Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

[GreatestIam]

Jesus restores that which the perpetrator took from the victim. He paid the price of Justice with His blood. He has every right to forgive the sinner. The greater sin is not forgiving them.

It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

Regards
DL

Only if you misinterpret the corruption of Christianity as being the Foundation of Christianity.
I see the story of Adam and Eve as metaphor/allegory as a beginning of an on-going explanation of why things are the way they are, one that intermittantly continues throughout the scriptures. God did not forgive the sin of Adam and Eve or Cain but imposed the penalty of sin upon them. Thus a teaching that there are consequences for sin. And there is also the theme that God redeems those who recognize and seek forgiveness for their sin.

The teaching continues throughout scripture in a repeating motif of creation, sin, judgment, redemption.

And what kind of God gives his son up for sacrifice? It is an amazing thing once you realize that God is the Son, and the Son is God, and the sacrifice a supreme sacrifice of God taking our sin upon himself so that we could seek forgiveness and would not be held accountable for our sins against God.

That does not suppose no consequence of sin, however, as all sin, intentional and unintentional, spoils a bit of God's perfect cration. And that is why sin is bad and why God is against it.

Adam and Eve's sin?
What sin?

Is wanting your eyes opened so that you can do as scriptures say and emulate God a sin?

Do you not wish to get closer to God?
If so, what is wrong with A & E doing just that?

As to your trying to profit from the murder of an innocent man.

Read your bible starting with this.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Your wickedness is on you. Not on Jesus. Repent of your self-centered thinking.

Psalm 49:7
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ott15j2KwQ&feature=related]God Killed Jesus (Responsibility & Christianity) - YouTube[/ame]

Regards
DL

 

[Foxfyre]

Forgiveness is not holding the other person responsible to make you whole. It is accepting the consequences of whatever the other person did and not requiring anything of them as repayment for their 'sin'. And as Jesus said to forgive from the heart, it is also not continuing to punish them but letting it go.

It is not our prerogative to forgive somebody for what they did to somebody else.

Exactly.
It is the victim's preogative to forgive. Not anyone else and not Jesus'.

Your conclusion is correct even as your logic trail above it was faulty.

Regards
DL

I don't think my logic is faulty at all. As Jesus said, his Kingdom is not of this world, and the forgiveness he offers is not for those sins we commit against others--he was very explicit that it was our responsibility to seek forgiveness from those we have harmed. His forgiveness was to remove the penalty for breaking God's commandments, for failure to obey God's law.

He was also explicit in his parables that we have every right to hold accountable those who owe us, who wrong us, etc. And even though we may choose to forgive the other, and that is the right thing to do, we are not obligated to put ourselves into the position of allowing the other person to hurt us again and again.

 

[GreatestIam]

[.

I do not want to get repetitious so may I ask that you read my comments above and come on back.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

[q

i'm not a christian. but i think you're mixing apples and oranges intentionally.

Misstatements and intentional deception.

I speak without analyzing. You analyze without understanding.

Uphill from here I guess.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

Forgiveness is not holding the other person responsible to make you whole. It is accepting the consequences of whatever the other person did and not requiring anything of them as repayment for their 'sin'. And as Jesus said to forgive from the heart, it is also not continuing to punish them but letting it go.

It is not our prerogative to forgive somebody for what they did to somebody else.

Exactly.
It is the victim's preogative to forgive. Not anyone else and not Jesus'.

Your conclusion is correct even as your logic trail above it was faulty.

Regards
DL

I don't think my logic is faulty at all. As Jesus said, his Kingdom is not of this world, and the forgiveness he offers is not for those sins we commit against others--he was very explicit that it was our responsibility to seek forgiveness from those we have harmed. His forgiveness was to remove the penalty for breaking God's commandments, for failure to obey God's law.

He was also explicit in his parables that we have every right to hold accountable those who owe us, who wrong us, etc. And even though we may choose to forgive the other, and that is the right thing to do, we are not obligated to put ourselves into the position of allowing the other person to hurt us again and again.

I agree that theyy are accountable to us and not to Jesus.
That is why forgiveness is to us and not some third party.

How many times must the one sin be fiorgiven.

If you forgive than what is there for Jesus to forgive?

Regards
DL

 

[Foxfyre]

Exactly.
It is the victim's preogative to forgive. Not anyone else and not Jesus'.

Your conclusion is correct even as your logic trail above it was faulty.

Regards
DL

I don't think my logic is faulty at all. As Jesus said, his Kingdom is not of this world, and the forgiveness he offers is not for those sins we commit against others--he was very explicit that it was our responsibility to seek forgiveness from those we have harmed. His forgiveness was to remove the penalty for breaking God's commandments, for failure to obey God's law.

He was also explicit in his parables that we have every right to hold accountable those who owe us, who wrong us, etc. And even though we may choose to forgive the other, and that is the right thing to do, we are not obligated to put ourselves into the position of allowing the other person to hurt us again and again.

I agree that theyy are accountable to us and not to Jesus.
That is why forgiveness is to us and not some third party.

How many times must the one sin be fiorgiven.

If you forgive than what is there for Jesus to forgive?

Regards
DL

All sin is not offenses to others. And again it is important to draw a distinction between an offense to others and an affront to God.

 

[GreatestIam]

I don't think my logic is faulty at all. As Jesus said, his Kingdom is not of this world, and the forgiveness he offers is not for those sins we commit against others--he was very explicit that it was our responsibility to seek forgiveness from those we have harmed. His forgiveness was to remove the penalty for breaking God's commandments, for failure to obey God's law.

He was also explicit in his parables that we have every right to hold accountable those who owe us, who wrong us, etc. And even though we may choose to forgive the other, and that is the right thing to do, we are not obligated to put ourselves into the position of allowing the other person to hurt us again and again.

I agree that theyy are accountable to us and not to Jesus.
That is why forgiveness is to us and not some third party.

How many times must the one sin be fiorgiven.

If you forgive than what is there for Jesus to forgive?

Regards
DL

All sin is not offenses to others. And again it is important to draw a distinction between an offense to others and an affront to God.

You would not be offended if you were raped?

Why would it affront God when he is the cause?

Nehemiah 13:18
Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city?

Jeremiah 19:15
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon this city and upon all her towns all the evil that I have pronounced against it,

Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Regards
DL

 

[Foxfyre]

I agree that theyy are accountable to us and not to Jesus.
That is why forgiveness is to us and not some third party.

How many times must the one sin be fiorgiven.

If you forgive than what is there for Jesus to forgive?

Regards
DL

All sin is not offenses to others. And again it is important to draw a distinction between an offense to others and an affront to God.

Why would it affront God when he is the cause?

Nehemiah 13:18
Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city?

Jeremiah 19:15
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon this city and upon all her towns all the evil that I have pronounced against it,

Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Regards
DL

There is always the dichotomy of Free Will. If God is the cause of our sin, then we have no free will but we are helpless marionettes who are characters in some sort of sadistic play. And if God is not the cause of our sin, then we have a choice to sin or not sin.

 

[laughinReaper]

[.

I do not want to get repetitious so may I ask that you read my comments above and come on back.

Regards
DL

you said in the original post" Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to the victim" and "The one sinned against has the first right of forgiveness."

I pointed out that

A. If Christ is God, and God is the one sinned against, then Jesus being God has the right to forgive because he is the one sinned against.

B. The Bible points out in quite a few places that in the case that we sin against a fellow human we should also forgive like God forgives us.

These to religious facts prove your premise incorrect. Christ forgave on behalf of God/himself being the victim,therefore he was justified in his actions. Forgiveness of humans by humans is a completely different issue but guidelines for dealing with such is given in the bible also.

 

[GreatestIam]

All sin is not offenses to others. And again it is important to draw a distinction between an offense to others and an affront to God.

Why would it affront God when he is the cause?

Nehemiah 13:18
Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city?

Jeremiah 19:15
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon this city and upon all her towns all the evil that I have pronounced against it,

Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Regards
DL

There is always the dichotomy of Free Will. If God is the cause of our sin, then we have no free will but we are helpless marionettes who are characters in some sort of sadistic play. And if God is not the cause of our sin, then we have a choice to sin or not sin.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If God makes a pot with a hole that leaks, is it the pots fault or Gods?

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

[.

I do not want to get repetitious so may I ask that you read my comments above and come on back.

Regards
DL

you said in the original post" Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to the victim" and "The one sinned against has the first right of forgiveness."

I pointed out that

A. If Christ is God, and God is the one sinned against, then Jesus being God has the right to forgive because he is the one sinned against.

I have quotes just above that show that Jesus causes the sin in the first place.
He is thus not sinned against.

No one without a swelled head would believe they can hurt a God.

B. The Bible points out in quite a few places that in the case that we sin against a fellow human we should also forgive like God forgives us.

Exactly. Forgiveness is healing and the victim needs healing. Not a God who cannot be hurt.

These to religious facts prove your premise incorrect. Christ forgave on behalf of God/himself being the victim,therefore he was justified in his actions. Forgiveness of humans by humans is a completely different issue but guidelines for dealing with such is given in the bible also.

Not so as I just showed above.

Unless you think an offence has to be forgiven more than once which would be a miscarriage of justice.

Regards
DL

 

[Foxfyre]

Why would it affront God when he is the cause?

Nehemiah 13:18
Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city?

Jeremiah 19:15
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon this city and upon all her towns all the evil that I have pronounced against it,

Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Regards
DL

There is always the dichotomy of Free Will. If God is the cause of our sin, then we have no free will but we are helpless marionettes who are characters in some sort of sadistic play. And if God is not the cause of our sin, then we have a choice to sin or not sin.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If God makes a pot with a hole that leaks, is it the pots fault or Gods?

Regards
DL

I prefer to look at it that God made a perfect pot. And we, by abusing or misuing the pot, put a hole or crack in it. Whose fault is that?

Again, if God preordained that we would abuse the pot, we have no free will. Our very discussion here is something he wrote out and is having us say. We have no say or choice in the matter whatsoever and even a concept of forgiveness is just part of a scripted play.

Or if you believe you do have a choice of whether to do good or do evil, then it is not God's fault which you choose.

 

[The Infidel]

Forgiveness in something you do for yourself as a "victim." It is the perpetrators choice whether or not to accept it.

True. That is why it is unjust for Jesus to usurp the victims right.

Regards
DL

Jesus forgiving the perp does nothing to the victim.
At that point it is no longer about the victim. It is between The Lord God and the perp.

The victim is not affected one way or another.

 

[GreatestIam]

There is always the dichotomy of Free Will. If God is the cause of our sin, then we have no free will but we are helpless marionettes who are characters in some sort of sadistic play. And if God is not the cause of our sin, then we have a choice to sin or not sin.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If God makes a pot with a hole that leaks, is it the pots fault or Gods?

Regards
DL

I prefer to look at it that God made a perfect pot. And we, by abusing or misuing the pot, put a hole or crack in it. Whose fault is that?

Again, if God preordained that we would abuse the pot, we have no free will. Our very discussion here is something he wrote out and is having us say. We have no say or choice in the matter whatsoever and even a concept of forgiveness is just part of a scripted play.

Or if you believe you do have a choice of whether to do good or do evil, then it is not God's fault which you choose.

Ok.
Let me look at it from YPOV.
God creates all things perfect.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

If we follow this scriptural analogy, then tell us how a perfect anything can somehow do what is not perfect.

If we are perfect and can somehow be corrupted, then so can God. Right?

Regards
DL

 

[hortysir]

True. That is why it is unjust for Jesus to usurp the victims right.

Regards
DL

don't worry...the victim will get it when they reach the afterlife and their eyes are opened....as will the perpetrators.

In heaven?

You must be a Universalist then.
Good. So am I. God would have it no other way. If he was real that is.

Regards
DL

Agnostic, I take it?

 

[The Infidel]

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If God makes a pot with a hole that leaks, is it the pots fault or Gods?

Regards
DL

I prefer to look at it that God made a perfect pot. And we, by abusing or misuing the pot, put a hole or crack in it. Whose fault is that?

Again, if God preordained that we would abuse the pot, we have no free will. Our very discussion here is something he wrote out and is having us say. We have no say or choice in the matter whatsoever and even a concept of forgiveness is just part of a scripted play.

Or if you believe you do have a choice of whether to do good or do evil, then it is not God's fault which you choose.

Ok.
Let me look at it from YPOV.
God creates all things perfect.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

If we follow this scriptural analogy, then tell us how a perfect anything can somehow do what is not perfect.

If we are perfect and can somehow be corrupted, then so can God. Right?

Regards
DL

No... God makes the rules. Simple as that.

He is perfect, and we are not. He knows this and is ready to forgive us of those imperfections.

Thank God, because lord knows I am imperfect. (I know its hard to believe)

 

[GreatestIam]

Forgiveness in something you do for yourself as a "victim." It is the perpetrators choice whether or not to accept it.

True. That is why it is unjust for Jesus to usurp the victims right.

Regards
DL

Jesus forgiving the perp does nothing to the victim.
At that point it is no longer about the victim. It is between The Lord God and the perp.

The victim is not affected one way or another.

Except that God caused the evil in the first place as those quotes above show and the victim is denied closure and the benefits that forgiving brings. That is unjust.

Regards
DL

 

[The Infidel]

True. That is why it is unjust for Jesus to usurp the victims right.

Regards
DL

Jesus forgiving the perp does nothing to the victim.
At that point it is no longer about the victim. It is between The Lord God and the perp.

The victim is not affected one way or another.

Except that God caused the evil in the first place as those quotes above show and the victim is denied closure and the benefits that forgiving brings. That is unjust.

Regards
DL

You dont believe in God anyway... so who cares?

 

[GreatestIam]

don't worry...the victim will get it when they reach the afterlife and their eyes are opened....as will the perpetrators.

In heaven?

You must be a Universalist then.
Good. So am I. God would have it no other way. If he was real that is.

Regards
DL

Agnostic, I take it?

No. Gnostic Christian. The Godhead I know is not the bible God.
Mine has morals while he does not. No proof of this of course except to myself.
That is always the way with apotheosis.

Regards
DL

 

[Foxfyre]

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If God makes a pot with a hole that leaks, is it the pots fault or Gods?

Regards
DL

I prefer to look at it that God made a perfect pot. And we, by abusing or misuing the pot, put a hole or crack in it. Whose fault is that?

Again, if God preordained that we would abuse the pot, we have no free will. Our very discussion here is something he wrote out and is having us say. We have no say or choice in the matter whatsoever and even a concept of forgiveness is just part of a scripted play.

Or if you believe you do have a choice of whether to do good or do evil, then it is not God's fault which you choose.

Ok.
Let me look at it from YPOV.
God creates all things perfect.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

If we follow this scriptural analogy, then tell us how a perfect anything can somehow do what is not perfect.

If we are perfect and can somehow be corrupted, then so can God. Right?

Regards
DL

I don't know. I do not presume to be wise enough, educated enough, or experienced enough to tell God what he must or must not be. I think any God small enough to be so defined by we mere mortals wouldn't be much of a God. So I leave what He is and is not to Him. I don't fault the poets and theologians of the Bible who did their damndest to define him. In my opinion, none even so much as scratched the surface of all there is to know however.

I do know that it was a comfort to the ancients and also Christians now to believe that God is in control, and no matter how badly we screw it up, He can and will accomplish his purposes.

We all have at times bought something or produced something or created something that was absolutely perfect, without flaw or blemish or error. But via our own actions, or actions of others, that something was damaged and made less than perfect.

So God may have had a choice. Make the universe into some kind of plaything to be manipulated at will, all planned in advance by Him. Or he could have placed we creatures into a perfect universe that we had capability of damaging and destroying as well as preserving and protecting, because without such capability we could not know pride, joy, exhuberance, thrill, satisfaction, love.