It is certainly true that those who support abortion are monsters...

[sakinago]

It is certainly true that those who oppose legal abortion are monsters, and they are stupid monsters for thinking that outlawing abortion will actually end abortion. It will only relegate abortion to the underground, unsanitary, unqualified practitioners who do not have access to proper medical facilities and equipment putting women at enormous risk.

Lets just set the debate about when life begins, whether or not it is a matter of privacy rights, and false equivalency logical fallacies comparing it to murder. The fact is that legal or not, women will have abortions for various reasons, Why not channel the energy in ways that reduce the demand and need for abortion, of which there are many?

I would really like to know how many of the people here who rail against abortion are willing to support the direction of resources to programs that prevent unwanted pregnancies and that provide supports to people who might choose to carry a child to term if they knew that help was available. That includes:

Meaningful and comprehensive sex education
Readily available and affordable birth control
Universal health care'
Affordable Housing
Nutritional programs such as food stamps'
Affordable pre school and day care
A living minimum wage
Laws against discrimination.

If you are opposed to any or all of these things but claim to be " pro life" let me tell you something . YOU ARE NOT PRO LIFE . You are a monster, and a stupid, hypocritical monster at that.

Thank you for that brilliant, thoughtful and informative commentary. As always, you excel in your boost the level of intellectual discourse to the highest level. We can all learn so much from you. God bless.

Now, perhaps you would like to comment on the issues that I raised that can actually reduce the demand for abortion. Please tell us more about how pro life you are .

Why would I respond to your issues? They’re all excuses not issues. Fetus is alive, you can’t change that no matter how many times you wish to. People are expected to be responsible for themselves correct?

Are you just playing stupid games or do you really believe your own bullshit. Do you know what a straw man argument is...?? You just used that logical fallacy where you attribute an argument to me that I didn't make , and then refute it to claim victory. Where the fuck did I ever say that a fetus is not alive. ?

All of the things that I listed are in fact issue that can be used to reduce the need for abortion. That is my point that you refuse to deal with, but instead, keep bleating about the evils of abortion If you had any decency and intelligence, you would embrace them all. Apparently you have neither

It’s not a straw man argument to call out your red herrings. The issue is, whether or not it is life. It’s like debating how to lower murder rates without debating whether or not murder is wrong, and instead saying murder is still gonna happen anyway. That’s a pretty good example of a red herring, and that’s exactly what your doing. And in this scenario, you don’t have to agree with all the propositions to reduce murder if you don’t think they’re going to work with evidence backing it up.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

It is certainly true that those who oppose legal abortion are monsters, and they are stupid monsters for thinking that outlawing abortion will actually end abortion. It will only relegate abortion to the underground, unsanitary, unqualified practitioners who do not have access to proper medical facilities and equipment putting women at enormous risk.

Lets just set the debate about when life begins, whether or not it is a matter of privacy rights, and false equivalency logical fallacies comparing it to murder. The fact is that legal or not, women will have abortions for various reasons, Why not channel the energy in ways that reduce the demand and need for abortion, of which there are many?

I would really like to know how many of the people here who rail against abortion are willing to support the direction of resources to programs that prevent unwanted pregnancies and that provide supports to people who might choose to carry a child to term if they knew that help was available. That includes:

Meaningful and comprehensive sex education
Readily available and affordable birth control
Universal health care'
Affordable Housing
Nutritional programs such as food stamps'
Affordable pre school and day care
A living minimum wage
Laws against discrimination.

If you are opposed to any or all of these things but claim to be " pro life" let me tell you something . YOU ARE NOT PRO LIFE . You are a monster, and a stupid, hypocritical monster at that.

Thank you for that brilliant, thoughtful and informative commentary. As always, you excel in your boost the level of intellectual discourse to the highest level. We can all learn so much from you. God bless.

Now, perhaps you would like to comment on the issues that I raised that can actually reduce the demand for abortion. Please tell us more about how pro life you are .

Why would I respond to your issues? They’re all excuses not issues. Fetus is alive, you can’t change that no matter how many times you wish to. People are expected to be responsible for themselves correct?

Are you just playing stupid games or do you really believe your own bullshit. Do you know what a straw man argument is...?? You just used that logical fallacy where you attribute an argument to me that I didn't make , and then refute it to claim victory. Where the fuck did I ever say that a fetus is not alive. ?

All of the things that I listed are in fact issue that can be used to reduce the need for abortion. That is my point that you refuse to deal with, but instead, keep bleating about the evils of abortion If you had any decency and intelligence, you would embrace them all. Apparently you have neither

It’s not a straw man argument to call out your red herrings. The issue is, whether or not it is life. It’s like debating how to lower murder rates without debating whether or not murder is wrong, and instead saying murder is still gonna happen anyway. That’s a pretty good example of a red herring, and that’s exactly what your doing. And in this scenario, you don’t have to agree with all the propositions to reduce murder if you don’t think they’re going to work with evidence backing it up.

I maintain that it is a strawman argument for the reasons stated. I moved on from the issue of what is life and when it begins because it is futile and we will never agree. In addition, no matter what is done, abortion will not be eradicated and in fact, there are indications that there will be more abortions if outlawed vs. if we implement the programs and policies that I suggested. It is just plain stupid to think that you can end abortion

My point is not a red herring because it relates directly to the issue of reducing abortion which is the only practical goal. However, you fucking hypocrites wont admin=t any of this and keep beating the pro fetus drum. Calling yourselves pro life is a sick joke.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

It is certainly true that those who oppose legal abortion are monsters, and they are stupid monsters for thinking that outlawing abortion will actually end abortion. It will only relegate abortion to the underground, unsanitary, unqualified practitioners who do not have access to proper medical facilities and equipment putting women at enormous risk.

Lets just set the debate about when life begins, whether or not it is a matter of privacy rights, and false equivalency logical fallacies comparing it to murder. The fact is that legal or not, women will have abortions for various reasons, Why not channel the energy in ways that reduce the demand and need for abortion, of which there are many?

I would really like to know how many of the people here who rail against abortion are willing to support the direction of resources to programs that prevent unwanted pregnancies and that provide supports to people who might choose to carry a child to term if they knew that help was available. That includes:

Meaningful and comprehensive sex education
Readily available and affordable birth control
Universal health care'
Affordable Housing
Nutritional programs such as food stamps'
Affordable pre school and day care
A living minimum wage
Laws against discrimination.

If you are opposed to any or all of these things but claim to be " pro life" let me tell you something . YOU ARE NOT PRO LIFE . You are a monster, and a stupid, hypocritical monster at that.

Thank you for that brilliant, thoughtful and informative commentary. As always, you excel in your boost the level of intellectual discourse to the highest level. We can all learn so much from you. God bless.

Now, perhaps you would like to comment on the issues that I raised that can actually reduce the demand for abortion. Please tell us more about how pro life you are .

Why would I respond to your issues? They’re all excuses not issues. Fetus is alive, you can’t change that no matter how many times you wish to. People are expected to be responsible for themselves correct?

Are you just playing stupid games or do you really believe your own bullshit. Do you know what a straw man argument is...?? You just used that logical fallacy where you attribute an argument to me that I didn't make , and then refute it to claim victory. Where the fuck did I ever say that a fetus is not alive. ?

All of the things that I listed are in fact issue that can be used to reduce the need for abortion. That is my point that you refuse to deal with, but instead, keep bleating about the evils of abortion If you had any decency and intelligence, you would embrace them all. Apparently you have neither

And I said personal fking responsibility!

Is a fetus live?

A fetus is alive. So is an ameba. Being alive does not make either a human being. You jackasses keep blathering about abortion being murder, but when children are subjected to inadequate medical care, poor nutrition, and are made to live in squalor, that is also murder...just the slow kind

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

It is certainly true that those who oppose legal abortion are monsters, and they are stupid monsters for thinking that outlawing abortion will actually end abortion. It will only relegate abortion to the underground, unsanitary, unqualified practitioners who do not have access to proper medical facilities and equipment putting women at enormous risk.

Lets just set the debate about when life begins, whether or not it is a matter of privacy rights, and false equivalency logical fallacies comparing it to murder. The fact is that legal or not, women will have abortions for various reasons, Why not channel the energy in ways that reduce the demand and need for abortion, of which there are many?

I would really like to know how many of the people here who rail against abortion are willing to support the direction of resources to programs that prevent unwanted pregnancies and that provide supports to people who might choose to carry a child to term if they knew that help was available. That includes:

Meaningful and comprehensive sex education
Readily available and affordable birth control
Universal health care'
Affordable Housing
Nutritional programs such as food stamps'
Affordable pre school and day care
A living minimum wage
Laws against discrimination.

If you are opposed to any or all of these things but claim to be " pro life" let me tell you something . YOU ARE NOT PRO LIFE . You are a monster, and a stupid, hypocritical monster at that.

I’ve already said before in this thread, on your first period, you send a form into government, what BC you want, gets delivered to your door (or procedure paid for) automatically. Then say bye bye to abortion.

The fact that it still will happen doesn’t make it less than a crime. You could say the exact same thing for murder. But it’s not going to be driven underground to a heavy degree at all. Rare cases here and there, for people that can afford it (it’s going to be stupid expensive, this isn’t Botox injections we’re talking about) and still stupid enough to not use BC. That’s a fair compromise, no excuse for abortion (we’ll allow the .00001% cases of incest and rape). Don’t start with the BC failure shit either, we’re talking 99.9% efficacy rates outside of non-chemical IUDs that are still very effective. (which just means legal lingo for covering our ass if you did not use correctly). If you’re worried about condoms breaking, use lube...way easier problem to solve than getting an abortion. Take your pills, get mirena, use a condom, they’re free and delivered to your door when you need them.

That is quite an unhinged rant that completely fails to address the issue that I raised and exposed your delusion that outlawing abortion will end abortion. It is not just about birth control either. To be clear, I am not "pro abortion" I am pro choice. There is a big difference.

My question to you was, and still is : Are you really pro life? Again, these are the questions that I asked which you avoided.

Do you support......

Meaningful and comprehensive sex education
Readily available and affordable birth control
Universal health care'
Affordable Housing
Nutritional programs such as food stamps'
Affordable pre school and day care
A living minimum wage
Laws against discrimination.

This is a test to prove that you are really pro life as opposed to being "pro fetus" like most of you hysterical anti abortion people are.

There’s nothing unhinged about what I said. Whenever you hear this type of ridiculous characterization, like “unhinged”, you know you’re hovering over the target, because someone sound in their beliefs doesn’t have to resort to tactics like that and the rest of your entire deflectionary, red herring response that followed. Your issues are putting the cart, and an entire engineless RV before the horse. Whether or not a fetus is human life takes priority over anything else...because if it is, abortion is killing human life. So, if it is killing, we need to stop it obviously. It’s like not including the people who stopped looking for work, or who work part time hoping for something better into the unemployment numbers (which we still do). You’re not addressing the issue at hand when you do that...except in this case it’s life and death.

I’ll answer your stupid, red herring questions once, then no more. This is the stupidest tactic I’ve ever heard of BTW, calling people who think a fetus is human life pro-death because they don’t 100% agree with Bernie Sanders. Outrageous, and you need to grow up and have an honest conversation for once. Anyway moving on.

Meaningful comprehensive sex education, yes. Where specifically does it fail now? And how would you improve it? I’m open to any suggestions.

Available and affordable BC. I just answered that, this will be me third time now. I’m all for government sending the pill straight to your door or paying for your IUD. All for free. Why you’d have to ask that again is beyond me, unless you don’t really listen, or read, and this is a cookie cutter response. It isn’t like it’s not readily available and un-affordable now. It might be one of the most available and affordable things out there. Coffee might have it beat, but not much else. Any place that sells aspirin (very affordable and available by any metric you want to use) will also sell condoms for cheaper. There’s still vending machines with condoms in fucking bathrooms, that’s pretty damn available. You can go to a pharmacy, any pharmacy, they’re everywhere, and pick up pills for 40 bucks I think. That’ll last you a month and is just about the same cost as using a condom every day. So what exactly is so unaffordable, and unavailable with birth control now?

I’m for universal health care, but that doesn’t mean what I’m guessing you think it means. We should go with the Swiss system, that also happens to be the best in the world, by far. Look it up, I’m sure you’re confusing universal with single payer. Single payer may be fine and dandy for the average person with a cold, or basically anything treatable by a general practitioner, but blows for anyone who needs specialized care. This is why virtually all the countries that have single payer systems, still have private health insurance industries for people who can afford it. If single payer was so wonderful, private insurance obviously would not be needed, and there wouldn’t be a two tier system. At best, socialism is the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people. Again this is when it is run effectively, with people who truly care. Sounds fine and dandy up until you realize that for the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people (utilitarianism), means that by necessity, you need to overlook the minority. The minority when it comes to healthcare are people who need specialized care. Something that the Swiss and US systems have the absolute best in world of, and something that’s pretty lacking in the countries with single payer systems, although you don’t hear too much complaint because it’s a minority. Moving on

Affordable housing. Even with our stupidly inflated housing prices, we have some of the most affordable housing out there. The average home size in America is 2500 sq ft. Contrast that to Europe, where the average is 900 sq ft. So do you want a government that’s already overextended that adds a trillion in debt a year, to make that an average of 3000 sq ft? They can’t cover the entitlements already in place, but sure let’s just give our children more debt, hopefully we’ll be dead by that time.

Pre school. Women gained the right to have full time jobs, now it’s expected of them to have full time jobs in our economy. They lost the right to stay at home with the kids. That’s the current state of affairs. Good for the 20% of women who want to work full time, really shitty for the other 20% who want to be housewives, and also difficult for the rest of the 60% in between who want to have plenty of family time, but want to work as well. If you want to put the financial burden of full time healthcare for free on everyone, it’s going to be really shitty for 80% of women paying for the 20% who want to work full time and have free daycare.

Food stamps already exist. They’re heavily used as well. Used in a way that suggest we never pulled out of the recession properly.

“Living minimum wage”. Show me an instance where this isn’t a job killer and I’ll be aboard. All that does is create less hires, and raises cost of goods. But yea, an 18 year old fry cook deserves 17$ an hour...no, what they need to do instead is get technical training for things like welding if college isn’t the best option for them. There’s tons of the technical jobs out there, but we send all our kids to college that maybe shouldn’t who’ll either drop out, choose a major for a career that doesn’t exist/disappearing, and then are saddled with debt, and go back to their minimum wage job. This is all a bit more nuanced, and a much more complex problem than a simple solution like “well just give them more money” can fix.

We already have laws against discrimination, so this is another idiotic topic that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, or claims that anyone who doesn’t agree with Bernie 100% is pro-death. That’s about as silly as it gets. Can we talk about the real topic that actually involves potentially life and death decisions?

Thank you once again for clearly demonstrating that you are not prolife and in fact bend over backwards to find excuses to trash programs and policies that could and do actually make the lives of children better and encourage women to carry a child to term. Fucking hypocrite!!

 

[Dragonlady]

It is certainly true that those who oppose legal abortion are monsters, and they are stupid monsters for thinking that outlawing abortion will actually end abortion. It will only relegate abortion to the underground, unsanitary, unqualified practitioners who do not have access to proper medical facilities and equipment putting women at enormous risk.

Lets just set the debate about when life begins, whether or not it is a matter of privacy rights, and false equivalency logical fallacies comparing it to murder. The fact is that legal or not, women will have abortions for various reasons, Why not channel the energy in ways that reduce the demand and need for abortion, of which there are many?

I would really like to know how many of the people here who rail against abortion are willing to support the direction of resources to programs that prevent unwanted pregnancies and that provide supports to people who might choose to carry a child to term if they knew that help was available. That includes:

Meaningful and comprehensive sex education
Readily available and affordable birth control
Universal health care'
Affordable Housing
Nutritional programs such as food stamps'
Affordable pre school and day care
A living minimum wage
Laws against discrimination.

If you are opposed to any or all of these things but claim to be " pro life" let me tell you something . YOU ARE NOT PRO LIFE . You are a monster, and a stupid, hypocritical monster at that.

Thank you for that brilliant, thoughtful and informative commentary. As always, you excel in your boost the level of intellectual discourse to the highest level. We can all learn so much from you. God bless.

Now, perhaps you would like to comment on the issues that I raised that can actually reduce the demand for abortion. Please tell us more about how pro life you are .

Why would I respond to your issues? They’re all excuses not issues. Fetus is alive, you can’t change that no matter how many times you wish to. People are expected to be responsible for themselves correct?

Are you just playing stupid games or do you really believe your own bullshit. Do you know what a straw man argument is...?? You just used that logical fallacy where you attribute an argument to me that I didn't make , and then refute it to claim victory. Where the fuck did I ever say that a fetus is not alive. ?

All of the things that I listed are in fact issue that can be used to reduce the need for abortion. That is my point that you refuse to deal with, but instead, keep bleating about the evils of abortion If you had any decency and intelligence, you would embrace them all. Apparently you have neither

It’s not a straw man argument to call out your red herrings. The issue is, whether or not it is life. It’s like debating how to lower murder rates without debating whether or not murder is wrong, and instead saying murder is still gonna happen anyway. That’s a pretty good example of a red herring, and that’s exactly what your doing. And in this scenario, you don’t have to agree with all the propositions to reduce murder if you don’t think they’re going to work with evidence backing it up.

The debate is not about whether the fetus is alive, the issue is by what right do you strip a woman of right to determine whether or not to bring this fetus to term. And you’re continually using the murder of the living as a comparison, which is a straw man because they’re aren’t the same thing and you know it.

You’ve lost the argument on every point you’ve posited to this point and this one isn’t going to work either.

When we want to prevent murders, we look at the causes of violence: poverty, lack of opportunity, easy availability of weapons, influence of gangs, lack of protection of vulnerable citizens. Because just making murder illegal doesn’t work.

Where have you suggested doing anything towards looking at the root causes of abortion and making changes in the poverty, lack of health care, lack of job protections for low wage workers, and lack of maternity leave to reduce abortions?

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Thank you for that brilliant, thoughtful and informative commentary. As always, you excel in your boost the level of intellectual discourse to the highest level. We can all learn so much from you. God bless.

Now, perhaps you would like to comment on the issues that I raised that can actually reduce the demand for abortion. Please tell us more about how pro life you are .

Why would I respond to your issues? They’re all excuses not issues. Fetus is alive, you can’t change that no matter how many times you wish to. People are expected to be responsible for themselves correct?

Are you just playing stupid games or do you really believe your own bullshit. Do you know what a straw man argument is...?? You just used that logical fallacy where you attribute an argument to me that I didn't make , and then refute it to claim victory. Where the fuck did I ever say that a fetus is not alive. ?

All of the things that I listed are in fact issue that can be used to reduce the need for abortion. That is my point that you refuse to deal with, but instead, keep bleating about the evils of abortion If you had any decency and intelligence, you would embrace them all. Apparently you have neither

It’s not a straw man argument to call out your red herrings. The issue is, whether or not it is life. It’s like debating how to lower murder rates without debating whether or not murder is wrong, and instead saying murder is still gonna happen anyway. That’s a pretty good example of a red herring, and that’s exactly what your doing. And in this scenario, you don’t have to agree with all the propositions to reduce murder if you don’t think they’re going to work with evidence backing it up.

The debate is not about whether the fetus is alive, the issue is by what right do you strip a woman of right to determine whether or not to bring this fetus to term. And you’re continually using the murder of the living as a comparison, which is a straw man because they’re aren’t the same thing and you know it.

You’ve lost the argument on every point you’ve posited to this point and this one isn’t going to work either.

When we want to prevent murders, we look at the causes of violence: poverty, lack of opportunity, easy availability of weapons, influence of gangs, lack of protection of vulnerable citizens. Because just making murder illegal doesn’t work.

Where have you suggested doing anything towards looking at the root causes of abortion and making changes in the poverty, lack of health care, lack of job protections for low wage workers, and lack of maternity leave to reduce abortions?

They have not. They will not.

 

[Dragonlady]

That’s because the goal isn’t to reduce abortions, it’s to shame and humiliate women for “getting caught” as we called it in high school.

 

[sakinago]

Thank you for that brilliant, thoughtful and informative commentary. As always, you excel in your boost the level of intellectual discourse to the highest level. We can all learn so much from you. God bless.

Now, perhaps you would like to comment on the issues that I raised that can actually reduce the demand for abortion. Please tell us more about how pro life you are .

Why would I respond to your issues? They’re all excuses not issues. Fetus is alive, you can’t change that no matter how many times you wish to. People are expected to be responsible for themselves correct?

Are you just playing stupid games or do you really believe your own bullshit. Do you know what a straw man argument is...?? You just used that logical fallacy where you attribute an argument to me that I didn't make , and then refute it to claim victory. Where the fuck did I ever say that a fetus is not alive. ?

All of the things that I listed are in fact issue that can be used to reduce the need for abortion. That is my point that you refuse to deal with, but instead, keep bleating about the evils of abortion If you had any decency and intelligence, you would embrace them all. Apparently you have neither

It’s not a straw man argument to call out your red herrings. The issue is, whether or not it is life. It’s like debating how to lower murder rates without debating whether or not murder is wrong, and instead saying murder is still gonna happen anyway. That’s a pretty good example of a red herring, and that’s exactly what your doing. And in this scenario, you don’t have to agree with all the propositions to reduce murder if you don’t think they’re going to work with evidence backing it up.

I maintain that it is a strawman argument for the reasons stated. I moved on from the issue of what is life and when it begins because it is futile and we will never agree. In addition, no matter what is done, abortion will not be eradicated and in fact, there are indications that there will be more abortions if outlawed vs. if we implement the programs and policies that I suggested. It is just plain stupid to think that you can end abortion

My point is not a red herring because it relates directly to the issue of reducing abortion which is the only practical goal. However, you fucking hypocrites wont admin=t any of this and keep beating the pro fetus drum. Calling yourselves pro life is a sick joke.

The only reason you skipped the issue because it “won’t be agreed upon”, is because it’s the issue the pro choice side doesn’t want to discuss or have an honest conversation about. There’s an absolute zero chance to come to any sort of agreement or understanding if one side keeps avoiding the topic. The fact that no one will ever change their minds so why bother is a total cop-out. I used to be pro-choice back in the day when I never really honestly considered the issue, that was up until I was challenged and didn’t have anything to answer that challenge. Here’s my point and case, I’m not going to agree with all of your solutions to help curb abortions, yet you want to debate that instead of the main point of abortion. So why aren’t you applying the same standard of “it won’t be agreed upon so why bother”, there? The only reason I can think of why someone would do that is because it is a very common red herring that also doubles as a strawman to demonize the other side at the same time in the “see you don’t agree with helping out people in the way I want too, therefore you’re actually pro-death.” Some of your solutions don’t even address curbing abortion at all. If people have more affordable housing, they’re going to have safer sex? If we raise minimum wage they’re going to start having safer sex? If they have Medicare for all they’re going to have safer sex? Maybe there’s a slight argument for that one.

And what evidence is there that abortions will increase if outlawed. Are you suggesting that women would get pregnant, find and pay top dollar to a doctor or other shady character willing to break the law to provide an abortion, out of protest to the abortion ban? Or will the ban somehow cause people to forget to use birth control, and have to again find and pay top dollar to shady “doctors” to preform an abortion. I don’t see any scenario where it would make sense banning abortion would somehow increase it. What seems more likely is that it’ll decrease abortions pretty significantly for a few reasons. It’s going to be illegal, so more people will probably get their shit together and actually use birth control because there’s no more “safety net” backup plan for them. Those who still are negligent in the use of BC, aren’t going to have the option to go to PP to get one, they’d have to look to these shady “doctors” and pay top dollar to get it taken care of in a seedy motel somewhere. Those reasons seem way more likely to be the case than whatever other scenario there’d be that’d somehow increase abortion.

 

[sakinago]

Thank you for that brilliant, thoughtful and informative commentary. As always, you excel in your boost the level of intellectual discourse to the highest level. We can all learn so much from you. God bless.

Now, perhaps you would like to comment on the issues that I raised that can actually reduce the demand for abortion. Please tell us more about how pro life you are .

Why would I respond to your issues? They’re all excuses not issues. Fetus is alive, you can’t change that no matter how many times you wish to. People are expected to be responsible for themselves correct?

Are you just playing stupid games or do you really believe your own bullshit. Do you know what a straw man argument is...?? You just used that logical fallacy where you attribute an argument to me that I didn't make , and then refute it to claim victory. Where the fuck did I ever say that a fetus is not alive. ?

All of the things that I listed are in fact issue that can be used to reduce the need for abortion. That is my point that you refuse to deal with, but instead, keep bleating about the evils of abortion If you had any decency and intelligence, you would embrace them all. Apparently you have neither

And I said personal fking responsibility!

Is a fetus live?

A fetus is alive. So is an ameba. Being alive does not make either a human being. You jackasses keep blathering about abortion being murder, but when children are subjected to inadequate medical care, poor nutrition, and are made to live in squalor, that is also murder...just the slow kind

Yea but a human fetus is a human being...it’s not anything else. Still has the same 46 chromosomes we do. May not be in the same stage of development as a human adult, but neither are infants, toddlers, kids, pre-teens, teens, etc. A maggot isn’t a different species from a fly. A caterpillar or cocoon isn’t a different species from a butterfly. If you believe it’s morally wrong to kill a butterfly, it’s morally wrong to kill caterpillars too. A fetus doesn’t magically turn human once it passes through the birth canal.

How many kids are dying of malnutrition in the US? How many people are dying of malnutrition in the US? How many kids are dying due to inadeqeunt medical care? And you’re still trying to claim this line of thinking isn’t a red herring. By implying that if someone is pro-choice, they automatically must want people to starve on the streets? They have to discuss this issues and agree with you on those issues before we can even discuss whether or not a fetus is human life?

 

[Montrovant]

That is not a point of contention. I doubt even the most ardent pro-choice advocate would argue that a fetus is not alive (or at least part of a living being). Instead, I think the points of contention would be whether a fetus is a person, or whether it is a separate being from the mother.

I would guess that the fetus being a separate living being is the point you are saying is in contention.

What else is it if it isn’t a separate living being? There’s no magic going on here, it’s living, it’s human, it’s separate. There’s no magical benchmark of “oh, exactly 22 weeks since conception, it’s now a living separate being.” We all know what happens, well, most should and those who don’t are willfully blind. It meets every threshold of the scientific definition of life. It’s not it’s mother, it’s not a tumor, it’s not an extra bag of skin, it has its own unique DNA. It’s not a fly, it’s not a horse, it’s not a sock, it’s not anything that’s not a human.

Person is an abstract term. What constitutes a “person”? Why are we basing what is and isn’t life on these abstract terms when we’ve had a functioning scientific definition of human life, and life in general, a long ass time ago?

Some argue that until a certain point of development, a fetus is still a part of the mother. At least, that is the impression I have gotten from a number of people in these sorts of arguments.

As far as what is a person, it is important in a Constitutional sense. The Constitution grants various rights and protections to persons, so determining what constitutes a person can be a very important consideration.

I don't want to argue the pros or cons of abortion. I'm trying to limit myself to very specific details; in this case, the idea that the important question is whether a fetus is alive. That is just an over-simplification of the question IMO. I prefer it to be clearer, as I don't think the vast majority of people, regardless of their opinions about abortion, would say that a fetus is made up of anything but living tissue. As I said, the argument would be whether the fetus is separate from the mother, or whether the fetus constitutes a person, and at what time those things occur.

I'm trying to have the question put forth as clearly as possible, I'm not answering the question. Abortion arguments almost inevitably go nowhere.

Anyone who argues that a fetus is still part of his mother at ANY point is decades out-of-date scientifically, and should educate himself.

The Constitution doesn't actually have a damned thing to do with this, and never did. The REAL Constitution, that is, not the invented "living" Constitution that sprouts new "emanations" and "penumbras" every time you turn your back on it.

Why are you in a thread about abortion if you don't want to discuss the topic of abortion?

The question of whether or not a fetus is alive is not an over-simplification. It's the basic starting point that has to be established and acknowledged before you can discuss anything else. Abortion advocates always want to gloss past it so they don't ever have to state right out that they were wrong/lying on this subject since forever. Trying to "be clearer" without definitively answering that first question is nothing more than trying to AVOID that question and change the subject. I mean, look at you. You're trying to make it about this, that, and the other thing that allows you to slide right on by that fundamental question.

But okay, I can also answer all your other issues. A fetus is made up of living tissue, but that's a deflection, because "living tissue" is not the point. He is made up of living tissue, because he IS A LIVING ORGANISM, separate and distinct from all other living organisms, and all living organisms are made up - by definition - of living tissue. I am, you are, presumably even Cecile Richards is.

Not only is a fetus a living organism, distinct from the OTHER living organism which is his mother, he is a separate living organism from the moment of conception. There is no other point in time to which you can point with any level of scientific evidence and accuracy and say, "There. That is the moment when he became a separate organism, because XYZ."

"Personhood" is a bullshit, made-up concept which has no basis in scientific, medical fact. It is all about "feelz". There are hyper-emotional, hypo-intelligent dunderheads out there who will insist, with great passion, that their pets are "people". I can tell you that all three of my children were persons the whole time I carried them in my uterus, and with just as much conviction - although probably NOT the same level of desperation - as a woman heading into a Planned Parenthood will insist that her unborn offspring is NOT a person. Unless you have a scientific definition of "person", it all gets us exactly nowhere useful.

Abortion arguments almost inevitably go nowhere because, like you, people refuse to answer the question so we can move forward on the same, settled footing together.

You are arguing with yourself. I haven't said that a fetus is not alive, nor that it is not a separate being. I've pointed out that the question "Is a fetus alive?" is different from the question "Is a fetus a separate living being?", just as it is different from the question "Is a fetus a person?". You may not see a distinction between the question of if a fetus is alive and if a fetus is a separate living being, but it exists. I think a subject as contentious as abortion would be best discussed or argued with very clearly defined points.

The Constitution doesn't have anything to do with the abortion debate? OK....

I can discuss abortion without arguing my position about it. Besides, I'll join in any thread I care to.

Of course personhood is not a scientific term. So what? Do you think the abortion debate is based solely on scientific knowledge?

I'm not trying to make anything about "this, that, and the other thing that allows (me) to slide right on by." I'm pointing out that JC456's comment that "there is but one question, is a fetus alive?" is not the only, or even an especially accurate, question. It's a minor point, but as I said, with an issue this contentious, clearly defined phrasing seems best.

I haven't refused to answer anything. I don't recall you actually asking me if a fetus is alive, but if you've been unable to figure it out from my posts, yes, I readily accept that it is.

My point is why bring in unanswerable philosophical questions, when science has already answered those questions. Not only had it answered those questions, it already provided a solution long ago in the form of birth control.

I also never skipped over the question of is a fetus a separate living being. That answer is yes, because it is nothing else. Parasites don’t suddenly become life once they latch onto a host, even though they may depend on the host for life. They also don’t become one with the host. How is it we definitively apply that simple logic to the likes of tapeworms, but not to our own? Why are we creating a vague abstraction for humans that we don’t apply to the rest of nature. It’s because people don’t want to take responsibilty for the act of reproduction. You may not intend to have a baby. That’s just what happens when two people launch their gametes at eachother, sometimes the guys buckshot hits the girls clay pigeon. You can try to reason or justify that responsibility away, but in doing so we are overlooking cold hard facts here we’ve known for a very long time. Because sex is fun, but sex also requires responsibility. You can’t simply reason that responsibility away, but there are very simple, easy, accessible, effective steps to have the fun without the responsibility.

Abortion is far more a philosophical debate than a scientific one. Certainly human knowledge about the reproductive process, the stages of human development, play a significant part, but in the final analysis that knowledge is used to support a moral or philosophical opinion.

I would argue that people often do create "vague abstractions" for other parts of nature. We eat cows and pigs, but are revolted at the idea of eating dogs, or cats, or horses. Many people see a hamster as a cute, lovable pet and a rat as a disgusting disease-carrier, despite both being rodents. I would guess that someone breaking a bird egg would be viewed far differently from someone breaking a bird neck.

Of course, humans are also different from the rest of nature with our level of reasoning, intelligence, and technology, so it isn't all that unexpected that we would view ourselves in a different light.

I agree wholeheartedly that better, more common use of birth control would do a great deal to limit the amount of abortions.

 

[Montrovant]

Thank you for that brilliant, thoughtful and informative commentary. As always, you excel in your boost the level of intellectual discourse to the highest level. We can all learn so much from you. God bless.

Now, perhaps you would like to comment on the issues that I raised that can actually reduce the demand for abortion. Please tell us more about how pro life you are .

Why would I respond to your issues? They’re all excuses not issues. Fetus is alive, you can’t change that no matter how many times you wish to. People are expected to be responsible for themselves correct?

Are you just playing stupid games or do you really believe your own bullshit. Do you know what a straw man argument is...?? You just used that logical fallacy where you attribute an argument to me that I didn't make , and then refute it to claim victory. Where the fuck did I ever say that a fetus is not alive. ?

All of the things that I listed are in fact issue that can be used to reduce the need for abortion. That is my point that you refuse to deal with, but instead, keep bleating about the evils of abortion If you had any decency and intelligence, you would embrace them all. Apparently you have neither

And I said personal fking responsibility!

Is a fetus live?

A fetus is alive. So is an ameba. Being alive does not make either a human being. You jackasses keep blathering about abortion being murder, but when children are subjected to inadequate medical care, poor nutrition, and are made to live in squalor, that is also murder...just the slow kind

Yea but a human fetus is a human being...it’s not anything else. Still has the same 46 chromosomes we do. May not be in the same stage of development as a human adult, but neither are infants, toddlers, kids, pre-teens, teens, etc. A maggot isn’t a different species from a fly. A caterpillar or cocoon isn’t a different species from a butterfly. If you believe it’s morally wrong to kill a butterfly, it’s morally wrong to kill caterpillars too. A fetus doesn’t magically turn human once it passes through the birth canal.

How many kids are dying of malnutrition in the US? How many people are dying of malnutrition in the US? How many kids are dying due to inadeqeunt medical care? And you’re still trying to claim this line of thinking isn’t a red herring. By implying that if someone is pro-choice, they automatically must want people to starve on the streets? They have to discuss this issues and agree with you on those issues before we can even discuss whether or not a fetus is human life?

Why must one consider it morally wrong to kill a caterpillar if they think it is morally wrong to kill a butterfly, though?

 

[sakinago]

It is certainly true that those who oppose legal abortion are monsters, and they are stupid monsters for thinking that outlawing abortion will actually end abortion. It will only relegate abortion to the underground, unsanitary, unqualified practitioners who do not have access to proper medical facilities and equipment putting women at enormous risk.

Lets just set the debate about when life begins, whether or not it is a matter of privacy rights, and false equivalency logical fallacies comparing it to murder. The fact is that legal or not, women will have abortions for various reasons, Why not channel the energy in ways that reduce the demand and need for abortion, of which there are many?

I would really like to know how many of the people here who rail against abortion are willing to support the direction of resources to programs that prevent unwanted pregnancies and that provide supports to people who might choose to carry a child to term if they knew that help was available. That includes:

Meaningful and comprehensive sex education
Readily available and affordable birth control
Universal health care'
Affordable Housing
Nutritional programs such as food stamps'
Affordable pre school and day care
A living minimum wage
Laws against discrimination.

If you are opposed to any or all of these things but claim to be " pro life" let me tell you something . YOU ARE NOT PRO LIFE . You are a monster, and a stupid, hypocritical monster at that.

I’ve already said before in this thread, on your first period, you send a form into government, what BC you want, gets delivered to your door (or procedure paid for) automatically. Then say bye bye to abortion.

The fact that it still will happen doesn’t make it less than a crime. You could say the exact same thing for murder. But it’s not going to be driven underground to a heavy degree at all. Rare cases here and there, for people that can afford it (it’s going to be stupid expensive, this isn’t Botox injections we’re talking about) and still stupid enough to not use BC. That’s a fair compromise, no excuse for abortion (we’ll allow the .00001% cases of incest and rape). Don’t start with the BC failure shit either, we’re talking 99.9% efficacy rates outside of non-chemical IUDs that are still very effective. (which just means legal lingo for covering our ass if you did not use correctly). If you’re worried about condoms breaking, use lube...way easier problem to solve than getting an abortion. Take your pills, get mirena, use a condom, they’re free and delivered to your door when you need them.

That is quite an unhinged rant that completely fails to address the issue that I raised and exposed your delusion that outlawing abortion will end abortion. It is not just about birth control either. To be clear, I am not "pro abortion" I am pro choice. There is a big difference.

My question to you was, and still is : Are you really pro life? Again, these are the questions that I asked which you avoided.

Do you support......

Meaningful and comprehensive sex education
Readily available and affordable birth control
Universal health care'
Affordable Housing
Nutritional programs such as food stamps'
Affordable pre school and day care
A living minimum wage
Laws against discrimination.

This is a test to prove that you are really pro life as opposed to being "pro fetus" like most of you hysterical anti abortion people are.

There’s nothing unhinged about what I said. Whenever you hear this type of ridiculous characterization, like “unhinged”, you know you’re hovering over the target, because someone sound in their beliefs doesn’t have to resort to tactics like that and the rest of your entire deflectionary, red herring response that followed. Your issues are putting the cart, and an entire engineless RV before the horse. Whether or not a fetus is human life takes priority over anything else...because if it is, abortion is killing human life. So, if it is killing, we need to stop it obviously. It’s like not including the people who stopped looking for work, or who work part time hoping for something better into the unemployment numbers (which we still do). You’re not addressing the issue at hand when you do that...except in this case it’s life and death.

I’ll answer your stupid, red herring questions once, then no more. This is the stupidest tactic I’ve ever heard of BTW, calling people who think a fetus is human life pro-death because they don’t 100% agree with Bernie Sanders. Outrageous, and you need to grow up and have an honest conversation for once. Anyway moving on.

Meaningful comprehensive sex education, yes. Where specifically does it fail now? And how would you improve it? I’m open to any suggestions.

Available and affordable BC. I just answered that, this will be me third time now. I’m all for government sending the pill straight to your door or paying for your IUD. All for free. Why you’d have to ask that again is beyond me, unless you don’t really listen, or read, and this is a cookie cutter response. It isn’t like it’s not readily available and un-affordable now. It might be one of the most available and affordable things out there. Coffee might have it beat, but not much else. Any place that sells aspirin (very affordable and available by any metric you want to use) will also sell condoms for cheaper. There’s still vending machines with condoms in fucking bathrooms, that’s pretty damn available. You can go to a pharmacy, any pharmacy, they’re everywhere, and pick up pills for 40 bucks I think. That’ll last you a month and is just about the same cost as using a condom every day. So what exactly is so unaffordable, and unavailable with birth control now?

I’m for universal health care, but that doesn’t mean what I’m guessing you think it means. We should go with the Swiss system, that also happens to be the best in the world, by far. Look it up, I’m sure you’re confusing universal with single payer. Single payer may be fine and dandy for the average person with a cold, or basically anything treatable by a general practitioner, but blows for anyone who needs specialized care. This is why virtually all the countries that have single payer systems, still have private health insurance industries for people who can afford it. If single payer was so wonderful, private insurance obviously would not be needed, and there wouldn’t be a two tier system. At best, socialism is the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people. Again this is when it is run effectively, with people who truly care. Sounds fine and dandy up until you realize that for the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people (utilitarianism), means that by necessity, you need to overlook the minority. The minority when it comes to healthcare are people who need specialized care. Something that the Swiss and US systems have the absolute best in world of, and something that’s pretty lacking in the countries with single payer systems, although you don’t hear too much complaint because it’s a minority. Moving on

Affordable housing. Even with our stupidly inflated housing prices, we have some of the most affordable housing out there. The average home size in America is 2500 sq ft. Contrast that to Europe, where the average is 900 sq ft. So do you want a government that’s already overextended that adds a trillion in debt a year, to make that an average of 3000 sq ft? They can’t cover the entitlements already in place, but sure let’s just give our children more debt, hopefully we’ll be dead by that time.

Pre school. Women gained the right to have full time jobs, now it’s expected of them to have full time jobs in our economy. They lost the right to stay at home with the kids. That’s the current state of affairs. Good for the 20% of women who want to work full time, really shitty for the other 20% who want to be housewives, and also difficult for the rest of the 60% in between who want to have plenty of family time, but want to work as well. If you want to put the financial burden of full time healthcare for free on everyone, it’s going to be really shitty for 80% of women paying for the 20% who want to work full time and have free daycare.

Food stamps already exist. They’re heavily used as well. Used in a way that suggest we never pulled out of the recession properly.

“Living minimum wage”. Show me an instance where this isn’t a job killer and I’ll be aboard. All that does is create less hires, and raises cost of goods. But yea, an 18 year old fry cook deserves 17$ an hour...no, what they need to do instead is get technical training for things like welding if college isn’t the best option for them. There’s tons of the technical jobs out there, but we send all our kids to college that maybe shouldn’t who’ll either drop out, choose a major for a career that doesn’t exist/disappearing, and then are saddled with debt, and go back to their minimum wage job. This is all a bit more nuanced, and a much more complex problem than a simple solution like “well just give them more money” can fix.

We already have laws against discrimination, so this is another idiotic topic that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, or claims that anyone who doesn’t agree with Bernie 100% is pro-death. That’s about as silly as it gets. Can we talk about the real topic that actually involves potentially life and death decisions?

Thank you once again for clearly demonstrating that you are not prolife and in fact bend over backwards to find excuses to trash programs and policies that could and do actually make the lives of children better and encourage women to carry a child to term. Fucking hypocrite!!

That’s more of what an “unhinged” response looks like. I laid out my reasons why I don’t agree with all your red herring solutions. Not in a complete way as possible, because I don’t want to spend that much effort on red herrings. You didn’t address any of those reasons, and skipped right on over into I’m a “fucking hypocrite”.

What will help women have better lives for them and their children, is to use birth control, and wait to have kids when your ready. It helps if you have a dedicated partner to help out with kids too. That’s whats going to help the most, there’s a shit ton of evidence for that, outside of the obvious that is wait for kids when you’re ready, and two parents are better than one most of the time. Do you hear me calling you a hypocrite because I don’t hear you aspousing those views first? No. Because it’s a stupid and unfair line of reasoning. Just like it’s stupid to believe that government is able to cover for all the irresponsible choices people make in a way that actually addresses the root problem, or in a way that doesn’t cost the US witnin a decade triple the amount of money that’s actually circulating around the globe (that’s coming from Vox btw).

 

[jc456]

Thank you for that brilliant, thoughtful and informative commentary. As always, you excel in your boost the level of intellectual discourse to the highest level. We can all learn so much from you. God bless.

Now, perhaps you would like to comment on the issues that I raised that can actually reduce the demand for abortion. Please tell us more about how pro life you are .

Why would I respond to your issues? They’re all excuses not issues. Fetus is alive, you can’t change that no matter how many times you wish to. People are expected to be responsible for themselves correct?

Are you just playing stupid games or do you really believe your own bullshit. Do you know what a straw man argument is...?? You just used that logical fallacy where you attribute an argument to me that I didn't make , and then refute it to claim victory. Where the fuck did I ever say that a fetus is not alive. ?

All of the things that I listed are in fact issue that can be used to reduce the need for abortion. That is my point that you refuse to deal with, but instead, keep bleating about the evils of abortion If you had any decency and intelligence, you would embrace them all. Apparently you have neither

And I said personal fking responsibility!

Is a fetus live?

A fetus is alive. So is an ameba. Being alive does not make either a human being. You jackasses keep blathering about abortion being murder, but when children are subjected to inadequate medical care, poor nutrition, and are made to live in squalor, that is also murder...just the slow kind

Yea but a human fetus is a human being...it’s not anything else. Still has the same 46 chromosomes we do. May not be in the same stage of development as a human adult, but neither are infants, toddlers, kids, pre-teens, teens, etc. A maggot isn’t a different species from a fly. A caterpillar or cocoon isn’t a different species from a butterfly. If you believe it’s morally wrong to kill a butterfly, it’s morally wrong to kill caterpillars too. A fetus doesn’t magically turn human once it passes through the birth canal.

How many kids are dying of malnutrition in the US? How many people are dying of malnutrition in the US? How many kids are dying due to inadeqeunt medical care? And you’re still trying to claim this line of thinking isn’t a red herring. By implying that if someone is pro-choice, they automatically must want people to starve on the streets? They have to discuss this issues and agree with you on those issues before we can even discuss whether or not a fetus is human life?

An ostrich egg when it hatches becomes what?

Can someone take a bald eagle egg? Why?

 

[WEATHER53]

It is certainly true that those who write such a thread title feel, not think, that they are judge and jury

 

[sakinago]

Why would I respond to your issues? They’re all excuses not issues. Fetus is alive, you can’t change that no matter how many times you wish to. People are expected to be responsible for themselves correct?

Are you just playing stupid games or do you really believe your own bullshit. Do you know what a straw man argument is...?? You just used that logical fallacy where you attribute an argument to me that I didn't make , and then refute it to claim victory. Where the fuck did I ever say that a fetus is not alive. ?

All of the things that I listed are in fact issue that can be used to reduce the need for abortion. That is my point that you refuse to deal with, but instead, keep bleating about the evils of abortion If you had any decency and intelligence, you would embrace them all. Apparently you have neither

And I said personal fking responsibility!

Is a fetus live?

A fetus is alive. So is an ameba. Being alive does not make either a human being. You jackasses keep blathering about abortion being murder, but when children are subjected to inadequate medical care, poor nutrition, and are made to live in squalor, that is also murder...just the slow kind

Yea but a human fetus is a human being...it’s not anything else. Still has the same 46 chromosomes we do. May not be in the same stage of development as a human adult, but neither are infants, toddlers, kids, pre-teens, teens, etc. A maggot isn’t a different species from a fly. A caterpillar or cocoon isn’t a different species from a butterfly. If you believe it’s morally wrong to kill a butterfly, it’s morally wrong to kill caterpillars too. A fetus doesn’t magically turn human once it passes through the birth canal.

How many kids are dying of malnutrition in the US? How many people are dying of malnutrition in the US? How many kids are dying due to inadeqeunt medical care? And you’re still trying to claim this line of thinking isn’t a red herring. By implying that if someone is pro-choice, they automatically must want people to starve on the streets? They have to discuss this issues and agree with you on those issues before we can even discuss whether or not a fetus is human life?

Why must one consider it morally wrong to kill a caterpillar if they think it is morally wrong to kill a butterfly, though?

Because they’re the same thing. Just because you don’t see wings and a probiscus, and just because we have different names for the stages of its life, doesn’t mean it isn’t the same life form. Just like because a kid doesn’t have a fully developed brain, reproductive system, and is smaller, doesn’t mean it’s a different life form. Caterpillars actually go through an insanely different path of development vs mammals and pretty much anything else out there. In the cocoon they basically dissolve into a liquid and reform into a butterfly. But, it’s still the same life form, even though it essientially liquifies, as hard as that is to imagine (at least that blew my mind when I heard about it).

 

[sakinago]

Thank you for that brilliant, thoughtful and informative commentary. As always, you excel in your boost the level of intellectual discourse to the highest level. We can all learn so much from you. God bless.

Now, perhaps you would like to comment on the issues that I raised that can actually reduce the demand for abortion. Please tell us more about how pro life you are .

Why would I respond to your issues? They’re all excuses not issues. Fetus is alive, you can’t change that no matter how many times you wish to. People are expected to be responsible for themselves correct?

Are you just playing stupid games or do you really believe your own bullshit. Do you know what a straw man argument is...?? You just used that logical fallacy where you attribute an argument to me that I didn't make , and then refute it to claim victory. Where the fuck did I ever say that a fetus is not alive. ?

All of the things that I listed are in fact issue that can be used to reduce the need for abortion. That is my point that you refuse to deal with, but instead, keep bleating about the evils of abortion If you had any decency and intelligence, you would embrace them all. Apparently you have neither

It’s not a straw man argument to call out your red herrings. The issue is, whether or not it is life. It’s like debating how to lower murder rates without debating whether or not murder is wrong, and instead saying murder is still gonna happen anyway. That’s a pretty good example of a red herring, and that’s exactly what your doing. And in this scenario, you don’t have to agree with all the propositions to reduce murder if you don’t think they’re going to work with evidence backing it up.

The debate is not about whether the fetus is alive, the issue is by what right do you strip a woman of right to determine whether or not to bring this fetus to term. And you’re continually using the murder of the living as a comparison, which is a straw man because they’re aren’t the same thing and you know it.

You’ve lost the argument on every point you’ve posited to this point and this one isn’t going to work either.

When we want to prevent murders, we look at the causes of violence: poverty, lack of opportunity, easy availability of weapons, influence of gangs, lack of protection of vulnerable citizens. Because just making murder illegal doesn’t work.

Where have you suggested doing anything towards looking at the root causes of abortion and making changes in the poverty, lack of health care, lack of job protections for low wage workers, and lack of maternity leave to reduce abortions?

So what if it isn’t the same as a human adult, neither are infants, kids, toddlers, etc. A fetus is still human life, that’s not a strawman that’s a fact. We know with 100% certainty that a fetus is not considered living, and that it is not considered anything other than human. So if it isn’t human, or isn’t living, what exactly is it? Some sort of magical state of limbo? The only thing that’s kind of living but not really is a virus, just because they don’t have an ability to reproduce on their own, they have to hijack a different organisms reproduction methods.

Don’t know what points of mine you debunked, unless you telepathically sent me an argument as to why some people can infringe in others rights and that’s somehow still considered a right. Didn’t get that message. I wouldn’t call posting stats that you don’t understand, or are unrelated, or actually prove my points as debunking either.

And we’ve already outlawed murder. Murder is killing someone not out of self-defense of ones own life. If abortion is killing human life, and is not done in self defense of ones life...why are we looking for methods of reducing it before outlawing it?

 

[Dragonlady]

Thank you for that brilliant, thoughtful and informative commentary. As always, you excel in your boost the level of intellectual discourse to the highest level. We can all learn so much from you. God bless.

Now, perhaps you would like to comment on the issues that I raised that can actually reduce the demand for abortion. Please tell us more about how pro life you are .

Why would I respond to your issues? They’re all excuses not issues. Fetus is alive, you can’t change that no matter how many times you wish to. People are expected to be responsible for themselves correct?

Are you just playing stupid games or do you really believe your own bullshit. Do you know what a straw man argument is...?? You just used that logical fallacy where you attribute an argument to me that I didn't make , and then refute it to claim victory. Where the fuck did I ever say that a fetus is not alive. ?

All of the things that I listed are in fact issue that can be used to reduce the need for abortion. That is my point that you refuse to deal with, but instead, keep bleating about the evils of abortion If you had any decency and intelligence, you would embrace them all. Apparently you have neither

It’s not a straw man argument to call out your red herrings. The issue is, whether or not it is life. It’s like debating how to lower murder rates without debating whether or not murder is wrong, and instead saying murder is still gonna happen anyway. That’s a pretty good example of a red herring, and that’s exactly what your doing. And in this scenario, you don’t have to agree with all the propositions to reduce murder if you don’t think they’re going to work with evidence backing it up.

I maintain that it is a strawman argument for the reasons stated. I moved on from the issue of what is life and when it begins because it is futile and we will never agree. In addition, no matter what is done, abortion will not be eradicated and in fact, there are indications that there will be more abortions if outlawed vs. if we implement the programs and policies that I suggested. It is just plain stupid to think that you can end abortion

My point is not a red herring because it relates directly to the issue of reducing abortion which is the only practical goal. However, you fucking hypocrites wont admin=t any of this and keep beating the pro fetus drum. Calling yourselves pro life is a sick joke.

The only reason you skipped the issue because it “won’t be agreed upon”, is because it’s the issue the pro choice side doesn’t want to discuss or have an honest conversation about. There’s an absolute zero chance to come to any sort of agreement or understanding if one side keeps avoiding the topic. The fact that no one will ever change their minds so why bother is a total cop-out. I used to be pro-choice back in the day when I never really honestly considered the issue, that was up until I was challenged and didn’t have anything to answer that challenge. Here’s my point and case, I’m not going to agree with all of your solutions to help curb abortions, yet you want to debate that instead of the main point of abortion. So why aren’t you applying the same standard of “it won’t be agreed upon so why bother”, there? The only reason I can think of why someone would do that is because it is a very common red herring that also doubles as a strawman to demonize the other side at the same time in the “see you don’t agree with helping out people in the way I want too, therefore you’re actually pro-death.” Some of your solutions don’t even address curbing abortion at all. If people have more affordable housing, they’re going to have safer sex? If we raise minimum wage they’re going to start having safer sex? If they have Medicare for all they’re going to have safer sex? Maybe there’s a slight argument for that one.

And what evidence is there that abortions will increase if outlawed. Are you suggesting that women would get pregnant, find and pay top dollar to a doctor or other shady character willing to break the law to provide an abortion, out of protest to the abortion ban? Or will the ban somehow cause people to forget to use birth control, and have to again find and pay top dollar to shady “doctors” to preform an abortion. I don’t see any scenario where it would make sense banning abortion would somehow increase it. What seems more likely is that it’ll decrease abortions pretty significantly for a few reasons. It’s going to be illegal, so more people will probably get their shit together and actually use birth control because there’s no more “safety net” backup plan for them. Those who still are negligent in the use of BC, aren’t going to have the option to go to PP to get one, they’d have to look to these shady “doctors” and pay top dollar to get it taken care of in a seedy motel somewhere. Those reasons seem way more likely to be the case than whatever other scenario there’d be that’d somehow increase abortion.

You’re the one coming here and posting lies and then claiming the left won’t have an honest discussion.

You have yet to have an honest discussion about the causes of abortion, and you have consistently avoided the question of a woman’s right to security of person.

You push the fiction that immorality and hedonism are driving the abortion rate instead of poverty and lack of financial or job security for poor pregnant women.

The American abortion rate is a strong statement about the failure of public policy to protect the poorest and weakest in society. On that much we can agree. If public policy provided more protections and security for the living parents, there would be no need to protect the unborn.

 

[Montrovant]

Are you just playing stupid games or do you really believe your own bullshit. Do you know what a straw man argument is...?? You just used that logical fallacy where you attribute an argument to me that I didn't make , and then refute it to claim victory. Where the fuck did I ever say that a fetus is not alive. ?

All of the things that I listed are in fact issue that can be used to reduce the need for abortion. That is my point that you refuse to deal with, but instead, keep bleating about the evils of abortion If you had any decency and intelligence, you would embrace them all. Apparently you have neither

And I said personal fking responsibility!

Is a fetus live?

A fetus is alive. So is an ameba. Being alive does not make either a human being. You jackasses keep blathering about abortion being murder, but when children are subjected to inadequate medical care, poor nutrition, and are made to live in squalor, that is also murder...just the slow kind

Yea but a human fetus is a human being...it’s not anything else. Still has the same 46 chromosomes we do. May not be in the same stage of development as a human adult, but neither are infants, toddlers, kids, pre-teens, teens, etc. A maggot isn’t a different species from a fly. A caterpillar or cocoon isn’t a different species from a butterfly. If you believe it’s morally wrong to kill a butterfly, it’s morally wrong to kill caterpillars too. A fetus doesn’t magically turn human once it passes through the birth canal.

How many kids are dying of malnutrition in the US? How many people are dying of malnutrition in the US? How many kids are dying due to inadeqeunt medical care? And you’re still trying to claim this line of thinking isn’t a red herring. By implying that if someone is pro-choice, they automatically must want people to starve on the streets? They have to discuss this issues and agree with you on those issues before we can even discuss whether or not a fetus is human life?

Why must one consider it morally wrong to kill a caterpillar if they think it is morally wrong to kill a butterfly, though?

Because they’re the same thing. Just because you don’t see wings and a probiscus, and just because we have different names for the stages of its life, doesn’t mean it isn’t the same life form. Just like because a kid doesn’t have a fully developed brain, reproductive system, and is smaller, doesn’t mean it’s a different life form. Caterpillars actually go through an insanely different path of development vs mammals and pretty much anything else out there. In the cocoon they basically dissolve into a liquid and reform into a butterfly. But, it’s still the same life form, even though it essientially liquifies, as hard as that is to imagine (at least that blew my mind when I heard about it).

Yes, but you are assuming that anyone's morality must be based on the fact that a caterpillar and butterfly are the same life form; you are assuming that the fact they are wildly different developmental stages of that form of life is unimportant to any moral belief. I'm asking why someone can't consider the differences in stage of life when making a moral judgement? Moral judgements are often based on very different reasoning from person to person.

The caterpillar to butterfly process IS pretty fascinating (and disgusting, really, lol).

 

[sakinago]

And I said personal fking responsibility!

Is a fetus live?

A fetus is alive. So is an ameba. Being alive does not make either a human being. You jackasses keep blathering about abortion being murder, but when children are subjected to inadequate medical care, poor nutrition, and are made to live in squalor, that is also murder...just the slow kind

Yea but a human fetus is a human being...it’s not anything else. Still has the same 46 chromosomes we do. May not be in the same stage of development as a human adult, but neither are infants, toddlers, kids, pre-teens, teens, etc. A maggot isn’t a different species from a fly. A caterpillar or cocoon isn’t a different species from a butterfly. If you believe it’s morally wrong to kill a butterfly, it’s morally wrong to kill caterpillars too. A fetus doesn’t magically turn human once it passes through the birth canal.

How many kids are dying of malnutrition in the US? How many people are dying of malnutrition in the US? How many kids are dying due to inadeqeunt medical care? And you’re still trying to claim this line of thinking isn’t a red herring. By implying that if someone is pro-choice, they automatically must want people to starve on the streets? They have to discuss this issues and agree with you on those issues before we can even discuss whether or not a fetus is human life?

Why must one consider it morally wrong to kill a caterpillar if they think it is morally wrong to kill a butterfly, though?

Because they’re the same thing. Just because you don’t see wings and a probiscus, and just because we have different names for the stages of its life, doesn’t mean it isn’t the same life form. Just like because a kid doesn’t have a fully developed brain, reproductive system, and is smaller, doesn’t mean it’s a different life form. Caterpillars actually go through an insanely different path of development vs mammals and pretty much anything else out there. In the cocoon they basically dissolve into a liquid and reform into a butterfly. But, it’s still the same life form, even though it essientially liquifies, as hard as that is to imagine (at least that blew my mind when I heard about it).

Yes, but you are assuming that anyone's morality must be based on the fact that a caterpillar and butterfly are the same life form; you are assuming that the fact they are wildly different developmental stages of that form of life is unimportant to any moral belief. I'm asking why someone can't consider the differences in stage of life when making a moral judgement? Moral judgements are often based on very different reasoning from person to person.

The caterpillar to butterfly process IS pretty fascinating (and disgusting, really, lol).

One could, but not all judgments are moral even though they can be reasoned out. One could use reason to justify anything as moral, we see that all the time. One could reason that, “I don’t see wings, I don’t see six legs, I don’t see a colorful pattern, therefore this isn’t the same life form.” Thats using reason, that’s coming to a judgment, it doesn’t make it correct.

 

[Dragonlady]

It is certainly true that those who oppose legal abortion are monsters, and they are stupid monsters for thinking that outlawing abortion will actually end abortion. It will only relegate abortion to the underground, unsanitary, unqualified practitioners who do not have access to proper medical facilities and equipment putting women at enormous risk.

Lets just set the debate about when life begins, whether or not it is a matter of privacy rights, and false equivalency logical fallacies comparing it to murder. The fact is that legal or not, women will have abortions for various reasons, Why not channel the energy in ways that reduce the demand and need for abortion, of which there are many?

I would really like to know how many of the people here who rail against abortion are willing to support the direction of resources to programs that prevent unwanted pregnancies and that provide supports to people who might choose to carry a child to term if they knew that help was available. That includes:

Meaningful and comprehensive sex education
Readily available and affordable birth control
Universal health care'
Affordable Housing
Nutritional programs such as food stamps'
Affordable pre school and day care
A living minimum wage
Laws against discrimination.

If you are opposed to any or all of these things but claim to be " pro life" let me tell you something . YOU ARE NOT PRO LIFE . You are a monster, and a stupid, hypocritical monster at that.

I’ve already said before in this thread, on your first period, you send a form into government, what BC you want, gets delivered to your door (or procedure paid for) automatically. Then say bye bye to abortion.

The fact that it still will happen doesn’t make it less than a crime. You could say the exact same thing for murder. But it’s not going to be driven underground to a heavy degree at all. Rare cases here and there, for people that can afford it (it’s going to be stupid expensive, this isn’t Botox injections we’re talking about) and still stupid enough to not use BC. That’s a fair compromise, no excuse for abortion (we’ll allow the .00001% cases of incest and rape). Don’t start with the BC failure shit either, we’re talking 99.9% efficacy rates outside of non-chemical IUDs that are still very effective. (which just means legal lingo for covering our ass if you did not use correctly). If you’re worried about condoms breaking, use lube...way easier problem to solve than getting an abortion. Take your pills, get mirena, use a condom, they’re free and delivered to your door when you need them.

That is quite an unhinged rant that completely fails to address the issue that I raised and exposed your delusion that outlawing abortion will end abortion. It is not just about birth control either. To be clear, I am not "pro abortion" I am pro choice. There is a big difference.

My question to you was, and still is : Are you really pro life? Again, these are the questions that I asked which you avoided.

Do you support......

Meaningful and comprehensive sex education
Readily available and affordable birth control
Universal health care'
Affordable Housing
Nutritional programs such as food stamps'
Affordable pre school and day care
A living minimum wage
Laws against discrimination.

This is a test to prove that you are really pro life as opposed to being "pro fetus" like most of you hysterical anti abortion people are.

There’s nothing unhinged about what I said. Whenever you hear this type of ridiculous characterization, like “unhinged”, you know you’re hovering over the target, because someone sound in their beliefs doesn’t have to resort to tactics like that and the rest of your entire deflectionary, red herring response that followed. Your issues are putting the cart, and an entire engineless RV before the horse. Whether or not a fetus is human life takes priority over anything else...because if it is, abortion is killing human life. So, if it is killing, we need to stop it obviously. It’s like not including the people who stopped looking for work, or who work part time hoping for something better into the unemployment numbers (which we still do). You’re not addressing the issue at hand when you do that...except in this case it’s life and death.

I’ll answer your stupid, red herring questions once, then no more. This is the stupidest tactic I’ve ever heard of BTW, calling people who think a fetus is human life pro-death because they don’t 100% agree with Bernie Sanders. Outrageous, and you need to grow up and have an honest conversation for once. Anyway moving on.

Meaningful comprehensive sex education, yes. Where specifically does it fail now? And how would you improve it? I’m open to any suggestions.

Available and affordable BC. I just answered that, this will be me third time now. I’m all for government sending the pill straight to your door or paying for your IUD. All for free. Why you’d have to ask that again is beyond me, unless you don’t really listen, or read, and this is a cookie cutter response. It isn’t like it’s not readily available and un-affordable now. It might be one of the most available and affordable things out there. Coffee might have it beat, but not much else. Any place that sells aspirin (very affordable and available by any metric you want to use) will also sell condoms for cheaper. There’s still vending machines with condoms in fucking bathrooms, that’s pretty damn available. You can go to a pharmacy, any pharmacy, they’re everywhere, and pick up pills for 40 bucks I think. That’ll last you a month and is just about the same cost as using a condom every day. So what exactly is so unaffordable, and unavailable with birth control now?

I’m for universal health care, but that doesn’t mean what I’m guessing you think it means. We should go with the Swiss system, that also happens to be the best in the world, by far. Look it up, I’m sure you’re confusing universal with single payer. Single payer may be fine and dandy for the average person with a cold, or basically anything treatable by a general practitioner, but blows for anyone who needs specialized care. This is why virtually all the countries that have single payer systems, still have private health insurance industries for people who can afford it. If single payer was so wonderful, private insurance obviously would not be needed, and there wouldn’t be a two tier system. At best, socialism is the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people. Again this is when it is run effectively, with people who truly care. Sounds fine and dandy up until you realize that for the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people (utilitarianism), means that by necessity, you need to overlook the minority. The minority when it comes to healthcare are people who need specialized care. Something that the Swiss and US systems have the absolute best in world of, and something that’s pretty lacking in the countries with single payer systems, although you don’t hear too much complaint because it’s a minority. Moving on

Affordable housing. Even with our stupidly inflated housing prices, we have some of the most affordable housing out there. The average home size in America is 2500 sq ft. Contrast that to Europe, where the average is 900 sq ft. So do you want a government that’s already overextended that adds a trillion in debt a year, to make that an average of 3000 sq ft? They can’t cover the entitlements already in place, but sure let’s just give our children more debt, hopefully we’ll be dead by that time.

Pre school. Women gained the right to have full time jobs, now it’s expected of them to have full time jobs in our economy. They lost the right to stay at home with the kids. That’s the current state of affairs. Good for the 20% of women who want to work full time, really shitty for the other 20% who want to be housewives, and also difficult for the rest of the 60% in between who want to have plenty of family time, but want to work as well. If you want to put the financial burden of full time healthcare for free on everyone, it’s going to be really shitty for 80% of women paying for the 20% who want to work full time and have free daycare.

Food stamps already exist. They’re heavily used as well. Used in a way that suggest we never pulled out of the recession properly.

“Living minimum wage”. Show me an instance where this isn’t a job killer and I’ll be aboard. All that does is create less hires, and raises cost of goods. But yea, an 18 year old fry cook deserves 17$ an hour...no, what they need to do instead is get technical training for things like welding if college isn’t the best option for them. There’s tons of the technical jobs out there, but we send all our kids to college that maybe shouldn’t who’ll either drop out, choose a major for a career that doesn’t exist/disappearing, and then are saddled with debt, and go back to their minimum wage job. This is all a bit more nuanced, and a much more complex problem than a simple solution like “well just give them more money” can fix.

We already have laws against discrimination, so this is another idiotic topic that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, or claims that anyone who doesn’t agree with Bernie 100% is pro-death. That’s about as silly as it gets. Can we talk about the real topic that actually involves potentially life and death decisions?

Thank you once again for clearly demonstrating that you are not prolife and in fact bend over backwards to find excuses to trash programs and policies that could and do actually make the lives of children better and encourage women to carry a child to term. Fucking hypocrite!!

That’s more of what an “unhinged” response looks like. I laid out my reasons why I don’t agree with all your red herring solutions. Not in a complete way as possible, because I don’t want to spend that much effort on red herrings. You didn’t address any of those reasons, and skipped right on over into I’m a “fucking hypocrite”.

What will help women have better lives for them and their children, is to use birth control, and wait to have kids when your ready. It helps if you have a dedicated partner to help out with kids too. That’s whats going to help the most, there’s a shit ton of evidence for that, outside of the obvious that is wait for kids when you’re ready, and two parents are better than one most of the time. Do you hear me calling you a hypocrite because I don’t hear you aspousing those views first? No. Because it’s a stupid and unfair line of reasoning. Just like it’s stupid to believe that government is able to cover for all the irresponsible choices people make in a way that actually addresses the root problem, or in a way that doesn’t cost the US witnin a decade triple the amount of money that’s actually circulating around the globe (that’s coming from Vox btw).

More than half of the women getting abortions are already married or cohabiting with the father in a committed relationship do that argument is also a red herring.

13% of the women profess to be evangelicals and 2/3 profess to be Christian of some denomination or other.

But fully 80% profess to be POOR.