It's Official: The Stimulus Isn't a Waste of Money

[asterism]

 

[Dick Tuck]

Interesting. If that was the case one would think they would have presented it that way. Instead, they made a very distinct and specific projection as justification for their very specific and "expert" plan. Then it failed miserably.

That was the case. The Stimulus bill was enacted 5 weeks after Obama took office. The economists had about 3 weeks to develop an advisory plan, with projections.

Interesting. Never saw anything from them stating that this was a rushed plan. They presented their plan as a solution to the problem, complete with authoritative predictions.

If they didn't have enough time to do this correctly why didn't they say so?

What's to say? It was enacted 5 weeks after Obama took office, and it was in the midst of an emergency.

Yes. More time doesn't make a flawed view of the economy any less flawed. A correct view of the economy doesn't change with less time.

That still doesn't make any sense. If you have to act in an emergency, the ability to gather all needed data isn't going to happen.

Only in the fact that they were both huge failures based on faulty economic modelling. 3 million jobs for $500 Billion and unemployment is still above 9%?

Also in case you missed it:

When was the financial system collapsing, when was the "full economic free fall" avoided, and what role did Obama play in that?

Phase 1 of TARP was done by Bush, and Phase 2 by Obama. Obama put the teeth into the bailout, which is why we're getting our money back. I didn't miss anything.

How did Obama put teeth into the bailout?

By converting preferred stock to voting common shares. That lit the fire under the bailed out companies to pay back the tax payer in a hurry.

According to the NBER, the recession ended in June of 2009. I don't see how $92 Billion in increased outlays made that happen but if it did, I don't see the purpose of the rest of the $604 Billion stimulus.

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/99xx/doc9968/hr1.pdf

What's the unemployment rate look like? What's the risk of a double-dip?

 

[Dick Tuck]

 

[Trajan]

That was the case. The Stimulus bill was enacted 5 weeks after Obama took office. The economists had about 3 weeks to develop an advisory plan, with projections.

and why is this even germane HE spent tons of hot air telling us he had to have it NOW.....

"The time for talk is over, the time for action is now." Obama feb 5 2009.

HE created the sense of urgency, The dem house and senate whipped it through, if they weren't ready, this is an excuse? I don't think o, its another shifty excuse to avoid saying simply, we screwed up, the plan has not worked. Period.

 

[Oddball]

 

[asterism]

That was the case. The Stimulus bill was enacted 5 weeks after Obama took office. The economists had about 3 weeks to develop an advisory plan, with projections.

Interesting. Never saw anything from them stating that this was a rushed plan. They presented their plan as a solution to the problem, complete with authoritative predictions.

If they didn't have enough time to do this correctly why didn't they say so?

What's to say? It was enacted 5 weeks after Obama took office, and it was in the midst of an emergency.



That still doesn't make any sense. If you have to act in an emergency, the ability to gather all needed data isn't going to happen.

That's just spin. They were quite sure of themselves and their predictions.

How did Obama put teeth into the bailout?

By converting preferred stock to voting common shares. That lit the fire under the bailed out companies to pay back the tax payer in a hurry.

And that brought us bank from the brink?

According to the NBER, the recession ended in June of 2009. I don't see how $92 Billion in increased outlays made that happen but if it did, I don't see the purpose of the rest of the $604 Billion stimulus.

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/99xx/doc9968/hr1.pdf

What's the unemployment rate look like? What's the risk of a double-dip?

The unemployment rate is high, higher than was predicted. The risk of a double-dip is high. But since the first part of the stimulus didn't work, what's the purpose of the rest?

Now we're going in circles.

 

[william the wie]

The stimulus was a poorly constructed plan that did more harm than good.

 

[asterism]

What now? Stop digging. That's typically the first step of getting out of a hole.

It's really pointless to debate, the results are quite apparent. The stimulus failed and Obama's economic team is in denial.

 

[asterism]

The stimulus was a poorly constructed plan that did more harm than good.

That assumes the purpose was actual economic stimulus instead of more government power.

 

[william the wie]

The stimulus was a poorly constructed plan that did more harm than good.

That assumes the purpose was actual economic stimulus instead of more government power.

You can defend that yourself.

 

[jeffrockit]

CBO is reporting that unemployment would be 1.5-2% higher, had it not been for the stimulus. But the fact remains that all required benchmarks were met, proposals for projects came in under estimate, the howls on waste and fraud turned out to be false, and there was enough money left over to fund 3,000 additional infrastructure projects.

You mean like that Bench Mark that unemployment would not go above 8% if we passed it?

Yeah that worked out GREAT!

No, but that benchmark was based on expert opinion that by doing nothing unemployment would reach 10%, and was arrived at only within weeks of Obama taking office. Things were much worse than thought, and instead of hitting 10%, unemployment would have reached 11.5-12%. It turns out that Freidman, who had the most dire prediction was closest to being right. What would you have done? Many thought we should have just invested more money.

"Expert Opinion", not fact, so there is no way to prove that opinion. And how can they say it was much worse than they thought when Obama, Biden Geithner et al stated it was the worse economic times since the great depression! That means either they were too stupid to realize the size of the problem or they were just making things up as the economy continued to crash. Either way, it shows an ineptness in the administration.
The "well it could have been worse" is not much of a selling point when it comes to re-election and the current polls seem to prove that.

 

[Oddball]

CBO is reporting that unemployment would be 1.5-2% higher, had it not been for the stimulus. But the fact remains that all required benchmarks were met, proposals for projects came in under estimate, the howls on waste and fraud turned out to be false, and there was enough money left over to fund 3,000 additional infrastructure projects.

You mean like that Bench Mark that unemployment would not go above 8% if we passed it?

Yeah that worked out GREAT!

No, but that benchmark was based on expert opinion that by doing nothing unemployment would reach 10%, and was arrived at only within weeks of Obama taking office. Things were much worse than thought, and instead of hitting 10%, unemployment would have reached 11.5-12%. It turns out that Freidman, who had the most dire prediction was closest to being right. What would you have done? Many thought we should have just invested more money.

That post hoc ergo propter hoc dog don't hunt, Bubba.

Get a new line of BS, m'kay?

 

[daveman]

The stimulus was a poorly constructed plan that did more harm than good.

That assumes the purpose was actual economic stimulus instead of more government power.

Indeed. The stimulus was about repaying political special interest groups and buying votes. Period.

 

[Dick Tuck]

You mean like that Bench Mark that unemployment would not go above 8% if we passed it?

Yeah that worked out GREAT!

No, but that benchmark was based on expert opinion that by doing nothing unemployment would reach 10%, and was arrived at only within weeks of Obama taking office. Things were much worse than thought, and instead of hitting 10%, unemployment would have reached 11.5-12%. It turns out that Freidman, who had the most dire prediction was closest to being right. What would you have done? Many thought we should have just invested more money.

"Expert Opinion", not fact, so there is no way to prove that opinion. And how can they say it was much worse than they thought when Obama, Biden Geithner et al stated it was the worse economic times since the great depression! That means either they were too stupid to realize the size of the problem or they were just making things up as the economy continued to crash. Either way, it shows an ineptness in the administration.
The "well it could have been worse" is not much of a selling point when it comes to re-election and the current polls seem to prove that.

Can you show me a single case of a prediction or estimate, that's a fact, before the outcome?

 

[Dick Tuck]

You mean like that Bench Mark that unemployment would not go above 8% if we passed it?

Yeah that worked out GREAT!

No, but that benchmark was based on expert opinion that by doing nothing unemployment would reach 10%, and was arrived at only within weeks of Obama taking office. Things were much worse than thought, and instead of hitting 10%, unemployment would have reached 11.5-12%. It turns out that Freidman, who had the most dire prediction was closest to being right. What would you have done? Many thought we should have just invested more money.

That post hoc ergo propter hoc dog don't hunt, Bubba.

Get a new line of BS, m'kay?

I'd suggest that the post hoc ergo propter hoc line of reasoning is by those who will conclude that anything that happens that's bad, happens because Obama farted. What I've shown is what was happening contemporaneously, and the positions that were taken at that time. There's no post hoc ergo propter hoc argument there.

 

[editec]

There's a whole lotta kids going to school, a whole lotta cops firemen and services personel on the job, and millions of Americans who ate, and who lived in heated homes BECAUSE OF THE STIMULUS.

Sans that stimulus money States would have laid off millions of workers in essantial services.

Where the stimulus fails is in job CREATION.

Why?

Well for one thing there wasn't enough money in it to replace the nearly 8 TRILLION dollars that were lost when the stock market and real estate markets collapsed.

 

[The Rabbi]

There's a whole lotta kids going to school, a whole lotta cops firemen and services personel on the job, and millions of Americans who ate, and who lived in heated homes BECAUSE OF THE STIMULUS.

Sans that stimulus money States would have laid off millions of workers in essantial services.

Where the stimulus fails is in job CREATION.

Why?

Well for one thing there wasn't enough money in it to replace the nearly 8 TRILLION dollars that were lost when the stock market and real estate markets collapsed.

BWAHAHAHHAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YES! It's for the CHILDREN! Yes it is!!!

Boohoo. You really believe this line of bullcrap or are you just hunting for something--anything--that will excuse this monumental waste of resources? The stimulus was for "shovel ready projects" or did you forget that? It wasn't supposed to be yet another gov't transfer program.
How many people lost their jobs because companies saw tax rates and regulatory burdens increasing and closed divisions?

 

[Dick Tuck]

There's a whole lotta kids going to school, a whole lotta cops firemen and services personel on the job, and millions of Americans who ate, and who lived in heated homes BECAUSE OF THE STIMULUS.

Sans that stimulus money States would have laid off millions of workers in essantial services.

Where the stimulus fails is in job CREATION.

Why?

Well for one thing there wasn't enough money in it to replace the nearly 8 TRILLION dollars that were lost when the stock market and real estate markets collapsed.

BWAHAHAHHAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YES! It's for the CHILDREN! Yes it is!!!

Boohoo. You really believe this line of bullcrap or are you just hunting for something--anything--that will excuse this monumental waste of resources? The stimulus was for "shovel ready projects" or did you forget that? It wasn't supposed to be yet another gov't transfer program.
How many people lost their jobs because companies saw tax rates and regulatory burdens increasing and closed divisions?

The fact remains that unemployment would be 1.5-2.0% greater, had it not been for the stimulus.

 

[SFC Ollie]

You cannot prove that as fact.


Now tell us, if the stimulus was so important that it had to be passed immediately, why is it that parts of it weren't even planned to take effect for several years later?

 

[Dick Tuck]

You cannot prove that as fact.

No, but I can support it strongly, by a preponderance of evidence and several analysis, including the independent, nonpartisan CBO report.

Now tell us, if the stimulus was so important that it had to be passed immediately, why is it that parts of it weren't even planned to take effect for several years later?

Because Obama didn't buy into Bush style, no-bid, contracting to cronies, and the RFP, proposal, and award process went by the book. Can you build a road or a bridge tomorrow? No, it's going to take a a few years. I don't see what's so tough to understand about that.