It is NOT racism

[Montrovant]

You clearly overestimate how greatly the system is tilted in someone's favor based solely on the color of their skin. Whites that are poor are simply lazy...I bet you would characterize blacks that are poor as being victims of a racist system, wouldn't you?

Nothing but ridiculous generalizations. Your racism mirrors and matches that of the white racists you rail against.

No, you clearly underestimate such things.

Racism in Modern America

Introduction

Modern racism is a form of prejudice against African Americans that developed in the United States after the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s. It characterized by beliefs that racism is not a persistent problem, that African Americans should put forth their own efforts to overcome their situation in society without exceptional assistance, and that African Americans are too demanding and have gotten more than they deserve. At the roots of modern racism are basic beliefs that Blacks violate cherished U.S. values. The idea that the quality of prejudice toward Blacks can shift over time has spawned important generalizations of the theory to other groups, such as women (see the entry titled “Modern Sexism”), recent immigrant groups (including Asians and Latinos in North America and Turks in Europe), the obese, and gays, among others.

The term modern racism introduced in 1981 by John McConahay in the literature on group processes and inter group relations, but the theory behind it had emerged in 1971 with the name symbolic racism. Because modern racism theory was derivative of symbolic racism theory, the two positions were originally closely aligned conceptually and, in fact, difficult to distinguish substantively. However, in recent years, developments in symbolic racism (e.g., concerning the origins of the attitudes) have distinguished the positions more clearly. This entry examines modern racism and relevant criticisms describe measurement tools and contrast the concept with related theories.

Discussion and Analysis

The Nature and Origins of Modern Racism

Modern racism is among the most widespread forms of verbally expressed negative racial attitudes in the United States today. It thought to have replaced, to a substantial degree, older and more blatant forms of prejudice, characterized by beliefs that Blacks are a biologically inferior race and that institutionalized segregation and formal discrimination against Blacks are appropriate social policies. The civil rights movement made these outmoded beliefs largely socially unacceptable, and although conservative racism still exists in the United States, it largely replaced by modern racist beliefs.

Modern racism is also one of the most powerful influences of racial politics in the United States today. It powerfully predicts voting against political candidates who are Black or sympathetic toward Blacks and voting on policies designed to assist Blacks, such as affirmative action and school integration programs. It also strongly influences policies that do not directly mention Blacks but disproportionately impact the African American community, including those involving welfare, unemployment, crime, and the death penalty. It predicts these political attitudes better than conservatism, education, identification as a Democrat or Republican, and, most important, personal interests in the outcomes of a vote. (Hero , 247)

One fundamental characteristic of modern racism is the assumption that it learned during socialization. In other words, people acquire modern racist attitudes through their parents, their peers, and the media. Emerging research suggests that modern racism acquired as early as adolescence (earlier than other political attitudes, such as conservatism) and that it is stable throughout the life span.

Racism In Modern America | Researchomatic

An influential 2004 study found that job seekers with black-sounding names were 50 percent less likely than their white counterparts to get callbacks. The divide held across occupation, industry and employer size. A more recent study found that such a gap applies even to graduates of elite schools like Harvard and Yale. When given the option, most interviewers would take a Dylan over a DeAndre. (Tijani, whose name is West African, said he was a bit surprised at the lack of interviews he was offered.)

Black Unemployment: College Degree Offers Advantages, But No Escape From Racialized Job Markets

Care to explain this Montrovant?

In fact, the unemployment rate in 2013 was lower among whites who never finished high school (9.7 percent) than it was for blacks with some college education (10.5 percent).

For Recent Black College Graduates, a Tougher Road to Employment

Or this?

African-American students need to complete two more levels of education to have the same probability of getting a job as their white peers, a new study by Young Invincibles finds.

The researchers looked at data mainly from the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the U.S. Census, isolating the effects of race and education on unemployment. They found that an African-American male with an associates degree has around the same chance of getting a job as a white male with just a high school diploma. “At every level of education, race impacts a person’s chance of getting a job,” Tom Allison, a research manager and one of the study’s authors, told ThinkProgress.

A Black College Student Has The Same Chances Of Getting A Job As A White High School Dropout

White Convicts As Likely to Be Hired As Blacks Without Criminal Records

However, the study revealed that our society's racism extends even deeper: black applicants with no criminal record were no more likely to get a job than white applicants with criminal records just released from prison! In other words, while whites with criminal records received low rates of positive responses, such response rates were equally low for blacks without a criminal background.

White Convicts As Likely to Be Hired As Blacks Without Criminal Records | DMI Blog

Montrovant, A doesn't overestimate a damn thing.

Well clearly, with a system tilted so heavily in favor of whites, there won't be that many poor whites. After all, the system will ensure they have success. Oh, wait...

Look, I'm not saying the system treats whites and minorities equally. I'm not saying there is no bias against blacks. However, the idea that things are so easy for whites that only laziness can lead to being poor is asinine. It also sounds remarkably like the arguments anti-black racists use about how so many blacks are poor because they are lazy.

Things can be harder in general for blacks without meaning it is easy for anyone who is white.

Of course there will be poor whites. Poor whites are the rubes that wealthy whites use the most to make money. They just tell them that they are better than those other people and keep trying. They give those whites just enough so they cant see whats going on but not enough to really do anything. They tell those whites that if those other people were not taking their jobs they too would be wealthy. Those whites are suffering from the same problem some Black people have. Instead of complaining about Blacks they should get off their asses and stop being lazy. Since they are white they have it 100 x easier.

And all of those black criminals should stop being a bunch of violent thugs and simply follow the law. Do what the police tell you and you won't get shot.

That's the same level of foolishness as saying poor whites are just lazy.

When it comes to blacks you want people to look at the full complexity of things, but with whites, you're perfectly happy saying poor whites are lazy, whites are genetically criminal, etc.

Like I said, good luck with your racism.

From your post I sense you take exception to my generalization that a poor white person is a lazy white person. What would you call it if I constructed a system that devalued whites, killed whites, funneled whites into prison, hired Blacks before whites, gave Blacks more economic support educationally, uplifted Black cultural values, and a Black person could not be successful?

That would be a system of systemic racism. I'm curious, though, how that system existing (and that is a huge oversimplification of the reality, but let's go with it) means whites that are poor must be lazy. Does such a system mean there are plenty of good paying jobs for whites, regardless of where they live, their training, their natural ability, or their intelligence? Does such a system mean that a person who experiences layoffs can simply find another similar job? Does such a system make all whites have the same drive and ambition? Does such a system provide whites with the resources to pay for major medical bills? Etc. etc.

But hey, maybe you really believe every white business owner will hire people merely because they are white, regardless of their qualifications.

Once again: things being worse for blacks does not mean things are easy for all whites.

 

[IM2]

The Income Gap Between Blacks And Whites Has Only Gotten Worse Since The 1960s

Black-white wage gaps are larger today than they were in 1979, but the increase has not occurred along a straight line. During the early 1980s, rising unemployment, declining unionization, and policies such as the failure to raise the minimum wage and lax enforcement of anti-discrimination laws contributed to the growing black-white wage gap. During the late 1990s, the gap shrank due in part to tighter labor markets, which made discrimination more costly, and increases in the minimum wage. Since 2000 the gap has grown again. As of 2015, relative to the average hourly wages of white men with the same education, experience, metro status, and region of residence, black men make 22.0 percent less, and black women make 34.2 percent less. Black women earn 11.7 percent less than their white female counterparts. The widening gap has not affected everyone equally. Young black women (those with 0 to 10 years of experience) have been hardest hit since 2000.

Why it matters: Though the African American experience is not monolithic, our research reveals that changes in black education levels or other observable factors are not the primary reason the gaps are growing. For example, just completing a bachelor’s degree or more will not reduce the black-white wage gap. Indeed the gaps have expanded most for college graduates. Black male college graduates (both those with just a college degree and those who have gone beyond college) newly entering the workforce started the 1980s with less than a 10 percent disadvantage relative to white college graduates but by 2014 similarly educated new entrants were at a roughly 18 percent deficit.

Black-white wage gaps expand with rising wage inequality

 

[Montrovant]

The Income Gap Between Blacks And Whites Has Only Gotten Worse Since The 1960s

Black-white wage gaps are larger today than they were in 1979, but the increase has not occurred along a straight line. During the early 1980s, rising unemployment, declining unionization, and policies such as the failure to raise the minimum wage and lax enforcement of anti-discrimination laws contributed to the growing black-white wage gap. During the late 1990s, the gap shrank due in part to tighter labor markets, which made discrimination more costly, and increases in the minimum wage. Since 2000 the gap has grown again. As of 2015, relative to the average hourly wages of white men with the same education, experience, metro status, and region of residence, black men make 22.0 percent less, and black women make 34.2 percent less. Black women earn 11.7 percent less than their white female counterparts. The widening gap has not affected everyone equally. Young black women (those with 0 to 10 years of experience) have been hardest hit since 2000.

Why it matters: Though the African American experience is not monolithic, our research reveals that changes in black education levels or other observable factors are not the primary reason the gaps are growing. For example, just completing a bachelor’s degree or more will not reduce the black-white wage gap. Indeed the gaps have expanded most for college graduates. Black male college graduates (both those with just a college degree and those who have gone beyond college) newly entering the workforce started the 1980s with less than a 10 percent disadvantage relative to white college graduates but by 2014 similarly educated new entrants were at a roughly 18 percent deficit.

Black-white wage gaps expand with rising wage inequality

I thought I saw a similar chart recently in which Hispanics had dropped below blacks in average income by a bit.

This sort of information is the sort of thing that certainly should be looked at, discussed, and improved upon if possible.

It doesn't in any way indicate that whites have to be lazy to be poor, if that's a point you were trying to make (no idea if it is).

 

[IM2]

No, you clearly underestimate such things.

Racism in Modern America

Introduction

Modern racism is a form of prejudice against African Americans that developed in the United States after the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s. It characterized by beliefs that racism is not a persistent problem, that African Americans should put forth their own efforts to overcome their situation in society without exceptional assistance, and that African Americans are too demanding and have gotten more than they deserve. At the roots of modern racism are basic beliefs that Blacks violate cherished U.S. values. The idea that the quality of prejudice toward Blacks can shift over time has spawned important generalizations of the theory to other groups, such as women (see the entry titled “Modern Sexism”), recent immigrant groups (including Asians and Latinos in North America and Turks in Europe), the obese, and gays, among others.

The term modern racism introduced in 1981 by John McConahay in the literature on group processes and inter group relations, but the theory behind it had emerged in 1971 with the name symbolic racism. Because modern racism theory was derivative of symbolic racism theory, the two positions were originally closely aligned conceptually and, in fact, difficult to distinguish substantively. However, in recent years, developments in symbolic racism (e.g., concerning the origins of the attitudes) have distinguished the positions more clearly. This entry examines modern racism and relevant criticisms describe measurement tools and contrast the concept with related theories.

Discussion and Analysis

The Nature and Origins of Modern Racism

Modern racism is among the most widespread forms of verbally expressed negative racial attitudes in the United States today. It thought to have replaced, to a substantial degree, older and more blatant forms of prejudice, characterized by beliefs that Blacks are a biologically inferior race and that institutionalized segregation and formal discrimination against Blacks are appropriate social policies. The civil rights movement made these outmoded beliefs largely socially unacceptable, and although conservative racism still exists in the United States, it largely replaced by modern racist beliefs.

Modern racism is also one of the most powerful influences of racial politics in the United States today. It powerfully predicts voting against political candidates who are Black or sympathetic toward Blacks and voting on policies designed to assist Blacks, such as affirmative action and school integration programs. It also strongly influences policies that do not directly mention Blacks but disproportionately impact the African American community, including those involving welfare, unemployment, crime, and the death penalty. It predicts these political attitudes better than conservatism, education, identification as a Democrat or Republican, and, most important, personal interests in the outcomes of a vote. (Hero , 247)

One fundamental characteristic of modern racism is the assumption that it learned during socialization. In other words, people acquire modern racist attitudes through their parents, their peers, and the media. Emerging research suggests that modern racism acquired as early as adolescence (earlier than other political attitudes, such as conservatism) and that it is stable throughout the life span.

Racism In Modern America | Researchomatic

An influential 2004 study found that job seekers with black-sounding names were 50 percent less likely than their white counterparts to get callbacks. The divide held across occupation, industry and employer size. A more recent study found that such a gap applies even to graduates of elite schools like Harvard and Yale. When given the option, most interviewers would take a Dylan over a DeAndre. (Tijani, whose name is West African, said he was a bit surprised at the lack of interviews he was offered.)

Black Unemployment: College Degree Offers Advantages, But No Escape From Racialized Job Markets

Care to explain this Montrovant?

In fact, the unemployment rate in 2013 was lower among whites who never finished high school (9.7 percent) than it was for blacks with some college education (10.5 percent).

For Recent Black College Graduates, a Tougher Road to Employment

Or this?

African-American students need to complete two more levels of education to have the same probability of getting a job as their white peers, a new study by Young Invincibles finds.

The researchers looked at data mainly from the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the U.S. Census, isolating the effects of race and education on unemployment. They found that an African-American male with an associates degree has around the same chance of getting a job as a white male with just a high school diploma. “At every level of education, race impacts a person’s chance of getting a job,” Tom Allison, a research manager and one of the study’s authors, told ThinkProgress.

A Black College Student Has The Same Chances Of Getting A Job As A White High School Dropout

White Convicts As Likely to Be Hired As Blacks Without Criminal Records

However, the study revealed that our society's racism extends even deeper: black applicants with no criminal record were no more likely to get a job than white applicants with criminal records just released from prison! In other words, while whites with criminal records received low rates of positive responses, such response rates were equally low for blacks without a criminal background.

White Convicts As Likely to Be Hired As Blacks Without Criminal Records | DMI Blog

Montrovant, A doesn't overestimate a damn thing.

Well clearly, with a system tilted so heavily in favor of whites, there won't be that many poor whites. After all, the system will ensure they have success. Oh, wait...

Look, I'm not saying the system treats whites and minorities equally. I'm not saying there is no bias against blacks. However, the idea that things are so easy for whites that only laziness can lead to being poor is asinine. It also sounds remarkably like the arguments anti-black racists use about how so many blacks are poor because they are lazy.

Things can be harder in general for blacks without meaning it is easy for anyone who is white.

Of course there will be poor whites. Poor whites are the rubes that wealthy whites use the most to make money. They just tell them that they are better than those other people and keep trying. They give those whites just enough so they cant see whats going on but not enough to really do anything. They tell those whites that if those other people were not taking their jobs they too would be wealthy. Those whites are suffering from the same problem some Black people have. Instead of complaining about Blacks they should get off their asses and stop being lazy. Since they are white they have it 100 x easier.

And all of those black criminals should stop being a bunch of violent thugs and simply follow the law. Do what the police tell you and you won't get shot.

That's the same level of foolishness as saying poor whites are just lazy.

When it comes to blacks you want people to look at the full complexity of things, but with whites, you're perfectly happy saying poor whites are lazy, whites are genetically criminal, etc.

Like I said, good luck with your racism.

From your post I sense you take exception to my generalization that a poor white person is a lazy white person. What would you call it if I constructed a system that devalued whites, killed whites, funneled whites into prison, hired Blacks before whites, gave Blacks more economic support educationally, uplifted Black cultural values, and a Black person could not be successful?

That would be a system of systemic racism. I'm curious, though, how that system existing (and that is a huge oversimplification of the reality, but let's go with it) means whites that are poor must be lazy. Does such a system mean there are plenty of good paying jobs for whites, regardless of where they live, their training, their natural ability, or their intelligence? Does such a system mean that a person who experiences layoffs can simply find another similar job? Does such a system make all whites have the same drive and ambition? Does such a system provide whites with the resources to pay for major medical bills? Etc. etc.

But hey, maybe you really believe every white business owner will hire people merely because they are white, regardless of their qualifications.

Once again: things being worse for blacks does not mean things are easy for all whites.

None of this is about every white. Drop the strawman. Unfortunately for you and the fantasy world you appear to live in, there are a whole lot of whites who will only hire whites regardless of qualifications. Things being worse for blacks means things continue being tougher for blacks than for whites no matter what kinds of complexities you want us to consider..

 

[Asclepias]

No, you clearly underestimate such things.

Racism in Modern America

Introduction

Modern racism is a form of prejudice against African Americans that developed in the United States after the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s. It characterized by beliefs that racism is not a persistent problem, that African Americans should put forth their own efforts to overcome their situation in society without exceptional assistance, and that African Americans are too demanding and have gotten more than they deserve. At the roots of modern racism are basic beliefs that Blacks violate cherished U.S. values. The idea that the quality of prejudice toward Blacks can shift over time has spawned important generalizations of the theory to other groups, such as women (see the entry titled “Modern Sexism”), recent immigrant groups (including Asians and Latinos in North America and Turks in Europe), the obese, and gays, among others.

The term modern racism introduced in 1981 by John McConahay in the literature on group processes and inter group relations, but the theory behind it had emerged in 1971 with the name symbolic racism. Because modern racism theory was derivative of symbolic racism theory, the two positions were originally closely aligned conceptually and, in fact, difficult to distinguish substantively. However, in recent years, developments in symbolic racism (e.g., concerning the origins of the attitudes) have distinguished the positions more clearly. This entry examines modern racism and relevant criticisms describe measurement tools and contrast the concept with related theories.

Discussion and Analysis

The Nature and Origins of Modern Racism

Modern racism is among the most widespread forms of verbally expressed negative racial attitudes in the United States today. It thought to have replaced, to a substantial degree, older and more blatant forms of prejudice, characterized by beliefs that Blacks are a biologically inferior race and that institutionalized segregation and formal discrimination against Blacks are appropriate social policies. The civil rights movement made these outmoded beliefs largely socially unacceptable, and although conservative racism still exists in the United States, it largely replaced by modern racist beliefs.

Modern racism is also one of the most powerful influences of racial politics in the United States today. It powerfully predicts voting against political candidates who are Black or sympathetic toward Blacks and voting on policies designed to assist Blacks, such as affirmative action and school integration programs. It also strongly influences policies that do not directly mention Blacks but disproportionately impact the African American community, including those involving welfare, unemployment, crime, and the death penalty. It predicts these political attitudes better than conservatism, education, identification as a Democrat or Republican, and, most important, personal interests in the outcomes of a vote. (Hero , 247)

One fundamental characteristic of modern racism is the assumption that it learned during socialization. In other words, people acquire modern racist attitudes through their parents, their peers, and the media. Emerging research suggests that modern racism acquired as early as adolescence (earlier than other political attitudes, such as conservatism) and that it is stable throughout the life span.

Racism In Modern America | Researchomatic

An influential 2004 study found that job seekers with black-sounding names were 50 percent less likely than their white counterparts to get callbacks. The divide held across occupation, industry and employer size. A more recent study found that such a gap applies even to graduates of elite schools like Harvard and Yale. When given the option, most interviewers would take a Dylan over a DeAndre. (Tijani, whose name is West African, said he was a bit surprised at the lack of interviews he was offered.)

Black Unemployment: College Degree Offers Advantages, But No Escape From Racialized Job Markets

Care to explain this Montrovant?

In fact, the unemployment rate in 2013 was lower among whites who never finished high school (9.7 percent) than it was for blacks with some college education (10.5 percent).

For Recent Black College Graduates, a Tougher Road to Employment

Or this?

African-American students need to complete two more levels of education to have the same probability of getting a job as their white peers, a new study by Young Invincibles finds.

The researchers looked at data mainly from the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the U.S. Census, isolating the effects of race and education on unemployment. They found that an African-American male with an associates degree has around the same chance of getting a job as a white male with just a high school diploma. “At every level of education, race impacts a person’s chance of getting a job,” Tom Allison, a research manager and one of the study’s authors, told ThinkProgress.

A Black College Student Has The Same Chances Of Getting A Job As A White High School Dropout

White Convicts As Likely to Be Hired As Blacks Without Criminal Records

However, the study revealed that our society's racism extends even deeper: black applicants with no criminal record were no more likely to get a job than white applicants with criminal records just released from prison! In other words, while whites with criminal records received low rates of positive responses, such response rates were equally low for blacks without a criminal background.

White Convicts As Likely to Be Hired As Blacks Without Criminal Records | DMI Blog

Montrovant, A doesn't overestimate a damn thing.

Well clearly, with a system tilted so heavily in favor of whites, there won't be that many poor whites. After all, the system will ensure they have success. Oh, wait...

Look, I'm not saying the system treats whites and minorities equally. I'm not saying there is no bias against blacks. However, the idea that things are so easy for whites that only laziness can lead to being poor is asinine. It also sounds remarkably like the arguments anti-black racists use about how so many blacks are poor because they are lazy.

Things can be harder in general for blacks without meaning it is easy for anyone who is white.

Of course there will be poor whites. Poor whites are the rubes that wealthy whites use the most to make money. They just tell them that they are better than those other people and keep trying. They give those whites just enough so they cant see whats going on but not enough to really do anything. They tell those whites that if those other people were not taking their jobs they too would be wealthy. Those whites are suffering from the same problem some Black people have. Instead of complaining about Blacks they should get off their asses and stop being lazy. Since they are white they have it 100 x easier.

And all of those black criminals should stop being a bunch of violent thugs and simply follow the law. Do what the police tell you and you won't get shot.

That's the same level of foolishness as saying poor whites are just lazy.

When it comes to blacks you want people to look at the full complexity of things, but with whites, you're perfectly happy saying poor whites are lazy, whites are genetically criminal, etc.

Like I said, good luck with your racism.

From your post I sense you take exception to my generalization that a poor white person is a lazy white person. What would you call it if I constructed a system that devalued whites, killed whites, funneled whites into prison, hired Blacks before whites, gave Blacks more economic support educationally, uplifted Black cultural values, and a Black person could not be successful?

That would be a system of systemic racism. I'm curious, though, how that system existing (and that is a huge oversimplification of the reality, but let's go with it) means whites that are poor must be lazy. Does such a system mean there are plenty of good paying jobs for whites, regardless of where they live, their training, their natural ability, or their intelligence? Does such a system mean that a person who experiences layoffs can simply find another similar job? Does such a system make all whites have the same drive and ambition? Does such a system provide whites with the resources to pay for major medical bills? Etc. etc.

But hey, maybe you really believe every white business owner will hire people merely because they are white, regardless of their qualifications.

Once again: things being worse for blacks does not mean things are easy for all whites.

It was a simplification for a reason. I dont want to write a manifesto every post.

Now I want you to imagine the system I just described being in effect for centuries. Everything you just mentioned ties into laziness. No good jobs where you live? Get up and move. No training? Get some training. No natural ability? Work harder than everyone else. Lacking intelligence? Then you are probably mentally challenged and the state takes care of you. Get laid off? Yes find another job. Dont have ambition or drive? Then yes you are lazy.

We already know that whites will hire a white person before Blacks. Studies show they hire whites with a lower educational level than Blacks with a higher educational level. Hell studies show Blacks cant even get an interview if employers can tell they are Black by their name.

Things are 100 x more easy for a white person in a system that is constructed to benefit white people. Thats just common sense.

 

[IM2]

The Income Gap Between Blacks And Whites Has Only Gotten Worse Since The 1960s

Black-white wage gaps are larger today than they were in 1979, but the increase has not occurred along a straight line. During the early 1980s, rising unemployment, declining unionization, and policies such as the failure to raise the minimum wage and lax enforcement of anti-discrimination laws contributed to the growing black-white wage gap. During the late 1990s, the gap shrank due in part to tighter labor markets, which made discrimination more costly, and increases in the minimum wage. Since 2000 the gap has grown again. As of 2015, relative to the average hourly wages of white men with the same education, experience, metro status, and region of residence, black men make 22.0 percent less, and black women make 34.2 percent less. Black women earn 11.7 percent less than their white female counterparts. The widening gap has not affected everyone equally. Young black women (those with 0 to 10 years of experience) have been hardest hit since 2000.

Why it matters: Though the African American experience is not monolithic, our research reveals that changes in black education levels or other observable factors are not the primary reason the gaps are growing. For example, just completing a bachelor’s degree or more will not reduce the black-white wage gap. Indeed the gaps have expanded most for college graduates. Black male college graduates (both those with just a college degree and those who have gone beyond college) newly entering the workforce started the 1980s with less than a 10 percent disadvantage relative to white college graduates but by 2014 similarly educated new entrants were at a roughly 18 percent deficit.

Black-white wage gaps expand with rising wage inequality

I thought I saw a similar chart recently in which Hispanics had dropped below blacks in average income by a bit.

This sort of information is the sort of thing that certainly should be looked at, discussed, and improved upon if possible.

It doesn't in any way indicate that whites have to be lazy to be poor, if that's a point you were trying to make (no idea if it is).

That is not my point. My point is that whites just do not have it as tough as you want us to consider.

 

[Montrovant]

The Income Gap Between Blacks And Whites Has Only Gotten Worse Since The 1960s

Black-white wage gaps are larger today than they were in 1979, but the increase has not occurred along a straight line. During the early 1980s, rising unemployment, declining unionization, and policies such as the failure to raise the minimum wage and lax enforcement of anti-discrimination laws contributed to the growing black-white wage gap. During the late 1990s, the gap shrank due in part to tighter labor markets, which made discrimination more costly, and increases in the minimum wage. Since 2000 the gap has grown again. As of 2015, relative to the average hourly wages of white men with the same education, experience, metro status, and region of residence, black men make 22.0 percent less, and black women make 34.2 percent less. Black women earn 11.7 percent less than their white female counterparts. The widening gap has not affected everyone equally. Young black women (those with 0 to 10 years of experience) have been hardest hit since 2000.

Why it matters: Though the African American experience is not monolithic, our research reveals that changes in black education levels or other observable factors are not the primary reason the gaps are growing. For example, just completing a bachelor’s degree or more will not reduce the black-white wage gap. Indeed the gaps have expanded most for college graduates. Black male college graduates (both those with just a college degree and those who have gone beyond college) newly entering the workforce started the 1980s with less than a 10 percent disadvantage relative to white college graduates but by 2014 similarly educated new entrants were at a roughly 18 percent deficit.

Black-white wage gaps expand with rising wage inequality

I thought I saw a similar chart recently in which Hispanics had dropped below blacks in average income by a bit.

This sort of information is the sort of thing that certainly should be looked at, discussed, and improved upon if possible.

It doesn't in any way indicate that whites have to be lazy to be poor, if that's a point you were trying to make (no idea if it is).

That is not my point. My point is that whites just do not have it as tough as you want us to consider.

I didn't say whites have it tough. I'm trying to point out that looking at an entire race as a group is often a bad idea.

Would you accept that some whites have it harder than other whites? Would you accept that there are actually whites who have harder lives than some blacks? Is a child raised by poor white parents automatically going to have it easier than a child raised by wealthy black parents? What about a white child raised by abusive parents, compared to a black child raised by supportive parents?

Yes, there are trends and problems to be looked at where race is concerned, and discussing races as groups may make sense in those contexts. When someone simply declares that whites are only poor because they are lazy, however, that in itself is being lazy.

 

[Montrovant]

Well clearly, with a system tilted so heavily in favor of whites, there won't be that many poor whites. After all, the system will ensure they have success. Oh, wait...

Look, I'm not saying the system treats whites and minorities equally. I'm not saying there is no bias against blacks. However, the idea that things are so easy for whites that only laziness can lead to being poor is asinine. It also sounds remarkably like the arguments anti-black racists use about how so many blacks are poor because they are lazy.

Things can be harder in general for blacks without meaning it is easy for anyone who is white.

Of course there will be poor whites. Poor whites are the rubes that wealthy whites use the most to make money. They just tell them that they are better than those other people and keep trying. They give those whites just enough so they cant see whats going on but not enough to really do anything. They tell those whites that if those other people were not taking their jobs they too would be wealthy. Those whites are suffering from the same problem some Black people have. Instead of complaining about Blacks they should get off their asses and stop being lazy. Since they are white they have it 100 x easier.

And all of those black criminals should stop being a bunch of violent thugs and simply follow the law. Do what the police tell you and you won't get shot.

That's the same level of foolishness as saying poor whites are just lazy.

When it comes to blacks you want people to look at the full complexity of things, but with whites, you're perfectly happy saying poor whites are lazy, whites are genetically criminal, etc.

Like I said, good luck with your racism.

From your post I sense you take exception to my generalization that a poor white person is a lazy white person. What would you call it if I constructed a system that devalued whites, killed whites, funneled whites into prison, hired Blacks before whites, gave Blacks more economic support educationally, uplifted Black cultural values, and a Black person could not be successful?

That would be a system of systemic racism. I'm curious, though, how that system existing (and that is a huge oversimplification of the reality, but let's go with it) means whites that are poor must be lazy. Does such a system mean there are plenty of good paying jobs for whites, regardless of where they live, their training, their natural ability, or their intelligence? Does such a system mean that a person who experiences layoffs can simply find another similar job? Does such a system make all whites have the same drive and ambition? Does such a system provide whites with the resources to pay for major medical bills? Etc. etc.

But hey, maybe you really believe every white business owner will hire people merely because they are white, regardless of their qualifications.

Once again: things being worse for blacks does not mean things are easy for all whites.

It was a simplification for a reason. I dont want to write a manifesto every post.

Now I want you to imagine the system I just described being in effect for centuries. Everything you just mentioned ties into laziness. No good jobs where you live? Get up and move. No training? Get some training. No natural ability? Work harder than everyone else. Lacking intelligence? Then you are probably mentally challenged and the state takes care of you. Get laid off? Yes find another job. Dont have ambition or drive? Then yes you are lazy.

We already know that whites will hire a white person before Blacks. Studies show they hire whites with a lower educational level than Blacks with a higher educational level. Hell studies show Blacks cant even get an interview if employers can tell they are Black by their name.

Things are 100 x more easy for a white person in a system that is constructed to benefit white people. Thats just common sense.

Sure. Whites that are poor are just lazy, while blacks that are poor are not. You just go with that.

 

[Asclepias]

The Income Gap Between Blacks And Whites Has Only Gotten Worse Since The 1960s

Black-white wage gaps are larger today than they were in 1979, but the increase has not occurred along a straight line. During the early 1980s, rising unemployment, declining unionization, and policies such as the failure to raise the minimum wage and lax enforcement of anti-discrimination laws contributed to the growing black-white wage gap. During the late 1990s, the gap shrank due in part to tighter labor markets, which made discrimination more costly, and increases in the minimum wage. Since 2000 the gap has grown again. As of 2015, relative to the average hourly wages of white men with the same education, experience, metro status, and region of residence, black men make 22.0 percent less, and black women make 34.2 percent less. Black women earn 11.7 percent less than their white female counterparts. The widening gap has not affected everyone equally. Young black women (those with 0 to 10 years of experience) have been hardest hit since 2000.

Why it matters: Though the African American experience is not monolithic, our research reveals that changes in black education levels or other observable factors are not the primary reason the gaps are growing. For example, just completing a bachelor’s degree or more will not reduce the black-white wage gap. Indeed the gaps have expanded most for college graduates. Black male college graduates (both those with just a college degree and those who have gone beyond college) newly entering the workforce started the 1980s with less than a 10 percent disadvantage relative to white college graduates but by 2014 similarly educated new entrants were at a roughly 18 percent deficit.

Black-white wage gaps expand with rising wage inequality

I thought I saw a similar chart recently in which Hispanics had dropped below blacks in average income by a bit.

This sort of information is the sort of thing that certainly should be looked at, discussed, and improved upon if possible.

It doesn't in any way indicate that whites have to be lazy to be poor, if that's a point you were trying to make (no idea if it is).

That is not my point. My point is that whites just do not have it as tough as you want us to consider.

I didn't say whites have it tough. I'm trying to point out that looking at an entire race as a group is often a bad idea.

Would you accept that some whites have it harder than other whites? Would you accept that there are actually whites who have harder lives than some blacks? Is a child raised by poor white parents automatically going to have it easier than a child raised by wealthy black parents? What about a white child raised by abusive parents, compared to a black child raised by supportive parents?

Yes, there are trends and problems to be looked at where race is concerned, and discussing races as groups may make sense in those contexts. When someone simply declares that whites are only poor because they are lazy, however, that in itself is being lazy.

Whites are the one that made up races as a group. I am just speaking your language.

Yes some whites have it harder than other whites. Yes some whites have it harder than some Blacks but thats only because they are lazy. Yes a white child raised by poor white parents will have it easier than a Black child raised by wealthy parents. Same with an abused white child. They system was constructed for them to achieve no matter their background. All they have to do is shave, cut their hair, take a bath and get a suit.

 

[Montrovant]

Well clearly, with a system tilted so heavily in favor of whites, there won't be that many poor whites. After all, the system will ensure they have success. Oh, wait...

Look, I'm not saying the system treats whites and minorities equally. I'm not saying there is no bias against blacks. However, the idea that things are so easy for whites that only laziness can lead to being poor is asinine. It also sounds remarkably like the arguments anti-black racists use about how so many blacks are poor because they are lazy.

Things can be harder in general for blacks without meaning it is easy for anyone who is white.

Of course there will be poor whites. Poor whites are the rubes that wealthy whites use the most to make money. They just tell them that they are better than those other people and keep trying. They give those whites just enough so they cant see whats going on but not enough to really do anything. They tell those whites that if those other people were not taking their jobs they too would be wealthy. Those whites are suffering from the same problem some Black people have. Instead of complaining about Blacks they should get off their asses and stop being lazy. Since they are white they have it 100 x easier.

And all of those black criminals should stop being a bunch of violent thugs and simply follow the law. Do what the police tell you and you won't get shot.

That's the same level of foolishness as saying poor whites are just lazy.

When it comes to blacks you want people to look at the full complexity of things, but with whites, you're perfectly happy saying poor whites are lazy, whites are genetically criminal, etc.

Like I said, good luck with your racism.

From your post I sense you take exception to my generalization that a poor white person is a lazy white person. What would you call it if I constructed a system that devalued whites, killed whites, funneled whites into prison, hired Blacks before whites, gave Blacks more economic support educationally, uplifted Black cultural values, and a Black person could not be successful?

That would be a system of systemic racism. I'm curious, though, how that system existing (and that is a huge oversimplification of the reality, but let's go with it) means whites that are poor must be lazy. Does such a system mean there are plenty of good paying jobs for whites, regardless of where they live, their training, their natural ability, or their intelligence? Does such a system mean that a person who experiences layoffs can simply find another similar job? Does such a system make all whites have the same drive and ambition? Does such a system provide whites with the resources to pay for major medical bills? Etc. etc.

But hey, maybe you really believe every white business owner will hire people merely because they are white, regardless of their qualifications.

Once again: things being worse for blacks does not mean things are easy for all whites.

None of this is about every white. Drop the strawman. Unfortunately for you and the fantasy world you appear to live in, there are a whole lot of whites who will only hire whites regardless of qualifications. Things being worse for blacks means things continue being tougher for blacks than for whites no matter what kinds of complexities you want us to consider..

When Asclepias says all poor whites are lazy, that's close enough.

I'll try again: things being worse for blacks does not mean all whites have it easy. That being the case, simply declaring all poor whites as lazy (while, I suppose, poor blacks are all merely victims) is just generalizing, racist BS. It's the same sort of BS that anti-black racists toss around all the time regarding blacks committing more crime per capita, or a higher percentage of blacks being on welfare, etc.

 

[Asclepias]

Of course there will be poor whites. Poor whites are the rubes that wealthy whites use the most to make money. They just tell them that they are better than those other people and keep trying. They give those whites just enough so they cant see whats going on but not enough to really do anything. They tell those whites that if those other people were not taking their jobs they too would be wealthy. Those whites are suffering from the same problem some Black people have. Instead of complaining about Blacks they should get off their asses and stop being lazy. Since they are white they have it 100 x easier.

And all of those black criminals should stop being a bunch of violent thugs and simply follow the law. Do what the police tell you and you won't get shot.

That's the same level of foolishness as saying poor whites are just lazy.

When it comes to blacks you want people to look at the full complexity of things, but with whites, you're perfectly happy saying poor whites are lazy, whites are genetically criminal, etc.

Like I said, good luck with your racism.

From your post I sense you take exception to my generalization that a poor white person is a lazy white person. What would you call it if I constructed a system that devalued whites, killed whites, funneled whites into prison, hired Blacks before whites, gave Blacks more economic support educationally, uplifted Black cultural values, and a Black person could not be successful?

That would be a system of systemic racism. I'm curious, though, how that system existing (and that is a huge oversimplification of the reality, but let's go with it) means whites that are poor must be lazy. Does such a system mean there are plenty of good paying jobs for whites, regardless of where they live, their training, their natural ability, or their intelligence? Does such a system mean that a person who experiences layoffs can simply find another similar job? Does such a system make all whites have the same drive and ambition? Does such a system provide whites with the resources to pay for major medical bills? Etc. etc.

But hey, maybe you really believe every white business owner will hire people merely because they are white, regardless of their qualifications.

Once again: things being worse for blacks does not mean things are easy for all whites.

It was a simplification for a reason. I dont want to write a manifesto every post.

Now I want you to imagine the system I just described being in effect for centuries. Everything you just mentioned ties into laziness. No good jobs where you live? Get up and move. No training? Get some training. No natural ability? Work harder than everyone else. Lacking intelligence? Then you are probably mentally challenged and the state takes care of you. Get laid off? Yes find another job. Dont have ambition or drive? Then yes you are lazy.

We already know that whites will hire a white person before Blacks. Studies show they hire whites with a lower educational level than Blacks with a higher educational level. Hell studies show Blacks cant even get an interview if employers can tell they are Black by their name.

Things are 100 x more easy for a white person in a system that is constructed to benefit white people. Thats just common sense.

Sure. Whites that are poor are just lazy, while blacks that are poor are not. You just go with that.

Thats not what I said but I understand you are being emotional.

 

[Montrovant]

The Income Gap Between Blacks And Whites Has Only Gotten Worse Since The 1960s

Black-white wage gaps are larger today than they were in 1979, but the increase has not occurred along a straight line. During the early 1980s, rising unemployment, declining unionization, and policies such as the failure to raise the minimum wage and lax enforcement of anti-discrimination laws contributed to the growing black-white wage gap. During the late 1990s, the gap shrank due in part to tighter labor markets, which made discrimination more costly, and increases in the minimum wage. Since 2000 the gap has grown again. As of 2015, relative to the average hourly wages of white men with the same education, experience, metro status, and region of residence, black men make 22.0 percent less, and black women make 34.2 percent less. Black women earn 11.7 percent less than their white female counterparts. The widening gap has not affected everyone equally. Young black women (those with 0 to 10 years of experience) have been hardest hit since 2000.

Why it matters: Though the African American experience is not monolithic, our research reveals that changes in black education levels or other observable factors are not the primary reason the gaps are growing. For example, just completing a bachelor’s degree or more will not reduce the black-white wage gap. Indeed the gaps have expanded most for college graduates. Black male college graduates (both those with just a college degree and those who have gone beyond college) newly entering the workforce started the 1980s with less than a 10 percent disadvantage relative to white college graduates but by 2014 similarly educated new entrants were at a roughly 18 percent deficit.

Black-white wage gaps expand with rising wage inequality

I thought I saw a similar chart recently in which Hispanics had dropped below blacks in average income by a bit.

This sort of information is the sort of thing that certainly should be looked at, discussed, and improved upon if possible.

It doesn't in any way indicate that whites have to be lazy to be poor, if that's a point you were trying to make (no idea if it is).

That is not my point. My point is that whites just do not have it as tough as you want us to consider.

I didn't say whites have it tough. I'm trying to point out that looking at an entire race as a group is often a bad idea.

Would you accept that some whites have it harder than other whites? Would you accept that there are actually whites who have harder lives than some blacks? Is a child raised by poor white parents automatically going to have it easier than a child raised by wealthy black parents? What about a white child raised by abusive parents, compared to a black child raised by supportive parents?

Yes, there are trends and problems to be looked at where race is concerned, and discussing races as groups may make sense in those contexts. When someone simply declares that whites are only poor because they are lazy, however, that in itself is being lazy.

Whites are the one that made up races as a group. I am just speaking your language.

Yes some whites have it harder than other whites. Yes some whites have it harder than some Blacks but thats only because they are lazy. Yes a white child raised by poor white parents will have it easier than a Black child raised by wealthy parents. Same with an abused white child. They system was constructed for them to achieve no matter their background. All they have to do is shave, cut their hair, take a bath and get a suit.

I really can't tell if you're just trolling or being an idiot. In either case, enjoy your racism, have fun telling yourself how different it is from anti-black racism.

 

[Asclepias]

The Income Gap Between Blacks And Whites Has Only Gotten Worse Since The 1960s

Black-white wage gaps are larger today than they were in 1979, but the increase has not occurred along a straight line. During the early 1980s, rising unemployment, declining unionization, and policies such as the failure to raise the minimum wage and lax enforcement of anti-discrimination laws contributed to the growing black-white wage gap. During the late 1990s, the gap shrank due in part to tighter labor markets, which made discrimination more costly, and increases in the minimum wage. Since 2000 the gap has grown again. As of 2015, relative to the average hourly wages of white men with the same education, experience, metro status, and region of residence, black men make 22.0 percent less, and black women make 34.2 percent less. Black women earn 11.7 percent less than their white female counterparts. The widening gap has not affected everyone equally. Young black women (those with 0 to 10 years of experience) have been hardest hit since 2000.

Why it matters: Though the African American experience is not monolithic, our research reveals that changes in black education levels or other observable factors are not the primary reason the gaps are growing. For example, just completing a bachelor’s degree or more will not reduce the black-white wage gap. Indeed the gaps have expanded most for college graduates. Black male college graduates (both those with just a college degree and those who have gone beyond college) newly entering the workforce started the 1980s with less than a 10 percent disadvantage relative to white college graduates but by 2014 similarly educated new entrants were at a roughly 18 percent deficit.

Black-white wage gaps expand with rising wage inequality

I thought I saw a similar chart recently in which Hispanics had dropped below blacks in average income by a bit.

This sort of information is the sort of thing that certainly should be looked at, discussed, and improved upon if possible.

It doesn't in any way indicate that whites have to be lazy to be poor, if that's a point you were trying to make (no idea if it is).

That is not my point. My point is that whites just do not have it as tough as you want us to consider.

I didn't say whites have it tough. I'm trying to point out that looking at an entire race as a group is often a bad idea.

Would you accept that some whites have it harder than other whites? Would you accept that there are actually whites who have harder lives than some blacks? Is a child raised by poor white parents automatically going to have it easier than a child raised by wealthy black parents? What about a white child raised by abusive parents, compared to a black child raised by supportive parents?

Yes, there are trends and problems to be looked at where race is concerned, and discussing races as groups may make sense in those contexts. When someone simply declares that whites are only poor because they are lazy, however, that in itself is being lazy.

Whites are the one that made up races as a group. I am just speaking your language.

Yes some whites have it harder than other whites. Yes some whites have it harder than some Blacks but thats only because they are lazy. Yes a white child raised by poor white parents will have it easier than a Black child raised by wealthy parents. Same with an abused white child. They system was constructed for them to achieve no matter their background. All they have to do is shave, cut their hair, take a bath and get a suit.

I really can't tell if you're just trolling or being an idiot. In either case, enjoy your racism, have fun telling yourself how different it is from anti-black racism.

Its different for two reaasons. One is that anti white racism wasnt set up here in the US. The other is that on a level playing field it would never be implemented by Blacks.

 

[IM2]

Again we cannot talk about not looking at races as a group then argue about crime based on a races population percentage.