It is better that this woman was raped, than that she use a gun on her hip to stop it...right?

[Penelope]

Cliché.

 

[Penelope]

It's still only a small fraction of ours.

And it has nothing to do with their gun laws.

So why are you gun nuts trying to pretend it is? Gun nuts are constantly posting threads about percentage changes in England's crime rate and trying to tie that to their gun regulation. Make up your mind.

What?

I have said all along that gun laws do not affect the murder rate.
You're mixing me up with someone else.

The only point I make about the UK is that their gun laws did not reduce their murder rate and they haven't.

In fact gun laws cannot be shown to have directly lowered the murder rate anywhere.

www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

International evidence and comparisons have long been offered
as proof of the mantra that more guns mean more deaths and that
fewer guns, therefore, mean fewer deaths.1 Unfortunately, such
discussions are all too often been afflicted by misconceptions and
factual error and focus on comparisons that are unrepresentative.
It may be useful to begin with a few examples. There is a compound
assertion that (a) guns are uniquely available in the United
States compared with other modern developed nations, which is
why (b) the United States has by far the highest murder rate.
Though these assertions have been endlessly repeated, statement
(b) is, in fact, false and statement (a) is substantially so.

Which modern developed nations have as many guns owned by the people as the US?

Law abiding people owning guns is not now and has never been the problem and since there are no stats on how many criminals illegally possess weapons your question is meaningless in relation to the topic

And did you read the paper I linked to? because you'll find that it covers much of what has been discussed here

You mean like the shooter in LV, a law abiding citizen.

 

[Geaux4it]

 

[danielpalos]

In Britain, they have taken guns away from law abiding people.....and now their gun crime rate has gone through the roof, and their violent crimes, like rape....are going through the roof.......

And according to anti gunners here on U.S. message...and everywhere else....it is better that women be raped, and possibly murdered, than that they should have the option of using a concealed or open carried gun to stop that rape......

This woman is in Britain...she got off of a London Bus....and was raped....according to anti gunners, this is better than if she had a gun and used it to drive off, capture, injure or kill her attacker...right?

Since they do not believe anyone should carry a gun, this is the preferred outcome....right?

Young woman raped after getting off late-night bus

London.

The victim, aged in her 20s, had got off the bus and was walking down an alleyway when she was attacked from behind and raped, police said.

The incident happened just after midnight as the woman made her way from Millwood Road to Brantwood Road in St Paul's Cray, Bromley.


DC James White, who leads the investigation, said: "This incident took place in a secluded area, and the attack has left the woman traumatised by her ordeal.

She got "ambushed by a superior force", it even happens to the military.

 

[danielpalos]

What the OP just doesn't understand is that when that woman carries a gun, and has to use it against a rapist, she might miss when she shoots and she might end up hitting a 3 year old girl picking flowers in her yard.

So its best she just get raped.

Should she try to argue and claim she has a girl friend who is complaining she isn't getting used enough, and if he wants to see her, instead.

 

[Skull Pilot]

And it has nothing to do with their gun laws.

So why are you gun nuts trying to pretend it is? Gun nuts are constantly posting threads about percentage changes in England's crime rate and trying to tie that to their gun regulation. Make up your mind.

What?

I have said all along that gun laws do not affect the murder rate.
You're mixing me up with someone else.

The only point I make about the UK is that their gun laws did not reduce their murder rate and they haven't.

In fact gun laws cannot be shown to have directly lowered the murder rate anywhere.

www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

International evidence and comparisons have long been offered
as proof of the mantra that more guns mean more deaths and that
fewer guns, therefore, mean fewer deaths.1 Unfortunately, such
discussions are all too often been afflicted by misconceptions and
factual error and focus on comparisons that are unrepresentative.
It may be useful to begin with a few examples. There is a compound
assertion that (a) guns are uniquely available in the United
States compared with other modern developed nations, which is
why (b) the United States has by far the highest murder rate.
Though these assertions have been endlessly repeated, statement
(b) is, in fact, false and statement (a) is substantially so.

Which modern developed nations have as many guns owned by the people as the US?

Law abiding people owning guns is not now and has never been the problem and since there are no stats on how many criminals illegally possess weapons your question is meaningless in relation to the topic

And did you read the paper I linked to? because you'll find that it covers much of what has been discussed here

You mean like the shooter in LV, a law abiding citizen.

My god how many times are you people going to trot out that lame "everyone is a criminal until they're not" argument.

If that's what you really think then apply that standard to every law on the books already.

You're not a child beater but then again it's just a matter of time until you are so let's do something about you now.

 

[2aguy]

Switzerland, moron. They have fully automatic rifles in their homes.....

Try again dumb ass
View attachment 153368

Moron.....they have fully automatic military weapons in their homes......and they don't have a high murder rate...dumb ass....normal, law abiding people who own guns do not drive the crime or murder rate....moron.

My remarks were in response to this

" There is a compound assertion that (a) guns are uniquely available in the United
States compared with other modern developed nations, which is
why (b) the United States has by far the highest murder rate.
Though these assertions have been endlessly repeated, statement
(b) is, in fact, false and statement (a) is substantially so."

I have just proven that guns are uniquely available in the US compared with other modern developed nations , and you freely admit we have a much higher murder rate. You were saying?

The reply is easy....our gun murder rate has nothing to do with law abiding people owning guns....and that European culture, shocked by 2 world wars, and protected from crime by a culture that submitted easily to authority has been behind us in violence.....that is changing......their culture can no longer civilize poor, young males raised by single teenage girls who have no husbands to father their young males......

And as our last 21 years have shown.....again......law abiding people owning and carrying guns, does not increase the gun murder rate or the gun crime rate or the violent crime rate.......

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 16.3 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2017...guess what happened...
-- gun murder down 49%
--gun crime down 75%
--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.

And Britain Confirms exactly what I have stated.....in that they have banned and confiscated guns, on an island nation......and their gun murder rate didn't change except to increase.....their gun crime rate increased, and their violent crime rate increased......

Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online

The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.

The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent .




========



Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show

Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.

=========



Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News

Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.

Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime

A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.

----

He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.

-----

Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.

Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.

-----

Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.

He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.

Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.

He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”



Violent crime on the rise in every corner of the country, figures suggest

But analysis of the figures force by force, showed the full extent of the problem, with only one constabulary, Nottinghamshire, recording a reduction in violent offences.

The vast majority of police forces actually witnessed double digit rises in violent crime, with Northumbria posting a 95 per cent increase year on year.

Of the other forces, Durham Police recorded a 73 per cent rise; West Yorkshire was up 48 per cent; Avon and Somerset 45 per cent; Dorset 39 per cent and Warwickshire 37 per cent.

Elsewhere Humberside, South Yorkshire, Staffordshire, Essex, Hertfordshire, Kent, Wiltshire and Dyfed Powys all saw violence rise by more than a quarter year on year.

All that to say their rate is a small fraction of ours.

No.....all that to clear up your lie....you are lying when you say their gun control laws kept their gun murder rate low...and that is a lie...their gun control didn't lower their gun murder rate, and the 89% increase in gun crime 10 years after their ban and confiscation and their increase of 23% across the country last year and 42% in London all by itself show you are lying...their gun control laws are not stopping criminals....

The Gun-Ban Fetish


But even island nations have fared no better. One would think that these would be the ideal experiments. After the U.K. banned handguns in January 1997, their homicide rate rose by 50 percent over the next eight years. It came back down to around its earlier levels only after a 14 percent increase in the number of police. Even more dramatic increases in homicide rates occurred in Jamaica and the Republic of Ireland after their gun bans, with sixfold or sevenfold increases.

 

[2aguy]

Moron.....they have fully automatic military weapons in their homes......and they don't have a high murder rate...dumb ass....normal, law abiding people who own guns do not drive the crime or murder rate....moron.

My remarks were in response to this

" There is a compound assertion that (a) guns are uniquely available in the United
States compared with other modern developed nations, which is
why (b) the United States has by far the highest murder rate.
Though these assertions have been endlessly repeated, statement
(b) is, in fact, false and statement (a) is substantially so."

I have just proven that guns are uniquely available in the US compared with other modern developed nations , and you freely admit we have a much higher murder rate. You were saying?

The reply is easy....our gun murder rate has nothing to do with law abiding people owning guns....and that European culture, shocked by 2 world wars, and protected from crime by a culture that submitted easily to authority has been behind us in violence.....that is changing......their culture can no longer civilize poor, young males raised by single teenage girls who have no husbands to father their young males......

And as our last 21 years have shown.....again......law abiding people owning and carrying guns, does not increase the gun murder rate or the gun crime rate or the violent crime rate.......

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 16.3 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2017...guess what happened...
-- gun murder down 49%
--gun crime down 75%
--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.

And Britain Confirms exactly what I have stated.....in that they have banned and confiscated guns, on an island nation......and their gun murder rate didn't change except to increase.....their gun crime rate increased, and their violent crime rate increased......

Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online

The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.

The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent .




========



Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show

Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.

=========



Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News

Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.

Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime

A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.

----

He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.

-----

Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.

Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.

-----

Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.

He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.

Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.

He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”



Violent crime on the rise in every corner of the country, figures suggest

But analysis of the figures force by force, showed the full extent of the problem, with only one constabulary, Nottinghamshire, recording a reduction in violent offences.

The vast majority of police forces actually witnessed double digit rises in violent crime, with Northumbria posting a 95 per cent increase year on year.

Of the other forces, Durham Police recorded a 73 per cent rise; West Yorkshire was up 48 per cent; Avon and Somerset 45 per cent; Dorset 39 per cent and Warwickshire 37 per cent.

Elsewhere Humberside, South Yorkshire, Staffordshire, Essex, Hertfordshire, Kent, Wiltshire and Dyfed Powys all saw violence rise by more than a quarter year on year.

All that to say their rate is a small fraction of ours.

And that is not because of their gun control law...since their gun control laws do not stop their criminals from getting and using guns....moron.

So if their gun laws don't effect their gun crime, why are you constantly whining about them?

Their gun laws do effect their gun crime...it increases it

Their gun control laws do not lower their gun crime rate...

...since their normal, law abiding people can't use guns to stop their criminals....it has also caused their regular crime rate to go up to massive levels.......

And I bring them up because fools like you want to do what they did....even though Americans use their guns to stop violent criminals 1,500,000 times a year...which means taking the guns away from those law abiding people means those people will be raped, robbed and murdered instead of stopping them......

That is why this question is relevant as well...

 

[KissMy]

Fox News Hannity’s gun fantasy of stopping Vegas type shooter was so ridiculous "Dude, you couldn’t even protect women from getting sexually harassed in your own building and now you’re Batman? Calm down. Calm down, man.” - TREVOR NOAH