Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

[GreatestIam]

How lovely to swing by and post here and be completely ignored, LOL. What bliss.

I took your good words in and had no argument against.

I was busy with those less thoughtful than yourself. My bad of not acknowledging.

Please forgive.

Regards
DL

 

[logical4u]

[

The Lord was not the one that "messed" up, the people were "stuborn" and "arrogant", it was thier fault.

Then your God screwed up when he created them.

I hear that free will B S coming so here.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.

Regards
DL

The OT is full of people that would be considered "losers". It is their faith in the Lord, and His gifts to them that made them heros and great men. You sound like an immature child saying "I didn't ask to be born, entertain me and pacify me" (spoil me). The Lord's knowledge is not our knowledge. We do not know why He did the things He did, or what His plans are regarding this planet. To deny Him and His work is like going to an awesome party and pretending that someone else did not organize or pay for it. It is polite to say thank you even if you do not want to get to know the host or spend time with them.

 

[logical4u]

I think most sin is victimless if 'victim' is defined as showing visible wounds or direct harm. I don't think any sin is truly victimless, however, otherwise it would not be sin as I define sin. Sometimes sin can be nothing more than harboring unhealthy grudges or hate or resentment for somebody and being unwilling to let that go. It might be that nobody even knows that it exists other than the person, but it withers away at the person's soul and perhaps even harms him/her physically and that makes it sin.

Or maybe we pour a cup of something polluting into a lake. Quickly dissipated and undetectable. No harm, no foul, right? But over years, thousands or tens of thousands or millions of people each pouring a little pollutant into that lake will eventually change its chemistry and make the water into something harmful to drink or use for other purposes. So we can't say there was no vicitim. The act was a tiny sin but there are long term consequences to others, perhaps long after we are gone.

The Bible instructs us that we have all fallen short and there are none without sin. By God's grace he offered himself up as the human sacrifice to pay our penalty for sin, that for which we know to ask forgiveness, and that we don't yet know was sin. Were we able to perfectly align ourselves to the will of God and choose only what He wants, there would be no sin and we would not spoil His perfect creation. But since none of us are God, we need His grace and His forgiveness.

And for that you are willing to sell your soul to Satan by embracing a God who had his son needlessly murdered to form an immoral religion based on barbaric human sacrifice.

Regards
DL

The "sacrifice" was not the murder of Yeshua's physical body. The "sacrifice" was Yeshua actually being "dead" for 3 days. There was no "barbaric human sacrifice". There was a ruthless, cruel death that was commonly done in those days. There is a great deal of evidence that thousands were crucified during Roman rule.
Human sacrifice was done to other gods. Mollech (now going by the name of abortion) was symbolized by a metal god where children would be burned alive as their parents partied. Baal, and some of the other gods also had humans sacrificed to them. There is no evidence that the Lord ever had a human "sacrificed" to Him in the OT or the NT. With Abraham, a ritual was requested, and then it was explained that human sacrifice would never be necessary with the Lord, and His covenant would be lasting.
Did you go to a gov't school and not comprehend the Bible?

 

[logical4u]

[

You are confused he is so righteous that all sin has to have atonement. God sacrficed himself for that atonement, Not someone else.

You think human sacrifice is moral do you?

Even as it goes against your scriptures.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Psalm 49:7

None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:


It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women.
They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8EYIIR3g&feature=related]Women Part 1 - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dspWh9g3hU&feature=related]Women Part 2 - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c0RFxXrYzg&feature=related]Holy Bible - Epic Fail - YouTube[/ame]

Regards
DL

He is the Creator. It is possible that He "knew" that people needed a choice. It is possible He "knew" that without sin (adversity), we would die, spiritually. Love how you think you are knowledgeable compared to the Almighty, that developed cell structure and all the critters that populate the earth, both physical and spiritual. When you are on your knees in front of Him at the Judgement, you can play this game with Him. You are not impressing any that can look at this earth and know that it was "designed" not accidentally made. It sounds like you are angry about your life and are choosing to reject the only One that can help.

 

[logical4u]

[q

No doing evil things is not taught it just comes naturally because of our imperfections. Do you think hitler was taught to be a murderer by his parents ?

Are you not a product of your environment and upbringing?

So was Hitler.

Regards
DL

A product of your environment? What a cowardly way to deal with life. How many people were abused, and "chose" to rise above that type of behavior? How many went on to become pillars of society where all that know them feel safe in their company? How many spoiled children grew up and decided to do charitable works with their inheritance? Each person has a choice/many choices. They choose to walk toward the Light, or not.

 

[logical4u]

[

Adversity makes a person better and stronger.

If so then what does God do with all those better supermen in hell?

Regards
DL

How do you know they are in hell? Only one is the Judge, and Judgement Day has not happened.

 

[logical4u]

[

Sometimes,but some go to far with their evil.

Led far unless your God made them that way.

Your bible does say that God hates some while still in the womb so i8f some are just evil, they are what he created them to be.

No free will B S can take away God's culpability.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.

Regards
DL

Yes! Sin is dominant! It is only thru the grace given to us by the Lord that allows us to overcome sin. It is only by His assistance that we can achieve spiritual maturity (Sin less).

 

[GreatestIam]

[

The OT is full of people that would be considered "losers". It is their faith in the Lord, and His gifts to them that made them heros and great men. You sound like an immature child saying "I didn't ask to be born, entertain me and pacify me" (spoil me). The Lord's knowledge is not our knowledge. We do not know why He did the things He did, or what His plans are regarding this planet. To deny Him and His work is like going to an awesome party and pretending that someone else did not organize or pay for it. It is polite to say thank you even if you do not want to get to know the host or spend time with them.

All men are willing to do just that but your absentee super God ain't around.
The host left the building a long time ago and only soft minded literalists and fundamentals expect him back. The rest of us are brighter than that.

My next O P actually speaks to that. have a look.

A reply to the immorality of religions.

No religion is perfect. This is recognized by those in the Abrahamic cults and this is why over time, religions have clashed. The Jewish God was seen as inferior to the Christians. The Christian God was seen as inferior to the Islamic God. All the various Gods were then seen as inferior to the Gnostics. The Gnostic God has no equal and this is why a God based on knowledge was considered superior. It is an irrefutable God as it is based on knowledge as opposed to opinion and speculation because it is based on a hard belief based on provable concepts and true Gnosis or knowledge and understanding of truth. Gnosticism is a religion based on logic and reason as opposed to revelation and human sacrific like the base of Christianity and Islam. It has it’s own gospels that it does not read literally and some Gnostic Christians like myself use the Christian cult to further spiritual and moral thinking to create our own version of God. We believe that God resides in all of us. This reliance on logic and reason has clashed and will always clash with the revealed religions.

Martin Luther
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”

The Pharmacratic Inquisition DVD Part 1 of 12 [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnvEHObMMH4]The Pharmacratic Inquisition DVD Part 1 of 12 - YouTube[/ame]

Gnosticism almost died out because people forgot that their religions were all based on myths. Literalists and fundamentals now dirty the waters of all religions and wars of the Gods are responsible for probably half of all wars today.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez6wfJWVCeI&feature=player_embedded]God Wills It! - YouTube[/ame]

A minority of Christian and Islamic people within the various cults have become fundamental in their view of their myths. They believe them to be true and have fallen to belief in fantasy, miracles and magic. This without a shred of evidence or reasoned apologetics to show.

Apotheosis has made me as fundamental to my belief as other fundamentals and literalists. From my position of knowledge or Gnosis, I recognize how damaging fundamentals and literalists can be to their parent religions. Religions, even as culture and tradition increases the numbers of cultists are losing the hearts and minds of the upcoming generations. They will die out if they do not return to recognition that all religions are based on myths. We should be taking our examples from the non-Abrahamic Eastern religions.

I urge the more intelligent left wing of all religions to actively fight what I show below because if you do not, your religion will fail and this to me would be a loss to all of society. I also urge the more intelligent in the right wings to think of what you are doing to your religion in terms of harm.

This shows how fundamentals make all of us who are spiritual a laughing stock.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HKHaClUCw4&feature=PlayList&p=5123864A5243470E&index=0&playnext=1]Religulous [part 1] - YouTube[/ame]

This shows fundamentals indoctrinating and brainwashing their own children.
Jesus Camp 1of 9
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBv8tv62yGM]Jesus Camp 1of 9.flv - YouTube[/ame]

This shows African children being abused and killed as witches
African witches and Jesus
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRqrGHA-Azs]Channel 4 - Witch Child Documentary - YouTube[/ame]

This shows a Western Christian church funding and promoting death to Gays.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMw2Zg_BVzw&feature=related]Rachel Maddow interviews David Bahati - Part 1 - YouTube[/ame]

This shows right wing suicide at the political level.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iMBUoxLOmA]Republicans, Get In My Vagina!.flv - YouTube[/ame]

It seems that many have forgotten the first principle of morality. Harm/care of children. TED Blog | The real difference between liberals and conservatives: Jonathan Haidt on TED.com

Should the left side of religions reign in their right wing fundamental and literalist brothers to stabilize and grow spirituality and perhaps halt the exodus and eventual demise of their religions and promote the forgotten notion and truth that all religions are myths?

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

I have one thing only to say to the preachers here.

Stay with your God.
He like you just where you are in front of him.

Photo Album - Imgur

 

[logical4u]

[

The OT is full of people that would be considered "losers". It is their faith in the Lord, and His gifts to them that made them heros and great men. You sound like an immature child saying "I didn't ask to be born, entertain me and pacify me" (spoil me). The Lord's knowledge is not our knowledge. We do not know why He did the things He did, or what His plans are regarding this planet. To deny Him and His work is like going to an awesome party and pretending that someone else did not organize or pay for it. It is polite to say thank you even if you do not want to get to know the host or spend time with them.

All men are willing to do just that but your absentee super God ain't around.
The host left the building a long time ago and only soft minded literalists and fundamentals expect him back. The rest of us are brighter than that.

My next O P actually speaks to that. have a look.

A reply to the immorality of religions.

No religion is perfect. This is recognized by those in the Abrahamic cults and this is why over time, religions have clashed. The Jewish God was seen as inferior to the Christians. The Christian God was seen as inferior to the Islamic God. All the various Gods were then seen as inferior to the Gnostics. The Gnostic God has no equal and this is why a God based on knowledge was considered superior. It is an irrefutable God as it is based on knowledge as opposed to opinion and speculation because it is based on a hard belief based on provable concepts and true Gnosis or knowledge and understanding of truth. Gnosticism is a religion based on logic and reason as opposed to revelation and human sacrific like the base of Christianity and Islam. It has it’s own gospels that it does not read literally and some Gnostic Christians like myself use the Christian cult to further spiritual and moral thinking to create our own version of God. We believe that God resides in all of us. This reliance on logic and reason has clashed and will always clash with the revealed religions.

Martin Luther
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”

The Pharmacratic Inquisition DVD Part 1 of 12 [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnvEHObMMH4]The Pharmacratic Inquisition DVD Part 1 of 12 - YouTube[/ame]

Gnosticism almost died out because people forgot that their religions were all based on myths. Literalists and fundamentals now dirty the waters of all religions and wars of the Gods are responsible for probably half of all wars today.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez6wfJWVCeI&feature=player_embedded]God Wills It! - YouTube[/ame]

A minority of Christian and Islamic people within the various cults have become fundamental in their view of their myths. They believe them to be true and have fallen to belief in fantasy, miracles and magic. This without a shred of evidence or reasoned apologetics to show.

Apotheosis has made me as fundamental to my belief as other fundamentals and literalists. From my position of knowledge or Gnosis, I recognize how damaging fundamentals and literalists can be to their parent religions. Religions, even as culture and tradition increases the numbers of cultists are losing the hearts and minds of the upcoming generations. They will die out if they do not return to recognition that all religions are based on myths. We should be taking our examples from the non-Abrahamic Eastern religions.

I urge the more intelligent left wing of all religions to actively fight what I show below because if you do not, your religion will fail and this to me would be a loss to all of society. I also urge the more intelligent in the right wings to think of what you are doing to your religion in terms of harm.

This shows how fundamentals make all of us who are spiritual a laughing stock.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HKHaClUCw4&feature=PlayList&p=5123864A5243470E&index=0&playnext=1]Religulous [part 1] - YouTube[/ame]

This shows fundamentals indoctrinating and brainwashing their own children.
Jesus Camp 1of 9
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBv8tv62yGM]Jesus Camp 1of 9.flv - YouTube[/ame]

This shows African children being abused and killed as witches
African witches and Jesus
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRqrGHA-Azs]Channel 4 - Witch Child Documentary - YouTube[/ame]

This shows a Western Christian church funding and promoting death to Gays.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMw2Zg_BVzw&feature=related]Rachel Maddow interviews David Bahati - Part 1 - YouTube[/ame]

This shows right wing suicide at the political level.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iMBUoxLOmA]Republicans, Get In My Vagina!.flv - YouTube[/ame]

It seems that many have forgotten the first principle of morality. Harm/care of children. TED Blog | The real difference between liberals and conservatives: Jonathan Haidt on TED.com

Should the left side of religions reign in their right wing fundamental and literalist brothers to stabilize and grow spirituality and perhaps halt the exodus and eventual demise of their religions and promote the forgotten notion and truth that all religions are myths?

Regards
DL

The Lord is "perfect". The religion is practiced by men. Men are NOT "perfect". Therefore no religious institution can be "perfect". Faith in the Lord can lead to gifts from the Holy Spirit that help people, near "perfection".

All people are vulnerable to temptation. We are warned how seductive Satan is, and told, given enough time, every person would fall under his power.

Logic and reason are easy to manipulate (it is how wars are started). Only the knowledge of right and wrong (the 10 Commandants) is written on men's hearts. Men that believe men have the power of destiny are interested in controlling other people, and not self-improvement (the real purpose of any religion, though not necessarily sought after by all members). EVERY time men believe that "men" have the power to control others, the end is a total stain. There can be no other outcome.

Religion is abused. Replacing it with a tyrant or dictator (that has no wisdom) is the darkest evil replacing an imperfect (religion) system that can be corrected, and is by people that believe improving yourself (through the eyes of the Lord), helps not only you, the individual, but everyone around you (your family, your community, your city, your county, your state, your country, your earth). Tyrants only improve their own lives and those that "worship" them (for a short time). This is extremely obvious for anyone that wants to see. Recent history is full of examples and you can see countries today experiencing hardships thanks to people believing "men" control their destiny. The promises have been broken and their faith has turned to desperation; here comes chaos.

As for women and their vaginas: if they don't want the gov't in their vaginas, don't agree to gov't healthcare (your vagina and all its medical history will be placed into medical records accessable by thousands of medical facilities and gov't offices (and anyone that works there). If you want the public to pay for medical proceedures, you need to understand that you are giving up your rights to privacy for "assistance" in paying for healthcare. Also, if women were so concerned about what was in their vaginas, why would they agree to have sex with a person they did not want to "father" their child? Why would they lay down with a person, knowing that a child might result? Why would they knowingly murder a child that was conceived as a result of a "choice" they already made? For women that are willing to let a lot of things into their vagina, why do they only want to protest the one thing that makes them fully aware of the crime (against their child) they are about to commit?

 

[Cammmpbell]

Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

Sin, by it’s very nature must have a victim. Without a victim, there is no sin.

The one sinned against has the first right of forgiveness.

If Jesus usurps that right then I think it would be unjust.

Closure is being denied the victim thus victimizing is twofold.

Jesus would not condone such a thing.

Secular law now demands a victim assessment report before sentence is given.

To think that Jesus would ignore this requirement is unthinkable.

This means that, “Why have you forsaken me? “, is answered by God with; because what you do is immoral. You deny the victim her or his rights. It is also unjust to punish the innocent instead of the guilty. In fact, that notion is insane.

In the scenario shown here the victim is ignored thus showing the flaw in the judge’s ruling, if he accepts substitutionary atonement.

Richard Dawkins schools Howard Conder on morality - YouTube

Regards
DL

The thing I've always been fascinated by is that the Mafia will do a major hit on one night and go to Catholic confession the next...'course they always donate a part of their crooked money to the church

 

[Youwerecreated]

How lovely to swing by and post here and be completely ignored, LOL. What bliss.

I took your good words in and had no argument against.

I was busy with those less thoughtful than yourself. My bad of not acknowledging.

Please forgive.

Regards
DL

If Jesus didn't forgive sin we would all be no more.

Sin is not just an offense agains't someone else. But every sin is an offense agains't God.

 

[bayoubill]

Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

Sin, by it’s very nature must have a victim. Without a victim, there is no sin.

The one sinned against has the first right of forgiveness.

If Jesus usurps that right then I think it would be unjust.

Closure is being denied the victim thus victimizing is twofold.

Jesus would not condone such a thing.

Secular law now demands a victim assessment report before sentence is given.

To think that Jesus would ignore this requirement is unthinkable.

This means that, “Why have you forsaken me? “, is answered by God with; because what you do is immoral. You deny the victim her or his rights. It is also unjust to punish the innocent instead of the guilty. In fact, that notion is insane.

In the scenario shown here the victim is ignored thus showing the flaw in the judge’s ruling, if he accepts substitutionary atonement.

Richard Dawkins schools Howard Conder on morality - YouTube

Regards
DL

often, the transgression is not against another, but rather against one's self...

 

[Youwerecreated]

Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

Sin, by it’s very nature must have a victim. Without a victim, there is no sin.

The one sinned against has the first right of forgiveness.

If Jesus usurps that right then I think it would be unjust.

Closure is being denied the victim thus victimizing is twofold.

Jesus would not condone such a thing.

Secular law now demands a victim assessment report before sentence is given.

To think that Jesus would ignore this requirement is unthinkable.

This means that, “Why have you forsaken me? “, is answered by God with; because what you do is immoral. You deny the victim her or his rights. It is also unjust to punish the innocent instead of the guilty. In fact, that notion is insane.

In the scenario shown here the victim is ignored thus showing the flaw in the judge’s ruling, if he accepts substitutionary atonement.

Richard Dawkins schools Howard Conder on morality - YouTube

Regards
DL

The thing I've always been fascinated by is that the Mafia will do a major hit on one night and go to Catholic confession the next...'course they always donate a part of their crooked money to the church

Not all who cast out demons will be saved,not even you can spin this.

Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruits, nor can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Therefore by their fruits you shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord! Lord! shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!

 

[GreatestIam]

How lovely to swing by and post here and be completely ignored, LOL. What bliss.

I took your good words in and had no argument against.

I was busy with those less thoughtful than yourself. My bad of not acknowledging.

Please forgive.

Regards
DL

If Jesus didn't forgive sin we would all be no more.

Sin is not just an offense agains't someone else. But every sin is an offense agains't God.

Some think they can hurt God.



Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

Sin, by it’s very nature must have a victim. Without a victim, there is no sin.

The one sinned against has the first right of forgiveness.

If Jesus usurps that right then I think it would be unjust.

Closure is being denied the victim thus victimizing is twofold.

Jesus would not condone such a thing.

Secular law now demands a victim assessment report before sentence is given.

To think that Jesus would ignore this requirement is unthinkable.

This means that, “Why have you forsaken me? “, is answered by God with; because what you do is immoral. You deny the victim her or his rights. It is also unjust to punish the innocent instead of the guilty. In fact, that notion is insane.

In the scenario shown here the victim is ignored thus showing the flaw in the judge’s ruling, if he accepts substitutionary atonement.

Richard Dawkins schools Howard Conder on morality - YouTube

Regards
DL

often, the transgression is not against another, but rather against one's self...

I am always quick to forgive myself for what I do to myself.
Aren't we all that way?

Regards
DL

 

[Newby]

True. To protect others.
In the case of Jesus forgiving, the perpetrator walks.

That is not justice.

Regards
DL

i don't believe that's true at all. forgiveness concerns the spirit. no one ever said that thieves and murderers should go free because they're 'forgiven' spiritually. Think of it the same was as you would paying one's debt to society.

But interesting misstatement.

And just when is the victim to get her spiritual gift of her forgiving when it has been usurped by Jesus?

Jesus does say that thieves and murderers will go free regardless of being forgiven by the criminal.

Have you forgotten his conversation and promise to the thief he was crucified beside.

Did his victim get closure when she cannot forgive what Jesus already forgave?

Regards
DL

2 Peter both answers your questions and gives a good description of you as well.

2 Peter 2
New International Version (NIV)

False Teachers and Their Destruction

2 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them —bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh[c] and despise authority.

Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from[d] the Lord. 12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.

13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.[e] 14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed —an accursed brood! 15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer,[f] who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

 

[Buford]

i don't believe that's true at all. forgiveness concerns the spirit. no one ever said that thieves and murderers should go free because they're 'forgiven' spiritually. Think of it the same was as you would paying one's debt to society.

But interesting misstatement.

And just when is the victim to get her spiritual gift of her forgiving when it has been usurped by Jesus?

Jesus does say that thieves and murderers will go free regardless of being forgiven by the criminal.

Have you forgotten his conversation and promise to the thief he was crucified beside.

Did his victim get closure when she cannot forgive what Jesus already forgave?

Regards
DL

2 Peter both answers your questions and gives a good description of you as well.

2 Peter 2
New International Version (NIV)

False Teachers and Their Destruction

2 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them —bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh[c] and despise authority.

Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from[d] the Lord. 12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.

13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.[e] 14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed —an accursed brood! 15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer,[f] who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

False teachers have a very hard and short time with students of the scripture.