It's a whole new ballgame!

[Richard-H]

Pretty much everything that everyone has and is arguing on this message board and throughout the country is now superfluous.

We are now in the beginning of an uncontrolled wildfire that's storming through western civilization's economic system. So far they cannot isolate and contain it. Hopefully, they will, but it's I'd guess there's of 75% chance against it.

The entire financial basis of of the West's economy consists of interdependant investments by large corporations (i.e. institutional investors).
As one institution falls, it brings down hundreds of others.

The ONLY thing that matters in this election is which candidate can best implement CATASTROPHIC ECONOMIC CRISIS MANAGEMENT. Which one is willing to stay ahead of the curve of this economic crisis by implementing RADICAL economic measures. Those measure may be reversed as the crisis subsides, but if they are not implemented we are not only going to have an 'economic' crisis, but the largest HUMANITARIAN CRISIS THE WORLD HAS EVER KNOWN.

Yes, the sky really is falling.

 

[Chris]

But John McCain says that the economy is "fundamentally sound."

 

[editec]

I warned people on Sunday night that Lehman was going down.

I noted that same night that AIG is toast.

They freaking confiscated AIG, for gods sakes.

Do our board mates NOT realize that?

Apparently not, Richard-H.

I'm glad there's at least a few of us on this board who understand how weird the relationship between the banks and the government has become in the last few weeks.

It appears that the rest of this crowd is still so enamored slinging shit at each other over the shadow puppet show that is our election, they don't realize the theater is on fire.

Can you believe the way they dealt with AIG?

These are free market capitalists!?!

If any neo-cons asshole on this board ever has the unmitigated termitity to tell me they or their party are free market capitalists I'm going to laugh in their ignorant faces.

The Fed took over AIG like stormtroopers. AIG stockholders and debtors got screwed but not kissed.


What country are we living in, Richard?

Seriously, I have no idea, anymore.

People are buying T-bills as a flight to safety?

Are they for real?

Based on what just happened to AIG, there is no safe haven from the government averice, right now.



The risk of these real estate bonds is not so bad, but since the market is dead, nobody can prove it.

Every bank holding those bonds is at risk of not seeming liquid and being taken over if they keep playing this accounting fiasco out.

 

[dilloduck]

I warned people on Sunday night that Lehman was going down.

I noted that same night that AIG is toast.

The freaking confiscated AIG, for gods sakes.

Do these people NOT realize that?

Apparently not, Richard-H.

I'm glad there's at least a few of us on this board who understand how weird the relationship between the market and the government has become in the last few weeks.

It appears that the rest of this crowd is still so enabled slinging shit at each other over the shadow puppet show that is our election, they don't realize the theater is on fire.

Can you believe the way they dealt with AIG?

These are free market capitalists!?!

If any neo-cons asshole on this board ever has the unmitigated termitity to tell me they or their party are free market capitalists I'm going to laugh in their ignorant faces.

The Fed took over AIG like stormtroopers.

The Fed is now allowing savings to be part of banks' capitilization (this from yesterday's post that you posted, right?) ?!

What country are we living in, Richard?

Seriously, I have no idea, anymore.

chill out you ninny--what did you expect people to do to stop it ???

 

[del]

Pretty much everything that everyone has and is arguing on this message board and throughout the country is now superfluous.

We are now in the beginning of an uncontrolled wildfire that's storming through western civilization's economic system. So far they cannot isolate and contain it. Hopefully, they will, but it's I'd guess there's of 75% chance against it.

The entire financial basis of of the West's economy consists of interdependant investments by large corporations (i.e. institutional investors).
As one institution falls, it brings down hundreds of others.

The ONLY thing that matters in this election is which candidate can best implement CATASTROPHIC ECONOMIC CRISIS MANAGEMENT. Which one is willing to stay ahead of the curve of this economic crisis by implementing RADICAL economic measures. Those measure may be reversed as the crisis subsides, but if they are not implemented we are not only going to have an 'economic' crisis, but the largest HUMANITARIAN CRISIS THE WORLD HAS EVER KNOWN.

Yes, the sky really is falling.

thanks for keeping a level head and an open mind.

 

[Chris]

I warned people on Sunday night that Lehman was going down.

I noted that same night that AIG is toast.

They freaking confiscated AIG, for gods sakes.

Do our board mates NOT realize that?

Apparently not, Richard-H.

I'm glad there's at least a few of us on this board who understand how weird the relationship between the banks and the government has become in the last few weeks.

It appears that the rest of this crowd is still so enamored slinging shit at each other over the shadow puppet show that is our election, they don't realize the theater is on fire.

Can you believe the way they dealt with AIG?

These are free market capitalists!?!

If any neo-cons asshole on this board ever has the unmitigated termitity to tell me they or their party are free market capitalists I'm going to laugh in their ignorant faces.

The Fed took over AIG like stormtroopers. AIG stockholders and debtors got screwed but not kissed.


What country are we living in, Richard?

Seriously, I have no idea, anymore.

People are buying T-bills as a flight to safety?

Are they for real?

Based on what just happened to AIG, there is no safe haven from the government averice, right now.



The risk of these real estate bonds is not so bad, but since the market is dead, nobody can prove it.

Every bank holding those bonds is at risk of not seeming liquid and being taken over if they keep playing this accounting fiasco out.

Nice post.

George Bush and his gang of idiots have almost destroyed America. Let's stop them before it's too late.

Go Obama!

 

[Richard-H]

That's the weird thing about 'free-market' capitalism - it has a down side equally as bad as it's upside is good.

Right now we need a government that will prepare for the WORST. If it doesn't happen - hey that's great. But if they aren't prepared we are all in for HELL.

The top priorities of te government should be:

-Keeping people in their homes - do not let mass homelessness happen.
-Keep people in jobs - keep production going and don't let them fall into listless existence
-keep the fundamental products and service going - food, heating oil, medical services, schooling etc.

We may go thru a period unlike we have ever imagined. But, with good crisis management, we can return the economy to what it once was.

If they government consistently acts in a reactive instaed of a proactive way, we will all be screwed.

 

[Navy1960]

I love how democrats are trying to distance themselves from this mess on Wall Street. as if they had nothing to do with it. Lets see who is the head of the Banking Commmitee? Thats right, Barney Frank a democrat, oh yes, in the Seante, lets see, who is that, Chris Dodd, , why yes another democrat, this one happens to be a democrat who has his hands so deep in PAC money from Fannie/Freddie he is no. 1 on the list. Same guy is on the VIP customer list at Countrywide and had to give back money he took on under the table loans. Lets see, , now the democrats are out there blaming Phil Gramm because of the S.900 passed in 1999. I wonder who signed that and said it was a great steep forward for progress? Oh yes, thats right, Bill Clinton, another Democrat. What was your current candidate doing three years ago when John McCain called out the warning signs on this? Well he was asking for low interest loans from Fannie/Freddie for poor people. So this righteous anger over what the Republicans have done, is a complete bunch of of manure. Barack Obama is pointing fingers on his webpage at McCain for his asoication with Charlie Black, but you hear nothing of the numereous people that work on his campaign i.e. the VP vetting of Joe Biden etc etc .etc. . and the fact that who is number #2 on the PAC money hit parade? why yes thats Barack Obama too. This doesn't matter though... It's all about *change* thought right?

 

[oreo]

But John McCain says that the economy is "fundamentally sound."

Nice try--but McCain stated--that our work force, meaning the American working class people are fundamentally strong--which is correct. McCain never said our economy is fundamentally strong. Obama picked it up & ran with for people like you, who really do not pay attention. In fact he counts on people like you.

McCain has repeatedly stated that our economy is very shakey & that he knows there are Americans suffering.

It's not the American people that have screwed this one up, it's the government that has done it.

The Government is not the SOLUTION, it's the PROBLEM! "Ronald Reagan"

How much further evidence do we need?

 

[oreo]

That's the weird thing about 'free-market' capitalism - it has a down side equally as bad as it's upside is good.

Right now we need a government that will prepare for the WORST. If it doesn't happen - hey that's great. But if they aren't prepared we are all in for HELL.

The top priorities of te government should be:

-Keeping people in their homes - do not let mass homelessness happen.
-Keep people in jobs - keep production going and don't let them fall into listless existence
-keep the fundamental products and service going - food, heating oil, medical services, schooling etc.

We may go thru a period unlike we have ever imagined. But, with good crisis management, we can return the economy to what it once was.

If they government consistently acts in a reactive instaed of a proactive way, we will all be screwed.

If the government would have stayed out of the Mortgage Loan business we wouldn't be in this mess, would we? Don't blame "free-market capital"--that works, our government doesn't.

An example--if you have a small town banker looking at you for a mortage loan, & this bank does not have the US government guaranteeing your mortgage loan, you will be scrutinized as to whether or not you can re-pay the loan. If your credit is bad, if you have no down payment, & you can not afford to repay the loan you don't get the loan. This is the way is it suppose to work. It's worked for decades, until the Federal Government got involved in the mortgage loan business.

I really don't feel like bailing out people who KNOWINGLY bought homes they could not afford in the first place--or placed a bet on long term interest rates, that they would go down & not go up. In other words, I don't think it's up to us the taxpayers of this country to insure for STUPID people. I also don't feel like bailing out investors on their flip & turn for PROFIT homes, that they never even lived in. I struggle to make my mortgage & bills each month, like 94 million other homeowners in this country who are not in fore-closure. If you want to pay for them, dig out your own check book & do it.

Imagine the Federal Government getting involved in Universal Health care, like Barack Obama is proposing.

 

[Richard-H]

I love how democrats are trying to distance themselves from this mess on Wall Street. as if they had nothing to do with it. Lets see who is the head of the Banking Commmitee? Thats right, Barney Frank a democrat, oh yes, in the Seante, lets see, who is that, Chris Dodd, , why yes another democrat, this one happens to be a democrat who has his hands so deep in PAC money from Fannie/Freddie he is no. 1 on the list. Same guy is on the VIP customer list at Countrywide and had to give back money he took on under the table loans. Lets see, , now the democrats are out there blaming Phil Gramm because of the S.900 passed in 1999. I wonder who signed that and said it was a great steep forward for progress? Oh yes, thats right, Bill Clinton, another Democrat. What was your current candidate doing three years ago when John McCain called out the warning signs on this? Well he was asking for low interest loans from Fannie/Freddie for poor people. So this righteous anger over what the Republicans have done, is a complete bunch of of manure. Barack Obama is pointing fingers on his webpage at McCain for his asoication with Charlie Black, but you hear nothing of the numereous people that work on his campaign i.e. the VP vetting of Joe Biden etc etc .etc. . and the fact that who is number #2 on the PAC money hit parade? why yes thats Barack Obama too. This doesn't matter though... It's all about *change* thought right?

Wow, that's really intelligent. At a time that our civilization is on the brink of disaster all you want to do is start the political finger pointing.

Wall St. and the N.Y. financial industry are overwhelming Republican. We have has a Republican dominated governmet for 6 of the past 8 years and have been grossly favoring the free-market philosophy since 1980.

Isn't it the Republicans that profess 'personal responsibilty'? Maybe it's time you man-up and for once take responsibilty for your actions.

Yes, there are a lot of Democrats that have catered to the Republican economic philosophy since the days of Reagan, but it has been the Republican's that led us into being a country of mindless, greedy sleaze-balls.

 

[gonegolfin]

It appears that the rest of this crowd is still so enamored slinging shit at each other over the shadow puppet show that is our election, they don't realize the theater is on fire.

This is a good analogy. It has been a long time since people have had their eye on the ball.

Brian

 

[Chris]

If the government would have stayed out of the Mortgage Loan business we wouldn't be in this mess, would we? Don't blame "free-market capital"--that works, our government doesn't.

An example--if you have a small town banker looking at you for a mortage loan, & this bank does not have the US government guaranteeing your mortgage loan, you will be scrutinized as to whether or not you can re-pay the loan. If your credit is bad, if you have no down payment, & you can not afford to repay the loan you don't get the loan. This is the way is it suppose to work. It's worked for decades, until the Federal Government got involved in the mortgage loan business.

I really don't feel like bailing out people who KNOWINGLY bought homes they could not afford in the first place--or placed a bet on long term interest rates, that they would go down & not go up. In other words, I don't think it's up to us the taxpayers of this country to insure for STUPID people. I also don't feel like bailing out investors on their flip & turn for PROFIT homes, that they never even lived in. I struggle to make my mortgage & bills each month, like 94 million other homeowners in this country who are not in fore-closure. If you want to pay for them, dig out your own check book & do it.

Imagine the Federal Government getting involved in Universal Health care, like Barack Obama is proposing.

We already have universal healthcare, moron.

It's called the emergency room.

 

[Chris]

Nice try--but McCain stated--that our work force, meaning the American working class people are fundamentally strong--which is correct. McCain never said our economy is fundamentally strong. Obama picked it up & ran with for people like you, who really do not pay attention. In fact he counts on people like you.

McCain has repeatedly stated that our economy is very shakey & that he knows there are Americans suffering.

It's not the American people that have screwed this one up, it's the government that has done it.

The Government is not the SOLUTION, it's the PROBLEM! "Ronald Reagan"

How much further evidence do we need?

No, Ronald Reagan and George Bush are the problem.

They created 90% of the National Debt.

ReaganBushDebt.org

 

[Bern80]

Wow, that's really intelligent. At a time that our civilization is on the brink of disaster all you want to do is start the political finger pointing.

Wall St. and the N.Y. financial industry are overwhelming Republican. We have has a Republican dominated governmet for 6 of the past 8 years and have been grossly favoring the free-market philosophy since 1980.

Isn't it the Republicans that profess 'personal responsibilty'? Maybe it's time you man-up and for once take responsibilty for your actions.

Yes, there are a lot of Democrats that have catered to the Republican economic philosophy since the days of Reagan, but it has been the Republican's that led us into being a country of mindless, greedy sleaze-balls.

Government did not cause this problem. If you have watched any headlines today, they are all pointing to the same thing. The mortgage industry. Government doesn't control any of those. Broadley, you can look at three components that caused this perfect storm.

1) Housing prices were overly inflated, people were able to sell houses for more then they were worth.

2) Then the mortgage industry went absolutely berserk. I am five years out of undergrad and I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the number of classmates that went into the lending business right out of college. Lending institutions could not hire people fast enough. It wasn't just houses, my friends were selling no down, 120% of value loans to people for fucking toys, not to mention homes.

3) The last factor is something that I have said over and over again on these boards. We are an instant gratification society. We want things now as easily possible with rarely a thought to the future and has finely bitten people in the ass. The overriding factor though is still the mortgage loaning. People took loans with very risky terms for homes they otherwise would not be able to afford. The terms of these loans (no down, no interest, ARM, etc.) allowed people to get into their 'dream homes' right now. People are generally optimistic and we always think things will be better tomorrow. People believe with no real evidence that either inerest rates won't go up or somehow they will come into more money that help them more easily manage that burden.

I almost never buy into what the main stream media is talking about. I consider most things over exaggerations. The problem with economics is that a hell of a lot of people buy into it. So instead of one isolated incident, the news of one turned into two. AIG got bailed out and the NEWS of that event caused the stock market to plummet. It's a simple choice. Everyone could have just as easily said "nope I'm keeping my money where it is". But in the face of bad news everyone panicked. The only way people seem to know to keep there money safe is stick it back into their own pockets and so begins a massive self off with the next person undercutting the last starting a free fall.

I don't believe one party or another caused this or a government caused it or economic system caused it. I think the mounting evidence is that maybe too many of us are too damned shortsighted and just plain to stupid to compete in a free market, capitilstic economy

 

[editec]

chill out you ninny--what did you expect people to do to stop it ???

What an ignorant retort, Dill.

 

[editec]

I love how democrats are trying to distance themselves from this mess on Wall Street. as if they had nothing to do with it. Lets see who is the head of the Banking Commmitee? Thats right, Barney Frank a democrat, oh yes, in the Seante, lets see, who is that, Chris Dodd, , why yes another democrat, this one happens to be a democrat who has his hands so deep in PAC money from Fannie/Freddie he is no. 1 on the list. Same guy is on the VIP customer list at Countrywide and had to give back money he took on under the table loans. Lets see, , now the democrats are out there blaming Phil Gramm because of the S.900 passed in 1999. I wonder who signed that and said it was a great steep forward for progress? Oh yes, thats right, Bill Clinton, another Democrat. What was your current candidate doing three years ago when John McCain called out the warning signs on this? Well he was asking for low interest loans from Fannie/Freddie for poor people. So this righteous anger over what the Republicans have done, is a complete bunch of of manure. Barack Obama is pointing fingers on his webpage at McCain for his asoication with Charlie Black, but you hear nothing of the numereous people that work on his campaign i.e. the VP vetting of Joe Biden etc etc .etc. . and the fact that who is number #2 on the PAC money hit parade? why yes thats Barack Obama too. This doesn't matter though... It's all about *change* thought right?

You really DO believe that people like me think this is a partisan issue, don't you?

 

[editec]

If the government would have stayed out of the Mortgage Loan business we wouldn't be in this mess, would we? Don't blame "free-market capital"--that works, our government doesn't.

You really do not have a clue what the problem is, do you?

The mortgage systems worked fine when it was regulated.

It was the removal of the regulations which caused this problem.

In other words the freeER market went where unregulated markets so often go...into bubble mode..and naturally that bubble inevitably burst.

An example--if you have a small town banker looking at you for a mortage loan, & this bank does not have the US government guaranteeing your mortgage loan, you will be scrutinized as to whether or not you can re-pay the loan. If your credit is bad, if you have no down payment, & you can not afford to repay the loan you don't get the loan. This is the way is it suppose to work. It's worked for decades, until the Federal Government got involved in the mortgage loan business.

You have been misinformed.

Fannie Mae is a PRIVATE company. It has not been a creature of the government since 1968.

Do TRY to keep up, would you?

I really don't feel like bailing out people who KNOWINGLY bought homes they could not afford in the first place--or placed a bet on long term interest rates, that they would go down & not go up. In other words, I don't think it's up to us the taxpayers of this country to insure for STUPID people. I also don't feel like bailing out investors on their flip & turn for PROFIT homes, that they never even lived in. I struggle to make my mortgage & bills each month, like 94 million other homeowners in this country who are not in fore-closure. If you want to pay for them, dig out your own check book & do it.

They're not bailing out "people who kniwingly bought homes they cannot afford" .

They're bailing out banks and insurance companies which screwed up.

Are you a complete troll, or would you like to have a real discussion about this event which is so important to all of us, Oreo?

 

[editec]

Government did not cause this problem. If you have watched any headlines today, they are all pointing to the same thing. The mortgage industry. Government doesn't control any of those. Broadley, you can look at three components that caused this perfect storm.

1) Housing prices were overly inflated, people were able to sell houses for more then they were worth.

True

2) Then the mortgage industry went absolutely berserk. I am five years out of undergrad and I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the number of classmates that went into the lending business right out of college. Lending institutions could not hire people fast enough. It wasn't just houses, my friends were selling no down, 120% of value loans to people for fucking toys, not to mention homes.

Yes.

3) The last factor is something that I have said over and over again on these boards. We are an instant gratification society. We want things now as easily possible with rarely a thought to the future and has finely bitten people in the ass. The overriding factor though is still the mortgage loaning. People took loans with very risky terms for homes they otherwise would not be able to afford. The terms of these loans (no down, no interest, ARM, etc.) allowed people to get into their 'dream homes' right now. People are generally optimistic and we always think things will be better tomorrow. People believe with no real evidence that either inerest rates won't go up or somehow they will come into more money that help them more easily manage that burden.

Yes. But do bear in mind that the banks made it possible because the DEREGULATED the rules for lending. The PEOPLE could not do that, it took the BANKS to ram that deregulation through congress.

I almost never buy into what the main stream media is talking about. I consider most things over exaggerations. The problem with economics is that a hell of a lot of people buy into it. So instead of one isolated incident, the news of one turned into two. AIG got bailed out and the NEWS of that event caused the stock market to plummet.

I am informed by people with an understanding of the market far superior to mine, that had AIG gone down the market might have dropped 20% or more yesterday.

It's a simple choice. Everyone could have just as easily said "nope I'm keeping my money where it is". But in the face of bad news everyone panicked. The only way people seem to know to keep there money safe is stick it back into their own pockets and so begins a massive self off with the next person undercutting the last starting a free fall.

AIG didn't go down because there is a run on the banks.

AIG went down because the real estate-based securities they held as assets have an UNKNOWN valuation in today's real estate market.

Understand that AIG might NOT be insolvent. It just cannot KNOW what those assets were worth and the regulators which establish values forced them to reassess the value of their holdings to the point that they were insolvent.

The market for real estate based financial insturments is in such panic, that no bank or company holding them can find a BUYER for them right now. Hence, without a viable market nobody can tell us what they're worth.

AIG probably is NOT insolvent. The government overreacted here, I think.

The mistakes and reactions to them are now coming so fast and furious, that it's damned near impossible to figure out what's happening.

The Fed does NOT know what it's doing because there is no previous historical record to establish the right coure of action in this market.

The freeER market that has developed in the last couple decades has created financial instruments that are so complex, and so tenuious from reality that NOBODY really understands what is going on.

That is exactly why these finaical instruments are sitting on the books of companies and the market for them is moribund.

I don't believe one party or another caused this or a government caused it or economic system caused it. I think the mounting evidence is that maybe too many of us are too damned shortsighted and just plain to stupid to compete in a free market, capitilstic economy

I understand your point, but I have to tell you I cannot lay the blame for this on the American buyers of real estate.

It's just way more complex than that.

This is entirely a market-made disaster with the aid of a government which stopped doing its job.

The banks, and the government which gave them free rein to create this TRAGEDY OF THE COMMONS are at fault, but honestly, they do not yet have a plan to stabilize this embroglio because even they don't fully understand it.

Remember this is micro and maco economics, not something so simple as rocket science.

Anyone can predict where a rocket will fall because the laws of physics are completely predictable

NOBODY can predict something so bafflingly complex as a market reaction because the laws of human nature are not easily predicted except in to the MOST obvious cases.

 

[Diuretic]

What's happening is wholesale nationalisation.