Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

GreatestIam

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Jan 12, 2012
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Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

Sin, by it’s very nature must have a victim. Without a victim, there is no sin.

The one sinned against has the first right of forgiveness.

If Jesus usurps that right then I think it would be unjust.

Closure is being denied the victim thus victimizing is twofold.

Jesus would not condone such a thing.

Secular law now demands a victim assessment report before sentence is given.

To think that Jesus would ignore this requirement is unthinkable.

This means that, “Why have you forsaken me? “, is answered by God with; because what you do is immoral. You deny the victim her or his rights. It is also unjust to punish the innocent instead of the guilty. In fact, that notion is insane.

In the scenario shown here the victim is ignored thus showing the flaw in the judge’s ruling, if he accepts substitutionary atonement.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqP_fjBkwxc&feature=related]Richard Dawkins schools Howard Conder on morality - YouTube[/ame]

Regards
DL
 
Forgiveness in something you do for yourself as a "victim." It is the perpetrators choice whether or not to accept it.
 
I'm a non-believer and this seems silly to me.

Jesus forgiving a sinner doesn't mean the person sinned against has to, he/she should forgive but doesn't have to.
 
Jesus restores that which the perpetrator took from the victim. He paid the price of Justice with His blood. He has every right to forgive the sinner. The greater sin is not forgiving them.
 
Forgiveness in something you do for yourself as a "victim." It is the perpetrators choice whether or not to accept it.

True. That is why it is unjust for Jesus to usurp the victims right.

Regards
DL
 
I'm a non-believer and this seems silly to me.

Jesus forgiving a sinner doesn't mean the person sinned against has to, he/she should forgive but doesn't have to.

Correct.
It is the victim that must learn and benefit from forgiving.
Not someone who has not been hurt.

Regards
DL
 
Jesus restores that which the perpetrator took from the victim. He paid the price of Justice with His blood. He has every right to forgive the sinner. The greater sin is not forgiving them.

It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women.
They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8EYIIR3g&feature=related]Women Part 1 - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dspWh9g3hU&feature=related]Women Part 2 - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c0RFxXrYzg&feature=related]Holy Bible - Epic Fail - YouTube[/ame]

Regards
DL
 
Forgiveness in something you do for yourself as a "victim." It is the perpetrators choice whether or not to accept it.

True. That is why it is unjust for Jesus to usurp the victims right.

Regards
DL
don't worry...the victim will get it when they reach the afterlife and their eyes are opened....as will the perpetrators.

In heaven?

You must be a Universalist then.
Good. So am I. God would have it no other way. If he was real that is.

Regards
DL
 
You can forgive someone and still throw his ass in jail.

Don't confuse "forgiveness" with "justice".

True. To protect others.
In the case of Jesus forgiving, the perpetrator walks.

That is not justice.

Regards
DL

i don't believe that's true at all. forgiveness concerns the spirit. no one ever said that thieves and murderers should go free because they're 'forgiven' spiritually. Think of it the same was as you would paying one's debt to society.

But interesting misstatement.
 
Forgiveness is not holding the other person responsible to make you whole. It is accepting the consequences of whatever the other person did and not requiring anything of them as repayment for their 'sin'. And as Jesus said to forgive from the heart, it is also not continuing to punish them but letting it go.

It is not our prerogative to forgive somebody for what they did to somebody else.
 
The idea of an abstract entity "forgiving" someone doesn't make sense to me. It sound's like you think "God" is a personality that "does" things.

That opposes the idea of God as Being.

Forgiveness happens inside the person who feels wronged. It's a letting go, an opening up.
 
Jesus restores that which the perpetrator took from the victim. He paid the price of Justice with His blood. He has every right to forgive the sinner. The greater sin is not forgiving them.

It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

Regards
DL

Only if you misinterpret the corruption of Christianity as being the Foundation of Christianity.
I see the story of Adam and Eve as metaphor/allegory as a beginning of an on-going explanation of why things are the way they are, one that intermittantly continues throughout the scriptures. God did not forgive the sin of Adam and Eve or Cain but imposed the penalty of sin upon them. Thus a teaching that there are consequences for sin. And there is also the theme that God redeems those who recognize and seek forgiveness for their sin.

The teaching continues throughout scripture in a repeating motif of creation, sin, judgment, redemption.

And what kind of God gives his son up for sacrifice? It is an amazing thing once you realize that God is the Son, and the Son is God, and the sacrifice a supreme sacrifice of God taking our sin upon himself so that we could seek forgiveness and would not be held accountable for our sins against God.

That does not suppose no consequence of sin, however, as all sin, intentional and unintentional, spoils a bit of God's perfect cration. And that is why sin is bad and why God is against it.
 
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Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

Sin, by it’s very nature must have a victim. Without a victim, there is no sin.

The one sinned against has the first right of forgiveness.

If Jesus usurps that right then I think it would be unjust.

Closure is being denied the victim thus victimizing is twofold.

Jesus would not condone such a thing.

Secular law now demands a victim assessment report before sentence is given.

To think that Jesus would ignore this requirement is unthinkable.

This means that, “Why have you forsaken me? “, is answered by God with; because what you do is immoral. You deny the victim her or his rights. It is also unjust to punish the innocent instead of the guilty. In fact, that notion is insane.

In the scenario shown here the victim is ignored thus showing the flaw in the judge’s ruling, if he accepts substitutionary atonement.

Richard Dawkins schools Howard Conder on morality - YouTube

Regards
DL
God is the victim refered to here. Sin is the breaking of Gods rules ,hence Jesus who is God made man, can forgive Sin . If you break man's rules then you need to appologize to the one you offended.

Mathew 6:

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


You will notice that in the Lords Prayer and in the following scriptures Jesus mentions the importance of people forgiving other people saying if you fail to forgive, you will not be forgiven by God The Father. In the OT guidlines are also layed out for such things as Mosaic law says that if you have a dispute with your brother then you go to him first to settle it before going to anyone else.

Bibles also says in Ephesians 4:
24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

25 Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26 “In your anger do not sin”[d]: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27 and do not give the devil a foothold. 28 Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.

29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.




It starts with don't sin in anger and not to let the sun go down on your anger and ends with forgivness. NT deals quite a bit with forgiveness of others and being forgiven yourself. Jesus in no way maginalized forgiveness by forgiving sin.
 
You can forgive someone and still throw his ass in jail.

Don't confuse "forgiveness" with "justice".

True. To protect others.
In the case of Jesus forgiving, the perpetrator walks.

That is not justice.

Regards
DL

i don't believe that's true at all. forgiveness concerns the spirit. no one ever said that thieves and murderers should go free because they're 'forgiven' spiritually. Think of it the same was as you would paying one's debt to society.

But interesting misstatement.

And just when is the victim to get her spiritual gift of her forgiving when it has been usurped by Jesus?

Jesus does say that thieves and murderers will go free regardless of being forgiven by the criminal.

Have you forgotten his conversation and promise to the thief he was crucified beside.

Did his victim get closure when she cannot forgive what Jesus already forgave?

Regards
DL
 
True. To protect others.
In the case of Jesus forgiving, the perpetrator walks.

That is not justice.

Regards
DL

i don't believe that's true at all. forgiveness concerns the spirit. no one ever said that thieves and murderers should go free because they're 'forgiven' spiritually. Think of it the same was as you would paying one's debt to society.

But interesting misstatement.

And just when is the victim to get her spiritual gift of her forgiving when it has been usurped by Jesus?

Jesus does say that thieves and murderers will go free regardless of being forgiven by the criminal.

Have you forgotten his conversation and promise to the thief he was crucified beside.

Did his victim get closure when she cannot forgive what Jesus already forgave?

Regards
DL

i'm not a christian. but i think you're mixing apples and oranges intentionally.
 
Forgiveness is not holding the other person responsible to make you whole. It is accepting the consequences of whatever the other person did and not requiring anything of them as repayment for their 'sin'. And as Jesus said to forgive from the heart, it is also not continuing to punish them but letting it go.

It is not our prerogative to forgive somebody for what they did to somebody else.

Exactly.
It is the victim's preogative to forgive. Not anyone else and not Jesus'.

Your conclusion is correct even as your logic trail above it was faulty.

Regards
DL
 
The idea of an abstract entity "forgiving" someone doesn't make sense to me. It sound's like you think "God" is a personality that "does" things.

That opposes the idea of God as Being.

Forgiveness happens inside the person who feels wronged. It's a letting go, an opening up.

Well put.

Regards
DL
 

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