James Madison thought we should live by the ten commandments

[mdn2000]

As of this time I could care less what some members think Madison said or did not say, I will wait until I can buy half a dozen books written over the past 200 years before I know what is true and what is not.

What is important is the Leftist/Liberal/Marxist are so bent out of shape attacking others beliefs.

Such anger and hatred, whats so wrong with morality, whats wrong with not killing, with not raping children, whats wrong with not stealing.

Still one must study Adams, Madison, Jefferson, Franklin. One must study those that influenced our founding fathers, one must study the Greeks to put everything in perspective.

I find it useful though to see how vehemently the Liberal/Marxist attack simple people who try to live life as they please.

Its great to see logic and fact go unchallenged.

 

[midcan5]

"Nothwithstanding the general progress made within the two last centuries in favour of this branch of liberty, & the full establishment of it, in some parts of our Country, there remains in others a strong bias towards the old error, that without some sort of alliance or coalition between Gov' & Religion neither can be duly supported: Such indeed is the tendency to such a coalition, and such its corrupting influence on both the parties, that the danger cannot be too carefully guarded agst.. And in a Gov' of opinion, like ours, the only effectual guard must be found in the soundness and stability of the general opinion on the subject. Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Gov will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together;"

[James Madison, Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, The Writings of James Madison, Gaillard Hunt]

Quotes on Religion - James Madison

 

[Article 15]

As of this time I could care less what some members think Madison said or did not say, I will wait until I can buy half a dozen books written over the past 200 years before I know what is true and what is not.

What is important is the Leftist/Liberal/Marxist are so bent out of shape attacking others beliefs.

Such anger and hatred, whats so wrong with morality, whats wrong with not killing, with not raping children, whats wrong with not stealing.

Still one must study Adams, Madison, Jefferson, Franklin. One must study those that influenced our founding fathers, one must study the Greeks to put everything in perspective.

I find it useful though to see how vehemently the Liberal/Marxist attack simple people who try to live life as they please.

Its great to see logic and fact go unchallenged.

I don't need the 10 Commandments to tell me that killing, raping children, and stealing is wrong, jackass.

 

[Coyote]

As of this time I could care less what some members think Madison said or did not say, I will wait until I can buy half a dozen books written over the past 200 years before I know what is true and what is not.

I do care about what he says or does not say when people attempt to use his words to make a false point.

What is important is the Leftist/Liberal/Marxist are so bent out of shape attacking others beliefs.

mmmmhhhh they're not the only one's attacking other's beliefs....

Such anger and hatred, whats so wrong with morality, whats wrong with not killing, with not raping children, whats wrong with not stealing.

Absolutely nothing is wrong with them. Those beliefs are almost universal in human society, in one form or another. They didn't start with nor will the end with any one religion.

Still one must study Adams, Madison, Jefferson, Franklin. One must study those that influenced our founding fathers, one must study the Greeks to put everything in perspective.

I find it useful though to see how vehemently the Liberal/Marxist attack simple people who try to live life as they please.

I find it dismaying how vehemently the Conservative/Fundies attack simple people who try to live life as they please.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

As of this time I could care less what some members think Madison said or did not say, I will wait until I can buy half a dozen books written over the past 200 years before I know what is true and what is not.

What is important is the Leftist/Liberal/Marxist are so bent out of shape attacking others beliefs.

Such anger and hatred, whats so wrong with morality, whats wrong with not killing, with not raping children, whats wrong with not stealing.

Still one must study Adams, Madison, Jefferson, Franklin. One must study those that influenced our founding fathers, one must study the Greeks to put everything in perspective.

I find it useful though to see how vehemently the Liberal/Marxist attack simple people who try to live life as they please.

Its great to see logic and fact go unchallenged.

I don't need the 10 Commandments to tell me that killing, raping children, and stealing is wrong, jackass.

But the Jews and many to come after needed to bible to argue that it was right.

 

[mdn2000]

[quoteI do care about what he says or does not say when people attempt to use his words to make a false point][/quote]

Yet by only reading Madison do you know if the point is false, sounds like someone prefers to be ignorant.

Those beliefs are almost universal in human society, in one form or another. They didn't start with nor will the end with any one religion.

As universal as the Bible, these principles may not of started in Israel but it is the Bible that is the oldest written word that these principles are found in.

I find it dismaying how vehemently the Conservative/Fundies attack simple people who try to live life as they please.

Simple people, who do you speak of, which incident, certainly I have not vehemently attacked you, so what are you speaking of.

I don't need the 10 Commandments to tell me that killing, raping children, and stealing is wrong, jackass

You need some sort of commandment in order to be polite though, incidently where did I state that you needed the ten commandments??? Than again how do you know you did not need the Ten Commandments,

You were born in a culture that obeyed, lived, prayed, memorized, and taught the Ten Commandments. You cannot say how you would behave if you grew up in a culture where the Ten Commandments did not exsist.

 

[Coyote]

I do care about what he says or does not say when people attempt to use his words to make a false point]

Yet by only reading Madison do you know if the point is false, sounds like someone prefers to be ignorant.

The point is false on two grounds: one, Madison never said it. To use it as if he he said it is to imply a false authority and hints and clutching at straws and willing to accept a false statement in order to try to prove a point.

The second way in which it is false is that there is ample evidence that the constitution and our system of law were most certainly not based on Ten Commandment law or Biblical principles but rather on English Common Law.

As universal as the Bible, these principles may not of started in Israel but it is the Bible that is the oldest written word that these principles are found in.

I don't think so.

The oldest material in the Hebrew Bible, which would be the Old Testament is thought to date from the 13th century BC and the final form is thought to have been set between somewhere between the 1st century BC and the 4th century AD.

Prior to that, you have the Code of Hamurabi, which includes similar injunctions (along with their punishments) (1790BC); Code of Ur-Nammu, king of Ur (ca. 2050 BC) and some others.

I find it dismaying how vehemently the Conservative/Fundies attack simple people who try to live life as they please.

Simple people, who do you speak of, which incident, certainly I have not vehemently attacked you, so what are you speaking of.

No. You haven't but there have been plenty from the right on "Liberal/Marxists".

I don't need the 10 Commandments to tell me that killing, raping children, and stealing is wrong, jackass

You need some sort of commandment in order to be polite though, incidently where did I state that you needed the ten commandments??? Than again how do you know you did not need the Ten Commandments,

You were born in a culture that obeyed, lived, prayed, memorized, and taught the Ten Commandments. You cannot say how you would behave if you grew up in a culture where the Ten Commandments did not exsist.

I did not say that quote.

On the last paragraph - some version of the "Ten Commandments" (or the Golden Rule) exists in almost every human society, independent of Judeo-Christian philosophy.

 

[Anguille]

You were born in a culture that obeyed, lived, prayed, memorized, and taught the Ten Commandments. You cannot say how you would behave if you grew up in a culture where the Ten Commandments did not exsist.

Ok. So then why do we still have rape, murder and theft just like we did before the 10 Commandments?

 

[mdn2000]

The second way in which it is false is that there is ample evidence that the constitution and our system of law were most certainly not based on Ten Commandment law or Biblical principles but rather on English Common Law

I wont argue this point based on opinion I also admit that my knowledge is mostly that I have attained reading John Adams, John Adams was extremely well read and I must further my studies by attaining the books John Adams read. I could google and come back to this but I really like to have book in hand. Our founding was not solely based on English Common Law. Like I said I will come back to this, most likely not with too much new information but who knows, I may get lucky at the used book store today.

I am going on a search for some books on Madison, nothing new though, I like to get books that are very old. I find that many books written closer to the times in question are much more relevant.

Prior to that, you have the Code of Hamurabi, which includes similar injunctions (along with their punishments) (1790BC); Code of Ur-Nammu, king of Ur (ca. 2050 BC) and some others.

Like I said my studies on this subject are light, I am not familiar with what you have posted so I thank you, I will be sure to add this to my studies.

On the other stuff I did not mean to write my post as it read, it should of been a bit more directed so that others would not of contributed a quote to you that you did not write, I got a bit lazy.

 

[mdn2000]

You were born in a culture that obeyed, lived, prayed, memorized, and taught the Ten Commandments. You cannot say how you would behave if you grew up in a culture where the Ten Commandments did not exsist.

Ok. So then why do we still have rape, murder and theft just like we did before the 10 Commandments?

Human nature repeats itself

Not all people grow up being taught properly or have bad parents.

Abnormal sex drives

Abnormality in general.

I am not sure that the premise of the question is accurate, how bad was crime before the 10 Commandments and how much did crime change after the 10 Commandments, this question I cannot answer.

 

[mdn2000]

I do care about what he says or does not say when people attempt to use his words to make a false point]

Yet by only reading Madison do you know if the point is false, sounds like someone prefers to be ignorant.

The point is false on two grounds: one, Madison never said it. To use it as if he he said it is to imply a false authority and hints and clutching at straws and willing to accept a false statement in order to try to prove a point.

The second way in which it is false is that there is ample evidence that the constitution and our system of law were most certainly not based on Ten Commandment law or Biblical principles but rather on English Common Law.



I don't think so.

The oldest material in the Hebrew Bible, which would be the Old Testament is thought to date from the 13th century BC and the final form is thought to have been set between somewhere between the 1st century BC and the 4th century AD.

Prior to that, you have the Code of Hamurabi, which includes similar injunctions (along with their punishments) (1790BC); Code of Ur-Nammu, king of Ur (ca. 2050 BC) and some others.



No. You haven't but there have been plenty from the right on "Liberal/Marxists".

I don't need the 10 Commandments to tell me that killing, raping children, and stealing is wrong, jackass

You need some sort of commandment in order to be polite though, incidently where did I state that you needed the ten commandments??? Than again how do you know you did not need the Ten Commandments,

You were born in a culture that obeyed, lived, prayed, memorized, and taught the Ten Commandments. You cannot say how you would behave if you grew up in a culture where the Ten Commandments did not exsist.

I did not say that quote.

On the last paragraph - some version of the "Ten Commandments" (or the Golden Rule) exists in almost every human society, independent of Judeo-Christian philosophy.

And did not God say that all man will know my word, I believe this, so being independent of Judeo-Christian religion in my opinion is consistent with the word of God.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Apparently James Madison did not believe that our civilization was to be held together by laws but by religion and the ten commandments.

"To preserve the Republic, it is in the hands of the people. We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments" James Madison

It's ihopehefails who is wrong, not JM. I will refer you all to Is it true that Madison said "Our future is staked on the 10 commandments?" which clearly explains the error of ihef's way. The point is that JM never said it.

 

[Coyote]

The second way in which it is false is that there is ample evidence that the constitution and our system of law were most certainly not based on Ten Commandment law or Biblical principles but rather on English Common Law

I wont argue this point based on opinion I also admit that my knowledge is mostly that I have attained reading John Adams, John Adams was extremely well read and I must further my studies by attaining the books John Adams read. I could google and come back to this but I really like to have book in hand. Our founding was not solely based on English Common Law. Like I said I will come back to this, most likely not with too much new information but who knows, I may get lucky at the used book store today.

I am going on a search for some books on Madison, nothing new though, I like to get books that are very old. I find that many books written closer to the times in question are much more relevant.

Prior to that, you have the Code of Hamurabi, which includes similar injunctions (along with their punishments) (1790BC); Code of Ur-Nammu, king of Ur (ca. 2050 BC) and some others.

Like I said my studies on this subject are light, I am not familiar with what you have posted so I thank you, I will be sure to add this to my studies.

On the other stuff I did not mean to write my post as it read, it should of been a bit more directed so that others would not of contributed a quote to you that you did not write, I got a bit lazy.

Ok...it had me confused

On the other - I know it wasn't based solely on Common Law, but it also included aspects from the Greeks as well as the Romans I believe.

 

[Coyote]

Yet by only reading Madison do you know if the point is false, sounds like someone prefers to be ignorant.

The point is false on two grounds: one, Madison never said it. To use it as if he he said it is to imply a false authority and hints and clutching at straws and willing to accept a false statement in order to try to prove a point.

The second way in which it is false is that there is ample evidence that the constitution and our system of law were most certainly not based on Ten Commandment law or Biblical principles but rather on English Common Law.



I don't think so.

The oldest material in the Hebrew Bible, which would be the Old Testament is thought to date from the 13th century BC and the final form is thought to have been set between somewhere between the 1st century BC and the 4th century AD.

Prior to that, you have the Code of Hamurabi, which includes similar injunctions (along with their punishments) (1790BC); Code of Ur-Nammu, king of Ur (ca. 2050 BC) and some others.



No. You haven't but there have been plenty from the right on "Liberal/Marxists".

You need some sort of commandment in order to be polite though, incidently where did I state that you needed the ten commandments??? Than again how do you know you did not need the Ten Commandments,

You were born in a culture that obeyed, lived, prayed, memorized, and taught the Ten Commandments. You cannot say how you would behave if you grew up in a culture where the Ten Commandments did not exsist.

I did not say that quote.

On the last paragraph - some version of the "Ten Commandments" (or the Golden Rule) exists in almost every human society, independent of Judeo-Christian philosophy.

And did not God say that all man will know my word, I believe this, so being independent of Judeo-Christian religion in my opinion is consistent with the word of God.

At this point, we would be debating faith...and faith is just that, faith...

 

[Coyote]

You were born in a culture that obeyed, lived, prayed, memorized, and taught the Ten Commandments. You cannot say how you would behave if you grew up in a culture where the Ten Commandments did not exsist.

Ok. So then why do we still have rape, murder and theft just like we did before the 10 Commandments?

Human nature repeats itself

Not all people grow up being taught properly or have bad parents.

Abnormal sex drives

Abnormality in general.

I am not sure that the premise of the question is accurate, how bad was crime before the 10 Commandments and how much did crime change after the 10 Commandments, this question I cannot answer.

If you look up the references to Hammerabi and the other codes (Wiki is the source that is easiest)...you'll see the same sorts of laws put into place well before the TenCommandments. The Ten Commandments were simply the code for the Hebrews. I doubt crime "changed" all that much because similar laws were in place in other societies. Also, crime depends on what you consider "crime" (for instance in ancient societies - including those of the Bible, many crimes against women were not considered "crimes"). Crime also on the strength of the rule of law and socical stability. Crime certainly rises in time of war and conflict.

 

[rikules]

As of this time I could care less what some members think Madison said or did not say, I will wait until I can buy half a dozen books written over the past 200 years before I know what is true and what is not.

What is important is the Leftist/Liberal/Marxist are so bent out of shape attacking others beliefs.

Such anger and hatred, whats so wrong with morality, whats wrong with not killing, with not raping children, whats wrong with not stealing.

Still one must study Adams, Madison, Jefferson, Franklin. One must study those that influenced our founding fathers, one must study the Greeks to put everything in perspective.

I find it useful though to see how vehemently the Liberal/Marxist attack simple people who try to live life as they please.

Its great to see logic and fact go unchallenged.

It surprises me that you would be so proud of not challenging the bad logic and false facts of todays modern conservatism.

fact: god promoted slavery
fact: The United States is a SECULAR nation
fact: the words "the United States is a CHRISTIAN nation" are NOT in the constitution

that you would willingly and blindly believe lies and misinformation is very telling

 

[ABikerSailor]

No.......God didn't promote slavery. Ask the Jews if you don't believe that one. Matter of fact, it was the very reason that Yeshua was in Jerusalem just before He was crucified. He was there to celebrate Passover, which led to the Hebrews being led out of slavery in Egypt with Moshe (Moses) in the lead.

Matter of fact, God doesn't promote slavery of any kind. Get me a Bible verse that SPECIFICALLY STATES THAT GOD ENDORSES SLAVERY.

You can't.

 

[Coyote]

God(s) ... is/are indifferent to slavery.

That is a human affair.

But...the Judeo-Christian brand of deity does endorse strict obedience.

Failure to comply could result in smiting.

 

[mdn2000]

I got my book on Madison, unfortunately the used book store only had one, this book clearly attributes the Ten Commandment statement to James Madison, further, I am just kidding, I have the book but nothing in it about the Ten Commandments. Just doing a quick search using the index of the book and its clear Madison meant for the seperation of church and state. Madison felt people should be free to practice their religion.

It also appears that Madison was ashamed of owning slaves, its a vague reference in that there is not much information but then again I just got the book.

I have never ever been able to come up with certain fact simply by reading one book, I wont be satisfied until I find many more books on Madison. Of course it is possible to find one great book that will do the job so I will keep looking.

So is it out of line to quote John Adams in this thread, John Adams definately was influenced by god and the ten commandments, I will have to take a look at Page Smith's great work on John Adams.

Thanks is in order for all you folks posting in this thread, I went out and bought "James Madison, the Founding Father" by Robert A. Rutland, it is signed by the author, may not be worth more than the 7 bucks I paid but its great that its signed, if it had not been for this thread I would of missed this great find.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Apparently James Madison did not believe that our civilization was to be held together by laws but by religion and the ten commandments.

"To preserve the Republic, it is in the hands of the people. We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments" James Madison

James Madison also owned slaves. What of it?

JM grew up in a slave-owning family and owned slaves all his life.

In 1833 JM sold several of his farms but not his slaves. A year later he sold 16 slaves to a relative - with their permission. (Brant, p637)

He did not free his slaves in his will. (Brant p640)

Which U.S. Presidents Owned Slaves?