Jeremiah v CMike: Jesus the Jewish Messiah or Jewish/Christian God

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  1. Book of Jeremiah
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  2. CMike
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    CMike Zionist, proud to be

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    I didn't get to all your points. I will though. Time.
     
  3. Book of Jeremiah
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  4. Book of Jeremiah
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    In concluding my part of presentation, Mike, I feel we are both winners. We both believe in G-d of Israel although we differ on who the Messiah is. We are both blessed because we support Israel and believe in her right to exist like any other nation in the world. We are both winners in my book.

    Note* I cannot concede that there isn't any evidence of Jesus in prophecy because I see Him throughout as I have shared in this debate. However, I fully respect that you, Mike, do not see it and I believe you are sincere in your stating that. - Jeremiah
     
  5. CMike
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    CMike Zionist, proud to be

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    Quote: Originally Posted by CMike
    Hi Jeri,

    Thank you for your thoughtful responses.

    -------------------------------------
    Thank you, Mike.

    -------------------------------------

    Genesis 1:26

    26. And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth."

    Who was G-D talking to? He was talking to the angels.

    -------------------------------------
    reply from Jeri-
    This presents a problem for me because of the content of the scripture. Let US make Man in OUR image. Angels are not created in the image of G-d. Not according to the scriptures that describe angelic beings. Referring to Ezekiels visions and Isaiahs. Not to mention that G-d doesn't share His Glory with anyone even angelic beings. He said he wouldn't share His Glory and that we should not touch it.

    Where exactly did G-D say he doesn't share his glory?
    --------------------------------
    Jews learn a lesson in this. That when you do something you should share credit. A lot of the Torah teaches moral lessons.
    ---------------------------------
    reply from Jeri:
    Yes, and I agree with the teachings of the Torah. I've learned more from the Jews about the Torah than I ever could have from a Pastor. There is a mystical element to the Torah in my opinion the book is Divine. It is the Holy Word of G-d. But G-d sharing credit for the creation of man with angels? I think I find it easier to believe he was conversing with Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

    Based on the Torah, G-D said that there is only him. Therefore, based on what G-D said there is no jesus or holy separate. G-D said he is one.
    --------------------------------------
    Let's say you are a salesman with a secretary, and you say "we just landed the Miller account". It's you that actually closed the deal, however, being a nice fellow you share the credit.
    ---------------------------------------
    reply from Jeri:

    You don't have to convince me, Mike! I am a prospector who believes in the beauty of networking and credit sharing! It is a good mitzvah. Is that the right word? Good deed?

    However, G-D made it clear that it was only him that did the creating.
    -------------------------------
    reply from Jeri
    Now this is where I'm lost, Mike.


    If he is speaking to angels as you say and he said Let US create man in Our image then he is inviting someone to assist him in Creating mankind. I would be more persuaded to believe it was Jesus and the Holy Spirit he was speaking to.
    --------------------------------------------------

    27. And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.



    It says G-D created man. Not G-D and jesus, not G-D and "The World". Just G-D. It's only G-D that does the creating.

    Jeri replies: Then who is US and OUR in verse 26?

    The angels

    "Now lets look at His Spoken Word which is how God created - see Genesis 1: 3 And God said, Let there be light. God spoke the Word at the time of creation in Genesis 1. Who is the Word? That is the question in this debate. Who is He? Is He the Jewish Messiah? Why do Christians call him The Word? In the first chapter of John in the New Testament which is the second half of the bible we read this: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made and without him nothing has been made. In him was the life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it."


    3. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

    4. And God saw the light that it was good, and God separated between the light and between the darkness.


    And I am unsure why you are saying "The Word" is some seperate entity based on the Torah. Where do you see that exactly?
    -----------------------------------
    Jeri replies:
    I don't. God SPOKE - His creative power was in the WORD he SPOKE. It aligns perfectly with John Chapter one .......In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. All things were created by Him and nothing was made without Him. This is referring to Jesus Christ. Known as the Word.

    If you speak is what you are saying a separate entity?

    No, which is why Gods Word is living and a part of Him. We refer to the Word as Jesus but you do not. ( as a Jewish person )

    No I don't. If you are speaking, do the words that come out of your mouth become a seperate entity?

    Speaking was the way G-D conveyed the message.


    I do not get the creation regarding wha he says.

    The Word Spoken was the Order so to speak and the power behind the creation was the Holy Spirit.
    -------------------------------------------
    "Let's stop there. In the book of John in the New Testament, John is telling the reader that the Word that created what God spoke was Jesus. The power behind the Word --> Jesus<-- that God Spoke was the Spirit of God. Therein God in 3 distinct parts, roles of the Godhead. G-d the Father, G-d the Son, G-d the Holy Spirit. This is why God says in Genesis 1:26 Let US make man in OUR image and in OUR likeness"

    However, the very next sentence said G-D created man.

    But G-D said that he wasn't in parts. He said he was one.

    The problem with that is that G-D disagrees. He made it pretty clear that it was only him, didn't he in this sentence?

    "Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut) "

    G-D says he is one. Not one in separate parts. He is "One."
    -----------------------------------------------------
    Jeremiah replies:
    True and we don't walk around saying I am a spirit who sent my body to the store today because my Soul commanded it to. We are a trichotomy but we do not refer to ourselves in three parts and neither does G-d. Nevertheless, we are body, spirit and soul and as a Christian I believe God is G-d the Father ( you are his first children ) G-d the Son - Jesus - G-d the Holy Spirit - the distinctive roles, God walked with Adam in the cool of the day.. then Jesus comes to earth and dwells among us, then Jesus ascends to heaven but what does he promise first? The Holy Spirit. He is sending the Comforter. This is the Spirit of God that dwells within the believers on the earth today. This is why Christians refer to their bodies as the temple of the Holy Spirit. This is why we also say to be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD. It is our spirit and soul that will be present before G-d. Not our body that will return to the dust.

    I will say that I understand your beliefs. But based on my religion I disagree with them.

    Jesus said that he prayed to god, and that you have go through him to get to god. He made himself a seperate entity.
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    I agree with you, He said He was the Son of God.
    Another passage

    I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)

    I can post at least 20 different passages where G-D says there is only him, and no other G-D in any form.
    --------------------------------
    Jeri replies:
    And I would agree with every single one of them. G-d is One. There is only One G-d.
    --------------------------------
    I understand your point that christians consider jesus and god to be one.

    They are still seperate entities.

    No more than you and I having a makeup of spirit - body - soul - though. We are each counted as one. Speaking of which when you married your wife didn't you become One with her according to the Bible? One Flesh? The new testament teaches that the marriage between man and woman is representation of marriage of Christ to the Church.

    However, my body doesn't pray to my soul. My soul doesn't pray to my spirit. Jesus said he prayed to god, acknowledging he is a seperate entity.
    ---------------------------------
    Jeri replies:
    I believe Jesus said it best when he prayed that G-d would make them One even as He and the Father were One. One as in Unity. In Union with each other.

    We can say that as a nation we are all one. However, we are still made up of about three hundred million entities.

    Jeri replies: true
    -------------------------------------
    However, jesus himself said he prayed to G-D. He said you have to go through him to get to G-D. Jesus made it clear that he considered himself a seperate entity.
    -------------------------------------
    reply from Jeri:

    That is correct. When I pray to G-d of Israel I pray in the name of Jesus Christ but I am addressing G-d of Israel. My heavenly Father. The Holy Spirit helps me to pray because on my own I would not know what to pray for. He is my guide on getting the Mind of G-d on a matter so to speak. In my faith of Christianity.

    You just said yourself that you pray in the nameof jesus, but to G-D. Therefore, 1+1=2
    ---------------------------------
    Yes, because I do. I pray to G-d of Israel in Jesus name. That is how I've always prayed.
    reply from Jeri:

    "Addressing your second point, Mike. While I agree with you that some of these prophecies haven't been fulfilled yet, I can give you 300 prophecies that have been fulfilled and meet the requirements of Messiah. Jesus meets every single one. ( there are over 300 but for the sake of time... 300 should be sufficient ) We are not at the end here yet so obviously some things have not yet been fulfilled but will be."

    The only prophesies he fulfilled is that he wrote a donkey and he was born in Bethlehem.

    Other than that he didn't fulfill the prophesies.
    ----------------------------------------
    reply from Jeri:
    I've put the first set up of the prophecies of his birth but I have yet to post the prophecies concerning his ministry on earth or his death and resurrection. You may find some New Testament scriptures to be vague and not accept that as validation of a fulfillment of prophecy. That is fine. I am just offering what I think might give reason to investigate it further. Of course, there is the matter of the New Testament and verifying it as a valid source to base history from, etc. I have thought about that too.

    The prophesies of his birth are based on incorrect translations. The messiah will be born from a young woman, not a virgin based on the actual text.

    You are right I don't consider the NT interpretation to be valid.


    It is true. Posting them from the NT really wouldn't mean much to me.
    That is what I was afraid of.

    The point of having the prophesy is that we would know who the messiah is. There is a test. Jesus didn't meet it.

    In fact, when the messiah comes, the temple in jerusalem is to be rebuilt and stand forever. Instead the opposite occurred. The temple in jerusalem was destroyed shortly after jesus' execution. The opposite of the prophesy occurred.
    ------------------------------------------------
    reply from Jeri:
    Hold that thought. I will share something later about exactly what Jesus did prophesy concerning the temple.

    Will do.

    I posted answer to that one on separate post, Mike.

    "In my next reponse I will begin to go into detail of each one but in the work and person of Jesus Christ there is a fulfillment of the Levitical Feasts ( Leviticus 23 ) which I can list here for you now:

    Passover ( april ) - Death of Christ ( 1 Corinthian 5 : 7 ) fulfilled in New testament
    Unleavened bread ( april ) Holy Walk ( 1 Corinthians 5: 8 )
    First Fruits ( april ) Resurrection ( 1 Corinthians 15:23 )
    Pentacost ( June ) Outpouring of the Holy Spirit ( Acts 1: 5 and 2: 4 )
    Trumpets ( Sept ) Israel's regathering ( Matthew 24: 31 )
    Atonement ( Sept ) Cleansing by Christ (Romans 11: 26 )
    Tabernacles ( Sept ) Rest and Reunion with Christ ( Zechariah 14: 16 - 18 ) "

    I am not sure what you mean by "fulfilled"? The commandments are not supposed to be "fulfilled. G-D said for the jews to keep the Passover generation after generation.

    ------------------------------------------
    reply from Jeri:

    Yes, my point is that Jesus death fulfills the meaning of the Passover - the blood of the lamb that was put over the doorposts in Goshen when Pharoah was warned that the angel of death would be coming - the Jews were protected from death by the blood of the Lamb.

    The blood of the lamb didn't protect the jews. It was G-D that protected the jew.
    Jeri replied:
    Wrong. If they stepped over that threshold they were out from under that protection of the blood of the lamb over the door post. The angel of death saw that blood over the doorpost and past over them and they lived. Had they crossed over that threshold it would have been a different story. Blood or no blood. A good lesson for Christians as well.

    The point of putting the blood on the posts was for it to be a test. That the jews who would believe in G-D as their savior would be protected.
    Jeri replied:
    A test of obedience? Yes. And if they had not have done it they would have perished. If they had crossed over the threshold they would have perished. Their obedience in staying inside and putting the blood of the lamb over the doop post is what kept them, Mike.

    Actually it's doing what G-D told them to do that saved them.

    It didn't necessarily have to be blood. G-d could have made any test. It could be to put two Xs together. The blood itself didn't mean anything. It was just the test that G-D gave.

    It signifies your eternal lives Christ paid for at the Cross. You couldn't keep the law so he did it for you.
    Why do you think jews can't keep the law.
    Jeri replies:
    Because if you broke one tiny piece of it once it was as if the entire thing had been broken. You had to keep it perfectly. Show me where you guys did that.

    Says who? There is nothing in the Torah that says you have to keep the law perfectly.

    Look at it like American law. No one keep the law 100%. Almost everyone has had a traffic ticket of some sort. However, you pay the consequence and you move on.

    Because you get one ticket you don't get sentence to death.

    It's the same with jewish law. G-D knows we are human. Why would he expect us to keep every law perfectly or be damned to hell?

    There is nothing in the Torah that says that.




    Humans aren't perfect. G-D doesn't expect the jews to keep all the laws perfectly. He designed us. After our death our good deeds vs or bad deeds are weighed and G-D decides where to put us in the World to Come.
    reply from Jeri -
    It isn't by works that your salvation has been won but by the blood of Christ and his work on the cross. You cannot earn your salvation, it is what Christ has done, not what you have done. He said it was finished because at the cross the law was fulfilled through him. You're free.

    He may have said it. But as jews we can not accept that. We need to atone for our own sins.

    What jesus may or may not have done has nothing to do with our own sins.

    We alone are responsible for attoning for our sins.

    Free from what? It's the resistance of doing sins that brings us closer to G-D. I don't want to be free. If I was I would be a robot without free will.


    Just because you do not recognize Jesus as your Messiah does not mean G-d doesn't have His hand on your life. Of course he does. Would G-d hold against you something that you have yet to see? This is how I see you and your people, Mike. At the feast of all feasts with your elder brother, Jesus, that perhaps now you do not recognize but like Josephs brothers - once he removes the veil and lets you see it is him? You will weep on each others shoulders and embrace and celebrate at that feast that he prepared for you

    I am sorry, but we won't. We are commanded to keep the laws as G-D gave them in the Torah. Once again, we are not allowed to add nor subtract from them.

    In fact, Jews were particularly harshly warned to not go after foreign gods. To jews that is what jesus is.

    If G-D wanted us to worship jesus, he would have clearly said so.

    G-D was a micromanager. He went into extreme details of what he required jews to do.


    - yet Josephs Brothers could not know that until Joseph chose to reveal himself to his Jewish brothers. This is how it is with Jesus and why I know you cannot be held responsible for something you do not even know to be true. He is like Joseph - reuniting with his brothers - all of it being the will of G-d and the plan of G-d so no reason for Joseph's brothers to feel condemned over it. It is a beautiful picture of Christ to me with his brethren once he reveals himself to them. - Jeri

    Not for us. G-D told us not to worship anyone foreign to us.

    Jesus is extremely foreign.

    To jews there is not difference between worshipping jesus and worshipping a golden calf.

    It's the same principles.


    At the cross. It's finished. ( fulfilled) According to my intepretation of scripture - the Passover would signify the perfect lamb of God who was slain to take away the sins of the world. The remission of sins. He represents the Atonement in that he is the scapegoat - he hung on that cross in place of Barrabus. The peoples will. .. with that Pilates wife who had a bad dream and had warned him to have nothing to do with the crucifixion of Jesus so he said, His blood be upon your hands. He wanted no part of it as he feared his wifes dream. There is much more as I can easily identify Christ in every single book of the Torah - he is depicted - but that would depend on how much time you've got. jk. note** Jesus had to go to the cross. Without the cross there wouldn't have been an atonement for us according to my faith.

    I you ever read Leviticus you will see that G-D was a micromanager.

    Still is!

    He gave the exact measurements of how the Mishkan, the holy area where sacrifices were to be made was to be created.

    He said exactly what the priests should be wearing. G-D even says where the ashes from the sacrifices should go.

    Don't you think that if G-d truely created this "son" and the other part of the christian theology we would have spelled it out clearly in the Torah.

    Why wouldn't we? G-D went to great lengths to go into small detail of what he expected from the jewish people.
    -------------------------------------------------
    Jeri says:
    I would tell you its in the second half of the bible but I don't want to aggravate you. lol..

    There is no second half for jews. G-D said not add nor subtract. Adding another bible would be adding.
    .
    The Day of Attonement occurs each year. They aren't supposed to be "fulfilled". They have a purpose.
    -----------------------------------------------
    Jeri replies: Yes, I know, they are a picture of Jesus Christ and are to be remembered ( I'm speaking from my own pov here, Mike, not a Jewish pov )

    I know, but I am just saying what the Day of Attonement is.

    I understand.

    I hope te Ezekeiel 37 prophesies and Michah 4:3 prophesy are fulfilled soon. Then we will know that the messiah is here.

    ---------------------------------------------------
    Jeri replies: Yes, I know you are expecting your Messiah. Many preparations are under way.
    -------------------------------------------------------

    However, since they haven't been fuflilled yet, jews know the messiah hasn't come yet.
    -----------------------------------------------------
    Jeri replies: Well read some of the fulfillments to prophecy and see if it looks familiar anyhow. You might recognize something.

    When the messiah comes they all will be fufilled.

    ---------------------------------------------------

    And remember you can't add nor subtract from the law.
    ---------------------------------------------------

    Not one jot or one tittle! How well I know!

    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    Also other than Passover, I am not sure what you mean by Leviticual Feasts?
    ---------------------------------------------------
    reply from Jeri : I got off track with that and probably should not have put it in. Sorry.
    --------------------------------------------------------
     
  6. Book of Jeremiah
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    In response to your responses I say you win, Mike. I cannot use the New Testament fairly when you cannot accept that as a valid source. I could bring up historical accounts - written records from those days about Jesus but again it would be hearsay. I cannot judge my own work but feel you are obeying your own faith in Judaism by not bringing into account the New Testament as you do not accept it.

    John 7:17 Jesus explained to people that if they wanted to know whether he was sent by G-d to just be willing to accept what they find out. I find that is a sound idea for the individual who does not know. Of any race, creed, etc.

    I enjoyed the discussion but do not think anything I would offer further would add anything. I think I will let what I have written speak for itself and call you the winner for inviting someone to discuss the subject! Thank you, Mike!
    - Jeri
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  7. CMike
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    CMike Zionist, proud to be

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    There is no winning.

    As a jew you didn't change my opinion, as a christian I didn't change yours.

    I think it was more of an intellectual execise.
     
  8. Book of Jeremiah
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    Agreed! :clap2:

    See you on the Israel and Palestine boards! - Jeri
     
  9. CMike
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    CMike Zionist, proud to be

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    Great discussion.

    Thank you.
     
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  10. Book of Jeremiah
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    I agree. Thank you.
     
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where in the jeremiah does it say the Messiah would NOT be a blood relative of that king