It's occured to me...

[Bullypulpit]

...That many who claim to be Christians seem to be following the teachings found in the Old Testament, which is essentially Jewish Cannon and Law. They also adhere to the apocalyptic teachings of the Manichean Heresy, which Augustine tried to stamp out when he converted to Christianity.

So, are those claiming to be Christian really Manicheans...? Or are they Jewish...? Or are they something else entirely...? Any thoughts...?

My thanks to my wife (Catholic) for bringing this up.

 

[Annie]

...That many who claim to be Christians seem to be following the teachings found in the Old Testament, which is essentially Jewish Cannon and Law. They also adhere to the apocalyptic teachings of the Manichean Heresy, which Augustine tried to stamp out when he converted to Christianity.

So, are those claiming to be Christian really Manicheans...? Or are they Jewish...? Or are they something else entirely...? Any thoughts...?

My thanks to my wife (Catholic) for bringing this up.

OMG, I have to say that a Bully post echoes some of my own thoughts while reading the religion section(s), but that's probably because he has a smart wife. Who would have thought? :shocked:

I've noticed some of the same things, but not being versed enough, have avoided and will continue to avoid getting into discussions relating to these matters. I will be interested to read some of the responses though.

 

[NewGuy]

You have to remember what falls under the misused term "Christian".

Like any other word origin or definition, it would be implied that a Chirstian is one who follows Christ.

Mormons are "Christian". They have distorted truth by creating their own books and follow a theology completely different and "superceding" Christ.

Jehova witnesses are "Christian" but also do not follow Christ, but the Watchtower Society which has taken the role of Christ.

The catholic church has done a similar power structure move with the pope as the JWs with the Watchtower society.

Old Testament WAS of God, yet unless one follows and believes in New Testament, they cannot be Christian as the New Testament is ALL ABOUT Christ and the new covenant.

Lastly, most who are claiming to be Christian miss an important detail in regard to Old Testament:
Old Testament was a covenant with the Jews.
New Testament is where Christ has come to fulfil the Old Testament and replace it with a new one where GENTILES and Jews now have a salvation plan as he has paid a debt for all mankind. No more is Old Testament law to be law. While it is commanded the COMMANDMENTS be followed, it is no longer necessary for salvation, and all of the cleansig ritualistic practices have been abolished.

SO, i am in agreement with Bully....(ouch) and Kathianne. It is clear most who claim "Christianity" have no clue what they are talking about.

It just makes a feel good label where man can attempt to reach God on man's terms instead of letting God reach man on God's terms.

 

[DKSuddeth]

It just makes a feel good label where man can attempt to reach God on man's terms instead of letting God reach man on God's terms.

I thought it was Man reaching God on God's terms, not any other way.

 

[NewGuy]

I thought it was Man reaching God on God's terms, not any other way.

God sent Christ to pay the ultimate debt for man's breaking away.

Man cannot send anyone to do anything for salvation.

Therefore, the gift has been offered.

It has been offered by God.

God is therefore reaching man as termed by God.

 

[5stringJeff]

...That many who claim to be Christians seem to be following the teachings found in the Old Testament, which is essentially Jewish Cannon and Law. They also adhere to the apocalyptic teachings of the Manichean Heresy, which Augustine tried to stamp out when he converted to Christianity.

So, are those claiming to be Christian really Manicheans...? Or are they Jewish...? Or are they something else entirely...? Any thoughts...?

My thanks to my wife (Catholic) for bringing this up.

First, the Old Testament. The OT has always been considered by Christians to be of divine inspiration. Jesus quoted from the OT extensively, as did the Apostles. The New Testament makes it clear that the old covenant of the OT Law was replaced by the new covenant of grace, brought on through Christ's death and resurrection (read the book of Hebrews for an exposition on this). While the covenant changed, God's moral precepts did not change; for example, we read in both testaments about not worshipping other gods, not stealing, not committing adultery, etc.

Second, the Manichean Heresy. I had to Google it, but for what I read, Mani's fallacy was the assumption of Duality, i.e. that good and evil, God and Satan, are two equally powerful forces, and that good/God just happens to win in the end. This is not at all what the Bible teaches. God is portrayed in both the OT and NT as supremely powerful, and the devil is portrayed in both as powerful, yet subordinate to God's power. The apocalyptic occurences of Manichaean teaching basically say that good will win and all sinners and forces of evil will suffer eternally in hell. This is quite similar to what the Bible teaches; however, since Mani started teaching around 244 AD, and the book of Revelation was written around 95-100 AD, it would be more accurate to say that Mani borrowed from Christianity, not the other way around - especially since Mani borrowed many ideas from ancient Chaldean religions, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, etc.

 

[5stringJeff]

You have to remember what falls under the misused term "Christian".

Like any other word origin or definition, it would be implied that a Chirstian is one who follows Christ.

Mormons are "Christian". They have distorted truth by creating their own books and follow a theology completely different and "superceding" Christ.

Jehova witnesses are "Christian" but also do not follow Christ, but the Watchtower Society which has taken the role of Christ.

The catholic church has done a similar power structure move with the pope as the JWs with the Watchtower society.

Old Testament WAS of God, yet unless one follows and believes in New Testament, they cannot be Christian as the New Testament is ALL ABOUT Christ and the new covenant.

Lastly, most who are claiming to be Christian miss an important detail in regard to Old Testament:
Old Testament was a covenant with the Jews.
New Testament is where Christ has come to fulfil the Old Testament and replace it with a new one where GENTILES and Jews now have a salvation plan as he has paid a debt for all mankind. No more is Old Testament law to be law. While it is commanded the COMMANDMENTS be followed, it is no longer necessary for salvation, and all of the cleansig ritualistic practices have been abolished.

SO, i am in agreement with Bully....(ouch) and Kathianne. It is clear most who claim "Christianity" have no clue what they are talking about.

It just makes a feel good label where man can attempt to reach God on man's terms instead of letting God reach man on God's terms.

NG, I would agree with everything you said, except that I would say that Mormons and JW's claim to be Christian. I certainly would not label them Christian based on their teachings, which are anti-thetical to orthodox Christian teachings.

 

[NewGuy]

NG, I would agree with everything you said, except that I would say that Mormons and JW's claim to be Christian. I certainly would not label them Christian based on their teachings, which are anti-thetical to orthodox Christian teachings.

Good catch, sorry I left that critical part out. I mulled it over after I posted it and thought maybe it would be missed.

I should have realized you would catch it.

 

[DKSuddeth]

God sent Christ to pay the ultimate debt for man's breaking away.

Man cannot send anyone to do anything for salvation.

Therefore, the gift has been offered.

It has been offered by God.

God is therefore reaching man as termed by God.

It could also be said that the gift has been offered by god, therefore, its mans responsibility to pursue it on those (gods)terms.

 

[NewGuy]

It could also be said that the gift has been offered by god, therefore, its mans responsibility to pursue it on those (gods)terms.

The logic would dictate that IF God stated there were anything to do but make a decision with all of your heart.

Decisions require no actions, nor pursuance.

 

[HGROKIT]

The only thing I would add, is that many do not study the Old Testament. I believe this a mistake mostly from an historical perspective. Despite the prophecies (which is a whole other thread), the hitsory of the book plays a big part in understanding the contect of the New Testament.

No link, just my opinion.

 

[NewGuy]

The only thing I would add, is that many do not study the Old Testament. I believe this a mistake mostly from an historical perspective. Despite the prophecies (which is a whole other thread), the hitsory of the book plays a big part in understanding the contect of the New Testament.

No link, just my opinion.

Good point. It actually is the instruction set as to how and why the foundation was poured. I would argue it is required information. -For true understanding of the New Testament, not salvation.

 

[HGROKIT]

Good point. It actually is the instruction set as to how and why the foundation was poured. I would argue it is required information. -For true understanding of the New Testament, not salvation.

Agreed.

Geez, my spelling and typing sucks!

 

[NewGuy]

Morning fingers. My favorite disorder.

:cof:

-Wait, that can be misinterpreted.

 

[HGROKIT]

Morning fingers. My favorite disorder.

:cof:

-Wait, that can be misinterpreted.

Only in a Blue moon :teeth:

 

[Annie]

Morning fingers. My favorite disorder.

:cof:

-Wait, that can be misinterpreted.

 

[NewGuy]

Only in a Blue moon :teeth:

 

[mattskramer]

...That many who claim to be Christians seem to be following the teachings found in the Old Testament, which is essentially Jewish Cannon and Law. They also adhere to the apocalyptic teachings of the Manichean Heresy, which Augustine tried to stamp out when he converted to Christianity.

So, are those claiming to be Christian really Manicheans...? Or are they Jewish...? Or are they something else entirely...? Any thoughts...?

My thanks to my wife (Catholic) for bringing this up.

Some Protestants say that Catholics are not true Christians. Some Catholics say that Protestants are not true Christians. Some people who apply a literal interpretation to the Bible say that those who don't apply a literal interpretation are not true Christians. Some people who apply a figurative interpretation to parts of the Bible say that "literalists" are lost in the minutia. The heck with it. If someone claims to be a Christian so be it. I am not going to judge his heart or his mind on this issue. If God exists, he (she or it) will be the ultimate judge.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Some Protestants say that Catholics are not true Christians. Some Catholics say that Protestants are not true Christians. Some people who apply a literal interpretation to the Bible say that those who don't apply a literal interpretation are not true Christians. Some people who apply a figurative interpretation to parts of the Bible say that "literalists" are lost in the minutia. The heck with it. If someone claims to be a Christian so be it. I am not going to judge his heart or his mind on this issue. If God exists, he (she or it) will be the ultimate judge.

And these wide disparities in interpretation show just how unfit religion is to serve as the foundation of a society. Rather than consider the real needs, in this world, of the indviduals who make up such a society, it is the whims of a capricious deity that are considered...any real consequences to real people are considered irrelevant in that the moral payoff lies in some imagined, fanciful afterlife.

The moral tenets of any religion may serve as guides to moral behavior, but not as absolute, inviolable laws.

 

[5stringJeff]

And these wide disparities in interpretation show just how unfit religion is to serve as the foundation of a society. Rather than consider the real needs, in this world, of the indviduals who make up such a society, it is the whims of a capricious deity that are considered...any real consequences to real people are considered irrelevant in that the moral payoff lies in some imagined, fanciful afterlife.

The moral tenets of any religion may serve as guides to moral behavior, but not as absolute, inviolable laws.

Good to see that you are responding to the posts that you agree with, but ifnoring those that contradict your opinions with facts.