Janet Reno Dies

[JoeB131]

Yet 11 Davidians were tried and convicted in their roles in the shooting, but no ATF Agents were.

But if the Davidians were Black you'd be complaining about that, calling it racism -- and you know it.

Um.. no. You shoot a cop, you generally get no sympathy from me.

So said King George to George Washington.

Uh, no, he didn't. In fact, King George was willing to accommedate the Founding Slave Rapists...

But that was a long time ago and much has changed where the Spirit of '76 is concerned. The percentage of Americans who have acquired an authoritarian/submissive orientation has grown and continues to increase year-by-year. In this example degradation of the Liberty spirit is manifest in the expressed willingness to submit to authority rather than to defend the sanctity and privacy of one's home. The Castle Doctrine was contemptuously ignored.

You mean most people don't want to live next door to kiddy-diddling, gun dealing, meth-smoking cultists? Um... yeah.

Correctly believing the government agents had no just cause to break into and search their home the Davidians chose to defend that sovereign right. Koresh believed the American People would rise in support of the Davidians' decision if they knew the truth, but the federal agents blocked access to the media. In spite of the fact that reporters demanding access to the Davidians were willing to assume all responsibility for their personal safety the federal agents isolated them to a location about a mile away from the site of the standoff. They were also denied access by telephone.

Uh, no. MOst Americans thought the Davidians were scumbag cultists because they were scumbag cultists WHO WERE HAVING SEX WITH CHILDREN!!!!

The American People tolerated this oppressive isolation thus allowing the Waco Massacre to occur as the symbolic death of the First and Fourth Amendments.

The First and Fourth Amendments are not "get out of jail free cards".

The Davidians were illegally converting weapons.
They were molesting children.
They were dealing drugs.

 

[JoeB131]

And you are still trying to claim that Kiddly-diddling cultists weren't a bigger threat to society?

If that is your best effort you would serve your interest better by saying nothing.

would you want the Davidians living next door to you? I wouldn't.

 

[MikeK]

would you want the Davidians living next door to you? I wouldn't.

Do you know (or do you not believe) the Davidians' neighbors (all of them) said the Davidians kept mainly to themselves but were friendly, helpful, peaceful people. The local sheriff (Jack Harwell) also said they were "decent, responsible, cooperative people." Sheriff Jack Harwell | Waco - The Inside Story | FRONTLINE | PBS

So why would you not want them living next door to you?

 

[MikeK]

Um.. no. You shoot a cop, you generally get no sympathy from me.

Really? How about Patrolman Darrel Wilson, the cop who shot Mike Brown, the "kid" you have such sympathy for?

I don't believe you.

Uh, no, he didn't. In fact, King George was willing to accommedate the Founding Slave Rapists...

King George did on several occasions attempt to negotiate peaceful solutions to the tax controversy, along with some other differences that were brewing in the Colony.

As usual you don't know what you're talking about and you are inclined to invent your own interpretation of things.

You mean most people don't want to live next door to kiddy-diddling, gun dealing, meth-smoking cultists? Um... yeah.

The Davidians were federally licensed gun dealers who operated a perfectly legal, tax-paying business. The rest of your slur derives from your twisted imagination.

Uh, no. MOst Americans thought the Davidians were scumbag cultists because they were scumbag cultists WHO WERE HAVING SEX WITH CHILDREN!!!!

Only those Americans who share your warped imagination and who are as receptive to government brainwash as you are believe that. Such scurrilous lies appeal to that mentality.

The First and Fourth Amendments are not "get out of jail free cards".

The Davidians were illegally converting weapons.
They were molesting children.
They were dealing drugs.

There is absolutely no evidence to support any of those lies. What you've posted are the kind of vile imaginings which are readily accepted and propagated by the degenerate mentality.

The only element of truth contained above refers to converting weapons. The Davidians did manufacture and sell conversion kits -- which were 100% legal at that time. The only possible complaint ATF had against the Davidians was the possibility that the Davidians were testing their kits without a special full-auto license, which would have been a relatively minor technical violation -- certainly not serious enough to justify that melodramatically excessive and unnecessary raid. ATF had no evidence that any actual test conversions were done, however temporarily. They simply assumed that, which is not evidence. Koresh consistently denied it, which is what pissed the ATF commander off. Each time the issue arose Koresh told ATF he was not test-converting weapons and if they wished to inspect his inventory they need only make a mutually convenient appointment.

Thus the unlawful raid that resulted in the death of 21 children, along with many adults on both sides, the waste of many millions of taxpayer dollars, and one of the most shameful examples of federal oppression in American history.

 

[JoeB131]

Do you know (or do you not believe) the Davidians' neighbors (all of them) said the Davidians kept mainly to themselves but were friendly, helpful, peaceful people. The local sheriff (Jack Harwell) also said they were "decent, responsible, cooperative people." Sheriff Jack Harwell | Waco - The Inside Story | FRONTLINE | PBS

So why would you not want them living next door to you?

because they were creepy ass, kiddy-diddling cultists? Come on, you ask like this is even a question.

Oh, yeah, and they had a fixation on guns and the end of the world.

Really? How about Patrolman Darrel Wilson, the cop who shot Mike Brown, the "kid" you have such sympathy for?

I don't believe you.

Except nobody shot Wilson...so, um, no. Obviously, reading comprehension wasn't one of those things they didn't cover with you at home school

King George did on several occasions attempt to negotiate peaceful solutions to the tax controversy, along with some other differences that were brewing in the Colony.

As usual you don't know what you're talking about and you are inclined to invent your own interpretation of things.

again- go back and read what I said. The British were willing to accommedate the colonists. again, it's that reading comprehension thing.

There is absolutely no evidence to support any of those lies. What you've posted are the kind of vile imaginings which are readily accepted and propagated by the degenerate mentality.

Again, Michelle Jones.

Was 11 years old when Koresh started having sex with her. Was 13 when Koresh impregnated her with twins.

Koresh was having sex with Children. Deal with it.

 

[MikeK]

because they were creepy ass, kiddy-diddling cultists? Come on, you ask like this is even a question.

Again, Michelle Jones.

Was 11 years old when Koresh started having sex with her. Was 13 when Koresh impregnated her with twins.

Koresh was having sex with Children. Deal with it.

Koresh's pedophilic relations with Michelle Jones did not become an issue until survivors of the fire were questioned. Rumors of Koresh having relations with "children" arose years before the raid. Those rumors were investigated by the local sheriff and the Texas Department of Social Services and were declared unfounded.

ATF made use of these rumors by adding "suspicion of child molestation" to their warrant affidavit, which was invalid because ATF has no jurisdiction in such matters and there was no mention of evidence for their suspicion. These rumors, which involved one individual, David Koresh, quickly expanded into allegations of mass pedophilic orgies involving the entire Davidian assembly.

ATF's only legitimate concern was based on their transactions with Koresh, whom they could have arrested any Monday to Friday morning during his walks to and from the local Post Office, which they knew. There was absolutely no necessity for that raid. The only reason the BATF wasn't disbanded, or its commanders severely punished, is to do so would have been an admission of grievous error by a federal agency resulting in massive lawsuits and censure extending to the White House.

There was no evidence, not even the slightest suggestion of pedophilic activity involving any Davidian other than David Koresh, therefore no reason to denounce the Davidians as a "child-molesting cult."

Even if the charges made against Koresh are true, does that justify what the FBI/HRT did? The FBI repeatedly told the Press they believed Koresh to be a psychopath. A lawyer, Dick DeGuerrin, who spoke with Koresh by phone, told the FBI -- and the media -- that Koresh had threatened to set fire to the compound if any attempt was made to breach. Koresh, himself, repeatedly issued the same warning. So, having cause to believe Koresh was a psycho who threatened to start a fire if they attempted to break in HRT did exactly that -- knowing there were 21 innocent, helpless children in there.

That is the solitary point of this discussion. Nothing else. Even if all the accusations made against the Davidians were true, nothing justifies ATF's raid or HRT's breach of the compound's wall.

 

[JoeB131]

Koresh's pedophilic relations with Michelle Jones did not become an issue until survivors of the fire were questioned. Rumors of Koresh having relations with "children" arose years before the raid. Those rumors were investigated by the local sheriff and the Texas Department of Social Services and were declared unfounded.

You're dodging the question. If the DSS had done their job, they'd have seen Michelle with a big old baby bump and said, "What the fuck! She's 13!!!!"

There was no evidence, not even the slightest suggestion of pedophilic activity involving any Davidian other than David Koresh, therefore no reason to denounce the Davidians as a "child-molesting cult."

Uh, dude, the rest of the cultists let that shit happen.

Even if the charges made against Koresh are true, does that justify what the FBI/HRT did? The FBI repeatedly told the Press they believed Koresh to be a psychopath. A lawyer, Dick DeGuerrin, who spoke with Koresh by phone, told the FBI -- and the media -- that Koresh had threatened to set fire to the compound if any attempt was made to breach. Koresh, himself, repeatedly issued the same warning. So, having cause to believe Koresh was a psycho who threatened to start a fire if they attempted to break in HRT did exactly that -- knowing there were 21 innocent, helpless children in there.

So let me get this straight... Koresh was a psychopath, who was threatening to set the place on fire, and therefor the FBI was wrong in trying to rescue those kids? Is this your argument?

 

[MikeK]

So let me get this straight... Koresh was a psychopath, who was threatening to set the place on fire, and therefor the FBI was wrong in trying to rescue those kids? Is this your argument?

No. My argument is they should not have tried to rescue those kids by doing exactly what the man they had cause to believe was a psycho said he would do if any such attempt was made.

I know that reasoning is difficult for you to grasp but one would hope that trained FBI agents would realize that when you're standing in a puddle of gasoline it's not wise to light any matches.

 

[MikeK]

[...]

You're dodging the question. If the DSS had done their job, they'd have seen Michelle with a big old baby bump and said, "What the fuck! She's 13!!!!"

[...]

You presume a lot.

Even if Michelle was pregnant during the DSS investigation, have you ever heard of Traci Lords? Look her up. She started making porn films at age 14 by showing a forged birth certificate. She was the Number One porn start in the U.S. by age 15.

You weren't there, so don't assume so much. There is a multitude of possibilities which you cannot simply take for granted.

 

[MikeK]

Uh, dude, the rest of the cultists let that shit happen.

Can you say for certain how many Davidians were aware of these clandestine sexual activities? Or are you just making assumptions based on what you wish to be true?

Consider the revelations of clandestine sexual activity in the Catholic Church that went on for no one really knows how long. I attended Catholic School and Academy for a total of thirteen years and I never heard any such rumors. The same applies to my older brother who also served mass at St. Francis Xavier.

In spite of my exposure to one of the most intensive religions I was secretly an atheist from about age fourteen. But our late mother was a devout Catholic who would have been devastated by even the vaguest rumor of sexual activity in the Church.

Whatever the situation it was sufficiently secretive to elude discovery by the local sheriff and the Texas DSS. So you can't just assume that all, or even many, of the Davidians knew all that went on behind closed doors.

 

[JoeB131]

Even if Michelle was pregnant during the DSS investigation, have you ever heard of Traci Lords? Look her up. She started making porn films at age 14 by showing a forged birth certificate. She was the Number One porn start in the U.S. by age 15.

You weren't there, so don't assume so much. There is a multitude of possibilities which you cannot simply take for granted.

So the thing is, they didn't do their jobs. Koresh was molesting children. Therefore the ATF was perfectly justified in going after him.

Can you say for certain how many Davidians were aware of these clandestine sexual activities? Or are you just making assumptions based on what you wish to be true?

They all lived together in a big old compound... Please... your rationalizations for Koresh and his followers just keep getting weaker.

No. My argument is they should not have tried to rescue those kids by doing exactly what the man they had cause to believe was a psycho said he would do if any such attempt was made.

I know that reasoning is difficult for you to grasp but one would hope that trained FBI agents would realize that when you're standing in a puddle of gasoline it's not wise to light any matches.

So you let him get away with murdering four ATF Agents because he threatens to burn some kids alive? YOu do realize you just get crazier the longer you go on.

Yes, Waco was a tragedy, but it was a tragedy caused by deluded cultists who frankly, no one is going to miss.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

Does anyone remember this famous speech by Bill Clinton in which he reminds the American people that while he was president, his wife Hillary Clinton having conversations with the dead - Mrs. Roosevelt? The story is famous in Bob Woodward's book about Hillary Clinton talking to dead people.

Mrs. Clinton should contact Janet Reno and ask her about the temperature where she is so she can make an informed decision as to whether or not she wants to join her there in the future.

The crowd laughs as if he's joking; he doesn't give any indication it's a joke and seriously reinforces the point. Wow!