."

I pointed out that

A. If Christ is God, and God is the one sinned against, then Jesus being God has the right to forgive because he is the one sinned against.

I have quotes just above that show that Jesus causes the sin in the first place.
He is thus not sinned against.

No one without a swelled head would believe they can hurt a God.




Exactly. Forgiveness is healing and the victim needs healing. Not a God who cannot be hurt.

These to religious facts prove your premise incorrect. Christ forgave on behalf of God/himself being the victim,therefore he was justified in his actions. Forgiveness of humans by humans is a completely different issue but guidelines for dealing with such is given in the bible also.

Not so as I just showed above.

Unless you think an offence has to be forgiven more than once which would be a miscarriage of justice.

Regards
DL

It does if more than one person was offended. God can be offended. If you sin against your brother and against God you owe an appology to both from which you hopefully will recieve forgiveness from both. What God forgives is offense that was against him, not the offense against the brother. That offense against the brother has to be forgiven by the brother and the Bible says as much.

 

[GreatestIam]

So you suck at reading comprehension when it comes to the Bible, so you "walk your own path".



"Because you were lukewarm I spat you out"

Is there something of my reading that you would like to correct?

Or is your style just to chastise without correcting which would just show your cruel nature?

Regards
DL

A few sentences that I may post or, even, a few pages will not change your belief.

I'm sorry that you translate True Love into insanity and hate.

Nothing I say will change that.
Maybe what I pray can.


*unsubscribe*

Thanks for showing us your true nature by ending with a lie.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

Jesus forgiving the perp does nothing to the victim.
At that point it is no longer about the victim. It is between The Lord God and the perp.

The victim is not affected one way or another.

Except that God caused the evil in the first place as those quotes above show and the victim is denied closure and the benefits that forgiving brings. That is unjust.

Regards
DL

God doesn't cause the evil, we do.
Genesis 2:9

New International Version (NIV)


9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I don't know that God created evil which is your argument here. It says God Made trees of all kinds and then goes on but does not directly say that God created the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil which was placed in the middle of the garden. God did not create man as evil but gave them the choice and warned them not to eat of the tree where evil is found. Man chose to eat of the tree and then there eyes were opened to Evil. That's not Gods doing. Taxman says pay your taxes. If I do I Shouldn't land in jail , If I don't the IRS comes and tears up my life and tosses me in jail. Who's fault is it?

Let me check what your word says for an answer to your good question.


Nehemiah 13:18
Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city?

Jeremiah 19:15
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon this city and upon all her towns all the evil that I have pronounced against it,

Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Oh my, these say it is God's fault.

Are you responsible for what you create at work?
Yes you are.

Should God be responsible for what he does in works?
Yes he should.

You have taken the Christian view of Eden as a fall.
The owners of the O T, the Jews, did not see a fall.
You might wonder why Christianity reversed the better Jewish version.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

[

It does if more than one person was offended. God can be offended. If you sin against your brother and against God you owe an appology to both from which you hopefully will recieve forgiveness from both. What God forgives is offense that was against him, not the offense against the brother. That offense against the brother has to be forgiven by the brother and the Bible says as much.

Myths say many things.

If a brother forgives a sin, then that debt is paid.
For Jesus to demand another payment is immoral.

Let me repeat.

Only those with really swollen heads and inflated egos will think they can hurt God in any way.

God's will is supreme and he would not will harm or hurt to himself. He is not that stupid.

Stupid yes, but not that stupid.

Regards
DL

 

[Foxfyre]

[

So God may have had a choice. Make the universe into some kind of plaything to be manipulated at will, all planned in advance by Him. Or he could have placed we creatures into a perfect universe that we had capability of damaging and destroying as well as preserving and protecting, because without such capability we could not know pride, joy, exhuberance, thrill, satisfaction, love.

So all you have is opinion and no facts about God yet you doubt the logic that human law and morality is based on. A shame.

All for a God of the Gaps.

Go ahead and bet your soul on the words of men and ignore what your heart tells you then.

You have my sympathy as you will never know our true God.

Regards
DL

I'm sorry that you chose to turn what was a civil discussion into something hateful and ad hominem. Do you really think you encourage people to know God by insulting them? Is that the kind of God you worship? It is not the God I worship.

The God I worship is the author of reason and logic along with everything else in the universe. And as we are all equally limited in our capacity to know who and what God is, I count my opinion as good as anybody elses.

And don't look now, but your opinion is also 'the words of men'.

 

[AmericanFirst]

Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

Sin, by it’s very nature must have a victim. Without a victim, there is no sin.

The one sinned against has the first right of forgiveness.

If Jesus usurps that right then I think it would be unjust.

Closure is being denied the victim thus victimizing is twofold.

Jesus would not condone such a thing.

Secular law now demands a victim assessment report before sentence is given.

To think that Jesus would ignore this requirement is unthinkable.

This means that, “Why have you forsaken me? “, is answered by God with; because what you do is immoral. You deny the victim her or his rights. It is also unjust to punish the innocent instead of the guilty. In fact, that notion is insane.

In the scenario shown here the victim is ignored thus showing the flaw in the judge’s ruling, if he accepts substitutionary atonement.

Richard Dawkins schools Howard Conder on morality - YouTube

Regards
DL

Sin is defined as sin against God. So, are you saying God is a victim? You are still confused I see.

 

[Foxfyre]

Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

Sin, by it’s very nature must have a victim. Without a victim, there is no sin.

The one sinned against has the first right of forgiveness.

If Jesus usurps that right then I think it would be unjust.

Closure is being denied the victim thus victimizing is twofold.

Jesus would not condone such a thing.

Secular law now demands a victim assessment report before sentence is given.

To think that Jesus would ignore this requirement is unthinkable.

This means that, “Why have you forsaken me? “, is answered by God with; because what you do is immoral. You deny the victim her or his rights. It is also unjust to punish the innocent instead of the guilty. In fact, that notion is insane.

In the scenario shown here the victim is ignored thus showing the flaw in the judge’s ruling, if he accepts substitutionary atonement.

Richard Dawkins schools Howard Conder on morality - YouTube

Regards
DL

Sin is defined as sin against God. So, are you saying God is a victim? You are still confused I see.

That is one definition of sin. I define sin as that which harms us or another, intentionally or inadvertently, directly or indirecty. And I see sin as that which little by little, drip by drip, in actions of some magnitude, or something as insignificant as dumping a drop of mercury into a landfill, all spoils a little bit of God's perfect creation. As the Bible says, the sins of the fathers are visted uponj the children even unto the fourth and fifth generations. (Or perhaps forever if by our diet or other activities we disrupt our genetic code, etc.)

I do have the choice to forgive or not forgive the man who polluted my water supply. He has the choice to beg my forgiveness which, if it is possible, would include his willingness to clean up the mess. But I have no right or ability to forgive whatever harm he did to others.

No sin is without consequence, which is why sin is bad.

 

[GreatestIam]

[
Sin is defined as sin against God. So, are you saying God is a victim? You are still confused I see.

Sin is defined that way by Christians. Not by me. I do not believe in their super absentee miracle working God.

I said above that God could not possibly be a victim and thus has no claims on us to repent and has no right to punish or forgive.

Let me repeat to end your confusion on this.

Only those with really swollen heads and inflated egos will think they can hurt God in any way.

God's will is supreme and he would not will harm or hurt to himself. He is not that stupid.

Stupid yes, but not that stupid.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

[

So God may have had a choice. Make the universe into some kind of plaything to be manipulated at will, all planned in advance by Him. Or he could have placed we creatures into a perfect universe that we had capability of damaging and destroying as well as preserving and protecting, because without such capability we could not know pride, joy, exhuberance, thrill, satisfaction, love.

So all you have is opinion and no facts about God yet you doubt the logic that human law and morality is based on. A shame.

All for a God of the Gaps.

Go ahead and bet your soul on the words of men and ignore what your heart tells you then.

You have my sympathy as you will never know our true God.

Regards
DL

I'm sorry that you chose to turn what was a civil discussion into something hateful and ad hominem. Do you really think you encourage people to know God by insulting them? Is that the kind of God you worship? It is not the God I worship.

The God I worship is the author of reason and logic along with everything else in the universe. And as we are all equally limited in our capacity to know who and what God is, I count my opinion as good as anybody elses.

And don't look now, but your opinion is also 'the words of men'.

And yours are not?

Regards
DL

 

[Moonglow]

Forgiveness in something you do for yourself as a "victim." It is the perpetrators choice whether or not to accept it.

True. That is why it is unjust for Jesus to usurp the victims right.

Regards
DL

the whole act is voluntary, nobody is undermining souls of anyone.

 

[Foxfyre]

So all you have is opinion and no facts about God yet you doubt the logic that human law and morality is based on. A shame.

All for a God of the Gaps.

Go ahead and bet your soul on the words of men and ignore what your heart tells you then.

You have my sympathy as you will never know our true God.

Regards
DL

I'm sorry that you chose to turn what was a civil discussion into something hateful and ad hominem. Do you really think you encourage people to know God by insulting them? Is that the kind of God you worship? It is not the God I worship.

The God I worship is the author of reason and logic along with everything else in the universe. And as we are all equally limited in our capacity to know who and what God is, I count my opinion as good as anybody elses.

And don't look now, but your opinion is also 'the words of men'.

And yours are not?

Regards
DL

I didn't say that did I.

You were the one who seemed to think it okay to accuse another for expressing an opinion. Just pointing out that when you point your finger at somebody, three other fingers are pointing back at you.

 

[GreatestIam]

Forgiveness in something you do for yourself as a "victim." It is the perpetrators choice whether or not to accept it.

True. That is why it is unjust for Jesus to usurp the victims right.

Regards
DL

the whole act is voluntary, nobody is undermining souls of anyone.

Huh?

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

I'm sorry that you chose to turn what was a civil discussion into something hateful and ad hominem. Do you really think you encourage people to know God by insulting them? Is that the kind of God you worship? It is not the God I worship.

The God I worship is the author of reason and logic along with everything else in the universe. And as we are all equally limited in our capacity to know who and what God is, I count my opinion as good as anybody elses.

And don't look now, but your opinion is also 'the words of men'.

And yours are not?

Regards
DL

I didn't say that did I.

You were the one who seemed to think it okay to accuse another for expressing an opinion. Just pointing out that when you point your finger at somebody, three other fingers are pointing back at you.

I have no problem with that at all.

I have logic and reason on my side while the others have faith in fantasy, miracles and magic.

Regards
DL

 

[AmericanFirst]

Except that God caused the evil in the first place as those quotes above show and the victim is denied closure and the benefits that forgiving brings. That is unjust.

Regards
DL

God doesn't cause the evil, we do.
Genesis 2:9

New International Version (NIV)


9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I don't know that God created evil which is your argument here. It says God Made trees of all kinds and then goes on but does not directly say that God created the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil which was placed in the middle of the garden. God did not create man as evil but gave them the choice and warned them not to eat of the tree where evil is found. Man chose to eat of the tree and then there eyes were opened to Evil. That's not Gods doing. Taxman says pay your taxes. If I do I Shouldn't land in jail , If I don't the IRS comes and tears up my life and tosses me in jail. Who's fault is it?

Let me check what your word says for an answer to your good question.


Nehemiah 13:18
Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city?

Jeremiah 19:15
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon this city and upon all her towns all the evil that I have pronounced against it,

Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Oh my, these say it is God's fault.

Are you responsible for what you create at work?
Yes you are.

Should God be responsible for what he does in works?
Yes he should.

You have taken the Christian view of Eden as a fall.
The owners of the O T, the Jews, did not see a fall.
You might wonder why Christianity reversed the better Jewish version.

Regards
DL

You might wonder why you use certain versus, that have nothing to do with each other, to try and prove your ignorance. I do not wonder, I know you are ignorant. Stop trying to prove otherwise.