It's Time For A Flat Tax.

[Paulie]

There's a difference between being fair and sympathetic and exploiting other people's success.

It's a matter of opinion I guess.

I'm of the mind that if any law is too egregious for some then it is so for all.

There's just no point of taxing people in poverty only so they can apply to a program to get it back. Cut out the middle man. Also, it's an incentive for some to get the to a point that they can willfully contribute.

It used to be.

 

[Ariux]

Flat tax = middle-class tax increases, and a tax cut for the rich, like Romney and Buffet who already paid effectively about half of what the middle-class paid in federal taxes.

 

[uscitizen]

All the supporters for so called progressive punitive taxes have some bitter pills to swallow with the undeniable success of the flat tax in other countries.

The Rise Of The Flat Tax Gives Us Morning In Albania - Forbes

Here's a simple example

Summary of Latest Federal Individual Income Tax Data | Tax Foundation

In 2009 the total income tax revenue was 865.8 Billion

In 2009 the total of all personal income was about 12 Trillion dollars.

Total Personal Income U.S. and All States

That works out to an effective tax rate of about 7% on all personal income.

This is not AGI mind you but gross personal income.

If we instituted a flat tax of of 10% on all personal income our tax revenue in 2009 would have been 1.2 Trillion dollars.

If we lower the corporate income tax to the same flat rate we'll see even more revenue as businesses will no longer have incentive to keep money off shore.

Our taxes would be simple to file and there is absolutely no room to cheat or evade taxes.

We would be able to gut the IRS and save billions of dollars.

We wouldn't have to hire accountants and tax attorneys anymore.

And we get to keep 90% of what we earn every year.

How can anyone oppose this simple yet elegant plan?

Many will fight it.
HR Block and such companies will spend their last dime fighting it. As trhey are a parasitic industry living off of our complicated tax system.

the poor who get more money back than they paid in will fight it.

Congress will fight it since it does not allow them to repay lobbyists favors with favorable tax rates for a specific industry, etc.

And of course it would increase the number of unemployed in the IRS and tax prep industries.

Government jobs don't add to tax revenues anyway so losing some will be no big deal.

The extra money that people will have in their pockets will ignite the economy because all that money will be saved, spent or invested all of which serve to grow GDP

that extra money to spend will benefit mostly China.

 

[Widdekind]

Flat tax = middle-class tax increases

If a flat tax is "fair"; then your middle-class is paying "un-fairly" low taxes. The top 5% pay nearly 50% of taxes.

Can you complain, against a flat tax, on any grounds, of equity, neutrality, or fairness ?

 

[signelect]

Lets do it. What do we do the the IRS who will be out of work, woops I am sorry I meant out of a pay check.

 

[rightwinger]

Flat tax = middle-class tax increases

If a flat tax is "fair"; then your middle-class is paying "un-fairly" low taxes. The top 5% pay nearly 50% of taxes.

Can you complain, against a flat tax, on any grounds, of equity, neutrality, or fairness ?

Yes, our middle class has been MOOCHING off society for 30 years

 

[Ariux]

Flat tax = middle-class tax increases

If a flat tax is "fair"; then your middle-class is paying "un-fairly" low taxes. The top 5% pay nearly 50% of taxes.

Can you complain, against a flat tax, on any grounds, of equity, neutrality, or fairness ?

Widdekind, you have shit for brains. The effective federal tax rate for the middle-class is higher than the effective tax rate for the rich.

Romney has refused to release his tax returns for any year other than 2010. In 2010, he nominally paid under 14% in all federal taxes combined. In reality, he probably paid under 10%. Imagine what Romney's tax returns look like that he wouldn't release. A single man making minimum wage is federally taxed at over 15%.

But, f-ing idiots like you don't think Romney should be effectively taxed at even 10%. So, you want to eliminate the higher tax brackets. Super-rich William Buffet, the man who pointed out that he pays less taxes than his secretary, said that under one proposed flat tax, his effective tax rate would be 3%. When they pay less than the small amount of taxes they already do, the middle-class will have to pick up the tab.

 

[dblack]

I'm for the flat tax, but I don't have a problem with those below the poverty line not paying taxes.

If it was accompanied by putting an end to all other tax deductions and incentives that weren't directly attributed to calculating actually income, I see nothing wrong with simply exempting the first 15k or so for everyone.

I can understand SP's point, and there's probably no need beyond the PR to do the exemption, but if we're going to worry about being that ideologically pure we should just get rid of income tax altogether. It's problematic with any scheme.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Lets base our tax structure on Russia!

Never thought I'd hear the right wing sink so low

Yeah god forbid we try something that actually works unlike our current multi million word tax code

 

[Skull Pilot]

Explain a flat tax that will not cut down the tax obligation of the wealthy while raising it for the poor

Yeah god forbid we replace inequity with equal treatment under the law

 

[Skull Pilot]

Flat tax = middle-class tax increases

If a flat tax is "fair"; then your middle-class is paying "un-fairly" low taxes. The top 5% pay nearly 50% of taxes.

Can you complain, against a flat tax, on any grounds, of equity, neutrality, or fairness ?

Yes, our middle class has been MOOCHING off society for 30 years

Tell me what income level defines one as middle class

 

[Widdekind]

The effective federal tax rate for the middle-class is higher than the effective tax rate for the rich.

not according to any statistics i have seen.

and, not under an equitable, neutral, and fair flat rate sales tax, either

Romney has refused to release his tax returns for any year other than 2010. In 2010, he nominally paid under 14% in all federal taxes combined. In reality, he probably paid under 10%. Imagine what Romney's tax returns look like that he wouldn't release. A single man making minimum wage is federally taxed at over 15%...

you don't think Romney should be effectively taxed at even 10%.

you are confused. you are putting your words in my mouth, then bashing me, for your own inventions.

10%... flat-rate sales tax... for everybody...

then Romney couldn't hide his money. That would do him no good. All taxes could be taken "at the cash register", as a 10% flat-rate sales tax, on all transactions. The total trade volume in the US economy is nearly $40T per year. So a 10% sales tax would generate $4T per year in government tax revenues, more than enough to fund government even at current (far-more-than de minimus) levels.

we should just get rid of income tax altogether

work is the sale of labor. Logically, wages should be taxed at the same (say) 10%. If giving haircuts is a "final (retail) service", accounted as GDP (new final goods & services per year); then working on an assembly line is an "intermediate (wholesale) service". The former stands in relation to the latter, as final goods (computers) to intermediate goods (raw materials).

A simple, straightforward, easy-to-understand, 10% flat rate sales tax, on the sales of all goods & services, final & intermediate (retail goods, professional services, parts, labor); would generate nearly $4T / year in tax revenues. All of which could be taken "at the cash register", with no need of anybody's further time or effort.

Society could then decide how to spend the money, for Public benefit.

No tax gymnastics; no loopholes; no lawyers; no court claims; 10% at every cash-register; $4T / year revenues. No picking and choosing, no playing "eenie meenie minie mo" with people's money. (Logically, a 1% "penny per dollar" tax would still generate nearly a half trillion dollars per year for government; still far more than de minimus revenues, comparable to defense spending.)

If you admit one exception ("exemption for the first $10K"); then you will soon start admitting more & more others. i perceive no problems, with an equitable, neutral, fair, 10% flat-rate sales tax, on all goods & services, final & intermediate, "at the cash register". That would include stocks bought & sold in NYC & Chicago ("no, you cannot buy the titles to (share of) US businesses willy nilly, any more than you could with the titles to cars, trucks, or planes"). That would end speculation, ending speculative bubbles, like those that caused the Great Depression & Great Recession ("fool me once, fool me twice... but better late than never"). People would only buy up US businesses if they honestly cared about them, and honestly expected to "invest" in them, for the long term

 

[Ariux]

The effective federal tax rate for the middle-class is higher than the effective tax rate for the rich.

not according to any statistics i have seen.

Your numbers disregard the total amount of income the rich have. And, your numbers ignore the federal taxes on income that are not nominally the federal income tax.

then Romney couldn't hide his money. That would do him no good. All taxes could be taken "at the cash register", as a 10% flat-rate sales tax, on all transactions.

Considering that Romney spends only about 1% of his income "at the register", you want Romney to be taxed effectively at 0.1% of his income, while people who live paycheck to paycheck are taxed at a rate a 100 times higher.

And, you also want a massive expansion of the welfare state. Your plan requires huge tax increases in the poor, so they'll need more welfare just to afford the same iphones, etc.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Our taxes would be simple to file and there is absolutely no room to cheat or evade taxes.

You're a fucking moron, you know that? If you want to evade the flat tax you can try the time honored tradition of HIDING INCOME. "Well gee whiz boss, I never thought of that!"

 

[hortysir]

What happens to sales tax and every other tax?

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

what happens to sales tax and every other tax?

0.1%

 

[hortysir]

what happens to sales tax and every other tax?

0.1%

Good luck with that.

 

[Widdekind]

Considering that Romney spends only about 1% of his income "at the register", you want Romney to be taxed effectively at 0.1% of his income, while people who live paycheck to paycheck are taxed at a rate a 100 times higher.

give me a straight answer --

what does Romney do with his money? Give me his cash-flow statement:

Revenues
lots & lots & lots of dollars


Expenses
1 apple, 2 bananas, 3 candy-bars
and _________________________​

watch this (please) -- Romney lends $1M to Acme company, to expand their widget factory; with Romney's loaned $1M, they

• buy new equipment (taxed 10% on sales), and build a new factory (taxed 10% on sales), hiring construction workers to do so (taxed 10% on labor)
• hire more workers, paying them more wages (taxed 10% on labor)
• sell more widgets (all taxed 10% on sales)

Lots of Romney's money winds up taken as tax. Not directly from Romney himself; but the Public Purse winds up with the money, all the same. Meanwhile, businesses sold more equipment; workers built more factories & widgets; and customers got to buy more widgets. Taxes are paid. Business is done.

Your complaints are .... ?

 

[Widdekind]

Taking taxes (government revenues) is not the same as spending taxes (government expenditures). On a cash-flow statement, they occur on opposite sides of the page.

First, taking taxes is taking people's money. It's organized robbery & theft. Taxation should be absolutely blind to anything but money -- a 10% flat-rate tax treats every dollar exactly the same. No matter if spent by man or woman, young or old, black or white. Otherwise, you are imposing prejudice through taxes, you are "calling the tax police" on particular people, for particular reasons.

Second, spending taxes is for the Public benefit. Spending taxes benefits Society. That is where, on purpose, particular people are singled out, for particular reasons ("Public assistance for the needy").

Equitable, neutral, flat-rate taxes (on the "revenue side"); plus progressive Public programs (on the "expenses side"); is legitimate. Progressive Public policy should promote particular programs, to benefit Society. Promoting programs means giving them money, by spending. Public funding can be "progressive".

Conversely, "progressive taxes" are a mis-leading mis-nomer. Taxes take; taxes penalize; taxes demote. What "progressive" policy could possibly be implemented, by demoting & penalizing ?

Take equitably; give for Public benefit. Tax blindly without bias or prejudice; spend for Social betterment. Taxing ("revenue side") and spending ("expenditure side") are different; they have different impacts (penalizing & demoting; promoting & rewarding); they "say" different things ("less of one, more of the other"). Public policy, to benefit Society, should not "pick on" particular members of that same Society, demoting them with "spite taxes" (much less, then, add the mis-nomer "progressive" to the same "bullying"). Public policy betters Society only by promoting worthy programs. Progressive policy can be based on spending; not on taxing.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Considering that Romney spends only about 1% of his income "at the register", you want Romney to be taxed effectively at 0.1% of his income, while people who live paycheck to paycheck are taxed at a rate a 100 times higher.

give me a straight answer --

what does Romney do with his money? Give me his cash-flow statement:

Revenues
lots & lots & lots of dollars


Expenses
1 apple, 2 bananas, 3 candy-bars
and _________________________​

watch this (please) -- Romney lends $1M to Acme company, to expand their widget factory; with Romney's loaned $1M, they

• buy new equipment (taxed 10% on sales), and build a new factory (taxed 10% on sales), hiring construction workers to do so (taxed 10% on labor)
• hire more workers, paying them more wages (taxed 10% on labor)
• sell more widgets (all taxed 10% on sales)

Lots of Romney's money winds up taken as tax. Not directly from Romney himself; but the Public Purse winds up with the money, all the same. Meanwhile, businesses sold more equipment; workers built more factories & widgets; and customers got to buy more widgets. Taxes are paid. Business is done.

Your complaints are .... ?

That's the stupidest thing I ever heard. That's like saying a landlord's mortgage company is really the one paying the taxes on his rental income.